• Ghosts and the paranormal
    608 replies, posted
[QUOTE=PeejsterM;40695021]I believe that paranormal activities occur on our plane of reality, yes. I've found no reason to assume ghosts are malevolent. I've stated once before, in another thread, that ghosts repeatedly open and close doors at my place, and have done so for the last two years. I'm also a bit perplexed by the fact that not all stories about "ghosts" match up. I've never had any harmful experiences with spectres. The worst I've ever gotten was shivers up my spine, to be truthful.[/QUOTE] That's not ghosts it's the invisible purple space elephants. They shapeshift into demon imps when inside and they will open and close your doors. I've seen then a few times myself.
[QUOTE=PeejsterM;40695021]I believe that paranormal activities occur on our plane of reality, yes. I've found no reason to assume ghosts are malevolent. I've stated once before, in another thread, that ghosts repeatedly open and close doors at my place, and have done so for the last two years. I'm also a bit perplexed by the fact that not all stories about "ghosts" match up. I've never had any harmful experiences with spectres. The worst I've ever gotten was shivers up my spine, to be truthful. The wind cannot close doors inside of a home. The doors are all wooden, too, so there is no mechanism that moves them into place. ... well, yes, it can, but it's not [i]windy[/i] over here.[/QUOTE] What proof do you have that ghosts are closing your doors? The doors in my house if not fully closed would sometimes pop into place and close or open, I thought this was ghosts when I was younger but realized it was just the doors themselves doing it. Things that I thought were voices and whispering were actually just the wind and people outside at night. If you can't explain something don't attribute it to "ghosts", for all you know it could be aliens with cloaking devices, or the rats in your house are actually invisble and strong enough to open and close doors. Those are all unlikely right? Well ghosts aren't exactly a logical explanation. Attributing the unexplainable to something like a ghost is just a quick way out because ghosts are unexplainable themselves. Shivers are not signs of "ghosts" being around, I get shivers if I think about things that scare me so that could explain it.
Look, in my opinion, there's way more evidence that ghosts do exist rather than they don't. You say personal experiences aren't proof? You tell that to somebody who's had shit literally thrown at them from across the room when they're the only ones in there. Science can't explain everything sorry to break it to you guys.
[QUOTE=iJeax;40999936]Look, in my opinion, there's way more evidence that ghosts do exist rather than they don't. You say personal experiences aren't proof? You tell that to somebody who's had shit literally thrown at them from across the room when they're the only ones in there. Science can't explain everything sorry to break it to you guys.[/QUOTE] The thing about personal experience is that if you seek, and achieve it, then you too are burdened with being doubted by others as to what you experienced. It is only when they themselves follow in your footsteps that they too join the ranks. Experience is everything, scientific experimentation is based on replicating experiences in an empiric manner. It sets forth guidelines of action that are to be followed by those who wish to experience the same.
[QUOTE=iJeax;40999936]Look, in my opinion, there's way more evidence that ghosts do exist rather than they don't.[/quote] Then do provide it. [quote]You say personal experiences aren't proof? You tell that to somebody who's had shit literally thrown at them from across the room when they're the only ones in there.[/quote] Then do provide video or picture evidence. In the case of poltergeists, the witness is either incredibly deluded, lying, or is being tricked by somebody else. Rarely it might be something falling off a bookshelf. [quote]Science can't explain everything sorry to break it to you guys.[/QUOTE] Science explains reality, and it is my only tool to use on reality. Also in most MD threads, the burden of proof is on you to prove ghosts exist. This subforum stresses scientific methodology quite strongly in the case of the paranormal.
[QUOTE=iJeax;40999936]Look, in my opinion, there's way more evidence that ghosts do exist rather than they don't. You say personal experiences aren't proof? You tell that to somebody who's had shit literally thrown at them from across the room when they're the only ones in there. Science can't explain everything sorry to break it to you guys.[/QUOTE] What evidence? And witnesses are the least reliable evidence in any case, they can be persuaded to lie for fame/money, be delusional, or tricked. Saying science can't explain everything is ridiculous and pretty much means you don't have a good understanding of what science is. There are all kinds of science's and all are meant to study something, to figure out how reality works. Things that haven't been explained by science will be explained in the future. There is no evidence that ghosts exist and they also break established rules of reality therefore it can be safely presumed the ghosts do not exist at all.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41000336]Then do provide it. Then do provide video or picture evidence. In the case of poltergeists, the witness is either incredibly deluded, lying, or is being tricked by somebody else. Rarely it might be something falling off a bookshelf. Science explains reality, and it is my only tool to use on reality. Also in most MD threads, the burden of proof is on you to prove ghosts exist. This subforum stresses scientific methodology quite strongly in the case of the paranormal.[/QUOTE] Yeah because I'm going to have a camera ready in that situation? Just because the only proof is someones word it doesn't mean they're lying lmfao or delusional. If it hasn't happened to you, but it's happened to someone else and the proof being only their word or not, you can't really speak because it hasn't happened to you. [editline]12th June 2013[/editline] If there truly is such thing as the supernatural, higher powers etcetc than that being is already more powerful than any human being. And what is science? The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural. Human beings are the ones doing the studying, we only know so much and no matter how much more studying they do, if there are some things we aren't meant to know about then it's going to stay that way. Scientists are only humans, we can't know everything as much as we'd like to think we can.
[QUOTE=iJeax;41012576]Yeah because I'm going to have a camera ready in that situation? Just because the only proof is someones word it doesn't mean they're lying lmfao or delusional. If it hasn't happened to you, but it's happened to someone else and the proof being only their word or not, you can't really speak because it hasn't happened to you.[/quote] Bring me evidence, or have your views dismissed. Science does not work that way. [quote]If there truly is such thing as the supernatural, higher powers etcetc than that being is already more powerful than any human being. And what is science? The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural. Human beings are the ones doing the studying, we only know so much and no matter how much more studying they do, if there are some things we aren't meant to know about then it's going to stay that way. Scientists are only humans, we can't know everything as much as we'd like to think we can.[/QUOTE] Science is the best method we have for working out reality. It doesn't tell you what is right, only what is wrong (which is almost as good). The good news is that through this system, we have worked out that the people who argue in favour of ghosts are, well, wrong.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41012799]Bring me evidence, or have your views dismissed. Science does not work that way.[/QUOTE] Bring me evidence that it didn't happen and I'll say your right. Exactly, you have no evidence that it didn't happen. There's more evidence in someones word saying it did happen rather than having no evidence at all that it didn't.
[QUOTE=iJeax;41013390]Bring me evidence that it didn't happen[/QUOTE] This isn't how debating works. The burden of proof is on you to prove that ghosts are real. The default position is that they don't exist.
I believe in ghosts and whatnot. There is definitely something out there. How would all of these strange things happen if something like that didn't exist? My mom used to live in Guam and in there house they would constantly hear people "walking" up and down the hallway. TVs would turn themselves on, and blinds would close. She also told me that one day she and my aunt were playing in the Ouji board and when they played it was circling the letter V multiple times. When they were finished playing my mom had what looked like a V scratched into her leg.
from a scientific standpoint, i don't find it unreasonable that there is a force out there that we don't understand, i mean we're still years away from even being able to replicate the brain on a computer, let alone know where true consciousness arises from, also ive been in a haunted building when shit has happened for no apparent reason, a 20lb deep freezer door just doesn't swing open and pop doesn't just fly out in a locked restaurant
[QUOTE=iJeax;41013390]Bring me evidence that it didn't happen and I'll say your right. Exactly, you have no evidence that it didn't happen. There's more evidence in someones word saying it did happen rather than having no evidence at all that it didn't.[/QUOTE] This argument actually goes against you. There is no evidence that ghosts exist and in fact they defy the rules of reality. Like I said before witnesses are the least reliable evidence, they can be hoaxers, crazies, and people who've been tricked or mis-identified something. There has never been real evidence of ghosts, despite all these cases of them. When real investigators actually do something they find nothing at all or the real natural cause for it. Then there's T.V. Investigators who fake everything for views. Without any evidence to support your point and the fact that they contradict actual facts makes the logical viewpoint to assume they are not real. It's easy to dismiss skeptics because they can't disprove you, but if I told that giant invisible flying pink pig-hippos gods fly through the air every day how would you disprove me, they're invisible and are higher powers. The world we live in is reality, and reality is not something that can ever be changed, defied, or destroyed. It is everything and has always been the way it has been, real. Never before have super-natural entities been proven to exist. Demons, ghost, and other spirits don't make sense in any form and thus can not be real.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Shit happens that we can't explain. It could be ghosts, it could be the wind, Hell, it could be walking fucking skeletons for all we know. I've seen some stuff, especially since I worked in a graveyard in Scotland, of course I something would happen.
Hmm. I think we can all agree that the idea of a ghost is faulty, but what about metaphysical things in general? Out of body experiences, etc?
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;41015462]I've said it before, I'll say it again. Shit happens that we can't explain. It could be ghosts,but could be the wind, Hell, it could be walking fucking skeletons for all we know. I've seen some stuff, especially since I worked in a graveyard in Scotland, of course I something would happen.[/QUOTE] You think the way I think. To me, science can't prove much when it comes to the paranormal and what happens after you die etcetc, sure they can have their beliefs and reasoning behind it, but it's never 100% set in stone truth. If I see something with my own eyes then I'll believe it. If something gets thrown at you from across the room, no windows open, no one else in the room, and you aren't fucking insane, then what else could have caused that to happen other than a higher being/ghosts etc?
[QUOTE=iJeax;41015559]You think the way I think. To me, science can't prove much when it comes to the paranormal and what happens after you die etcetc, sure they can have their beliefs and reasoning behind it, but it's never 100% set in stone truth. If I see something with my own eyes then I'll believe it. If something gets thrown at you from across the room, no windows open, no one else in the room, and you aren't fucking insane, then what else could have caused that to happen other than a higher being/ghosts etc?[/QUOTE] You have to prove that a metaphysical entity caused it.
Quite frankly, I don't believe in ghosts or the boogie man. However, due to my personal experiences I do believe that there is some sort of higher power out there (with my bet on the God of the Christian Bible). I know that someone's gonna come in and ask me to provide "proof" other than my first hand account, but really, I can't provide anything other than that. For me, I've had experiences that I can only describe as miraculous, things that have proven to me as an individual that there is something beyond what we scientifically see. I say, believe what you will. For 99% of most ghost stories, I am skeptical at best. It's good to be wary of what people say, as there are plenty of people out there who just like to spin a tall tale. The only thing I can really say is that it's hard to prove that the Invisible Man is hiding in your house if the only proof you have is one of his dirty socks he left under the sink, which coincidentally looks like one of your own.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41015760]You have to prove that a metaphysical entity caused it.[/QUOTE] Okay lets say a metaphysical entity didn't cause. What else did? A person with an invisibility cloak or something? haha
[QUOTE=iJeax;41016198]Okay lets say a metaphysical entity didn't cause. What else did? A person with an invisibility cloak or something? haha[/QUOTE] You are making up a hypothetical situation.
[QUOTE=iJeax;41016198]Okay lets say a metaphysical entity didn't cause. What else did? A person with an invisibility cloak or something? haha[/QUOTE] It may sound very strange to you, but you can't automatically assume something's "unnatural metaphysical entity" if you don't have other explaination. Because just as well I can make up something and tell you it's what I think it is. That chair moved over there, on the other side of the room with no one there? With windows shut and stuff? Well don't worry, it's just local micro-earthquake that is focused right under the chair. This is as plausible as a "ghost manifesting" explaination. The only thing that makes "ghosts", "gods" and other metaphysical stuff [b]seem[/b] more plausible are old books and fairytales. Nothing else, including absolute absence of recorded evidence. Yeah, I'll announce my position. In recorded history, nothing has ever gone out of bounds of existing reality, nothing defied the laws of physics we know today. On the opposite, recorded history knows numerous instances of people lying and being delusional. Seems obvious what to prefer.
When did story-telling become irrelevant to conveying evidence? Science is simply gathered statements concerning empirical data. What we choose to call them should be referred to as personal choice, since when two explanations can be created, and none of which explains the subjective experience, it simply comes down to preference. How else do we convey the facts of the first world war without hypothetical situations in the experienced trenches in no-mans-land in a meaningful or interesting manner? Teaching comes down to conveying your belief system to the potential listener, and when a different mind rejects the idea of energy, how does the reference of "ghosts" become an unpreferable manifestation in that individuals memory? It creates something tangible of what's experienced as intangible, the only difference is semantics. Reality is different to every sentient being, and sometimes the thrill of non-scientific approach is the more memorable one to some. It becomes a question of moral to tell a child that Santa Clause really doesn't exist, doesn't it?
[QUOTE=iJeax;41015559]You think the way I think. To me, science can't prove much when it comes to the paranormal and what happens after you die etcetc, sure they can have their beliefs and reasoning behind it, but it's never 100% set in stone truth. If I see something with my own eyes then I'll believe it. If something gets thrown at you from across the room, no windows open, no one else in the room, and you aren't fucking insane, then what else could have caused that to happen other than a higher being/ghosts etc?[/QUOTE] Why is your first assumption ghosts when you cannot explain it? Nothing in life works that way, whenever something happens you don't have cameras everywhere to see how it happened but explaining something that happened with something you can't explain makes no sense. It's a cop out way of explaining things. And your eyes can lie to you, I'm pretty sure some insane people don't know that they're insane. A door in my house used to slam shut all the time when nobody was doing anything near it. My dad assumed it was ghosts that had done but I later found it was some broken mechanism in the door. Explanations don't just come up immediatley, you have to investigate, look for clues, and connect things together. If you can't find out what did it you still can't just say its ghosts because that's just a cop out, you can't explain it therefor it must be the unexplainable. Humans used to not know what went beyond the sky and made up many things about it, even thinking heaven was just on the clouds. We couldn't figure it out so we assumed that some mystical shit must happen up there. When we advanced in knowledge we found out what really happens in the sky, which still happens today. When you can't find an explanation for something, there is a perfectly natural explanation that you just can't find at the moment. Unless you can bring me tangible proof that ghosts do in fact exist, then I'll just take the logical choice and say they don't exist. [QUOTE=iJeax;41016198]Okay lets say a metaphysical entity didn't cause. What else did? A person with an invisibility cloak or something? haha[/QUOTE] [I]Yeah that's ridiculous, dead people becoming spirits and a God's wrath is much more likely.[/I]
[QUOTE=SelfishDragon;41023461]Why is your first assumption ghosts when you cannot explain it? Nothing in life works that way, whenever something happens you don't have cameras everywhere to see how it happened but explaining something that happened with something you can't explain makes no sense. It's a cop out way of explaining things. And your eyes can lie to you, I'm pretty sure some insane people don't know that they're insane. A door in my house used to slam shut all the time when nobody was doing anything near it. My dad assumed it was ghosts that had done but I later found it was some broken mechanism in the door. Explanations don't just come up immediatley, you have to investigate, look for clues, and connect things together. If you can't find out what did it you still can't just say its ghosts because that's just a cop out, you can't explain it therefor it must be the unexplainable. Humans used to not know what went beyond the sky and made up many things about it, even thinking heaven was just on the clouds. We couldn't figure it out so we assumed that some mystical shit must happen up there. When we advanced in knowledge we found out what really happens in the sky, which still happens today. When you can't find an explanation for something, there is a perfectly natural explanation that you just can't find at the moment. Unless you can bring me tangible proof that ghosts do in fact exist, then I'll just take the logical choice and say they don't exist. [I]Yeah that's ridiculous, dead people becoming spirits and a God's wrath is much more likely.[/I][/QUOTE] Look at the end of the day, you can get as scientific about it as you want but in the end, we're only human and you don't know everything and I don't know everything, there are just some things we aren't meant to know. You could be wrong, I could be wrong. /story
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41015760]You have to prove that a metaphysical entity caused it.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;41012799]Bring me evidence, or have your views dismissed. Science does not work that way. Science is the best method we have for working out reality. It doesn't tell you what is right, only what is wrong (which is almost as good). The good news is that through this system, we have worked out that the people who argue in favour of ghosts are, well, wrong.[/QUOTE] Science assumes the world is real. No Proof. Checkmate.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41012799]Bring me evidence, or have your views dismissed. Science does not work that way. Science is the best method we have for working out reality. It doesn't tell you what is right, only what is wrong (which is almost as good). The good news is that through this system, we have worked out that the people who argue in favour of ghosts are, well, wrong.[/QUOTE] I would argue an animal species exists that has very much the resemblance of a ghost.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;41026634]I would argue an animal species exists that has very much the resemblance of a ghost.[/QUOTE] What is this species? [editline]14th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=businessPawn;41026528]Science assumes the world is real. No Proof. Checkmate.[/QUOTE] Science is a philosophy. Basically it assumes that an objective reality exists outside of our own perception, and that in order to study said reality, you use the scientific method to work out exactly how everything works and fits together.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41026658]What is this species?[/QUOTE] Many species looks scary enough to induce ghost stories among the people.
I once focused on somebody over the internet and got a strange flash of thoughts that felt incomplete and disconnected from my own. These thoughts turned out to describe something near them. But I haven't been able to induce any similar-feeling close eye hallucinations.
[QUOTE=iJeax;41024237]Look at the end of the day, you can get as scientific about it as you want but in the end, we're only human and you don't know everything and I don't know everything, there are just some things we aren't meant to know. You could be wrong, I could be wrong. /story[/QUOTE] That's not how it works, "both of us could be wrong" is not a good argument at all to have a belief in something ridiculous. If I told that there were invisble people following you around that you couldn't touch, I'd most likely be bullshitting you or crazy. Could you prove me wrong? Nope, they're beyond your power and go past your petty science as a human, I could say. What do you mean not "meant to know". We're not meant to know anything at all but through logical thinking and the use of the scientific method we've gone very far in technology. There are no mystical beings playing around with us, and there never has been.
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