[QUOTE=lotusking;35428123]great arguement, if they "don't fucking exist" whats the point of making a debate topic?[/QUOTE]
Because the burden of proof is on you :)
Posted in an old thread:
My house is fairly modern, about 30 years old. Anyhow, an old man lived here before my family did, and became ill. He died a few weeks later, and the house was sold by his relatives to us. Anyhow, strange things happen. I hear foot steps upstairs, when I know for a fact that no-one is there. I had some of my friends stop over one night, and they were scared shitless by the kitchen door closing by itself. I think the scariest thing for me has been seeing a dark shadow in the office. The lights were off, and the only light source was the blue glow coming from the computer screen. As I walked up the stairs, all the lights were off, yet I thought I saw someone standing in the doorway to the office. I walked towards it, and it seemed to move around the corner, yet when I looked around the corner, no-one was there. I stood there for a good few minutes, absolutely fucking terrified.
I always try to rationalise things, so I always check for a normal explanation if anything happens. Personally, I'm on the fence about ghosts.
[QUOTE=TtIiVv;35483043]Posted in an old thread:
My house is fairly modern, about 30 years old. Anyhow, an old man lived here before my family did, and became ill. He died a few weeks later, and the house was sold by his relatives to us. Anyhow, strange things happen. I hear foot steps upstairs, when I know for a fact that no-one is there. I had some of my friends stop over one night, and they were scared shitless by the kitchen door closing by itself. I think the scariest thing for me has been seeing a dark shadow in the office. The lights were off, and the only light source was the blue glow coming from the computer screen. As I walked up the stairs, [B]all the lights were off, yet I thought I saw someone standing in the doorway to the office.[/B] I walked towards it, and it seemed to move around the corner, yet when I looked around the corner, no-one was there. I stood there for a good few minutes, absolutely fucking terrified.
I always try to rationalise things, so I always check for a normal explanation if anything happens. Personally, I'm on the fence about ghosts.[/QUOTE]
Well of course you did, it was fucking dark there, there's your explanation.
And the footsteps and doors closing are not fucking ghosts. I thought we're living in the 19th century
[QUOTE=Joppari;35483430]Well of course you did, it was fucking dark there, there's your explanation.
And the footsteps and doors closing are not fucking ghosts. I thought we're living in the 19th century[/QUOTE]
What else could it be? Modern house, no drafts, all the people in one room.....
[QUOTE=TtIiVv;35483869]What else could it be? Modern house, no drafts, all the people in one room.....[/QUOTE]
You don't fucking declare unexplainable things as paranormal things.
Grab your brain and think.
I live in an old house from before the German occupation of Norway. German troops set up a center in the building, which at that time was a hotel.
SO, one day, a guy ringed on the doorbell, and told us he was the owner of the house some years ago (He had sold it to some people, then they had sold it to us, probably) Anyways this guy asked me if we had heard some stuff from the third floor. Me, not knowing what he was talking about, said No, why? Apparently, the Germans had been walking around in the halls there while they lived there.
When I told him that we hadn't heard anything, he just wished me good bye, and then him and the two asian ladies drove away in the relatively new car he had.
We hear creaking all the time, but that's because it's an old house, and the wood expands and contracts with the temperature.
[QUOTE=Joppari;35484141]You don't fucking declare unexplainable things as paranormal things.
Grab your brain and think.[/QUOTE]
What do you say unexplainable things are then?
[QUOTE=TtIiVv;35484611]What do you say unexplainable things are then?[/QUOTE]
Something not properly researched.
[QUOTE=TtIiVv;35484611]What do you say unexplainable things are then?[/QUOTE]
Not something I pulled out of my ass, that's for certain. You said it yourself, it's unexplainable.
Had shit piled up in the middle of my room (everything that was in it save furnature.) when I was a small kid. Woke up to it and started crying as it scared me to no end. Do not know the science behind it since the only other in the house was dead asleep and I dont think my dad would waste the little sleep time he could get (worked at a factory) to mentally scar me. Got a couple of other odd experiences too. My stance on ghosts(or what is perceived as a ghost) is neutral. Never even had an imaginary friend, belief in god, santa etc I'm not the type that 'puts myself' into these kind of scenerios for some sort of pleasure/thrill.
[QUOTE=Chicken_Chaser;35493054]Had shit piled up in the middle of my room (everything that was in it save furnature.) when I was a small kid. Woke up to it and started crying as it scared me to no end. Do not know the science behind it since the only other in the house was dead asleep and I dont think my dad would waste the little sleep time he could get (worked at a factory) to mentally scar me. Got a couple of other odd experiences too. My stance on ghosts(or what is perceived as a ghost) is neutral. Never even had an imaginary friend, belief in god, santa etc I'm not the type that 'puts myself' into these kind of scenerios for some sort of pleasure/thrill.[/QUOTE]
I don't get it, you had stuff piled up in your room and it made you cry? Why did you cry?
I'm open to them being real. Nobody can conclusively say they are or aren't though. I've seen some pretty compelling arguments both ways, but both sides had holes in their tales.
God I'd love for it to be proven to be real though. I want to meet a friendly-ish ghost that's willing to chat a bit.
[QUOTE=halflife_123;35493601]I don't get it, you had stuff piled up in your room and it made you cry? Why did you cry?[/QUOTE]
I think it's that thing you do when you're a kid. You see a bunch of dark shapes in your room when you're about to sleep and instantly imagine that it's all kinds of things.
[QUOTE=TestECull;35493822]I'm open to them being real. Nobody can conclusively say they are or aren't though. [/QUOTE]
True, though with the current evidence stacked against them, it is best to assume they do not exist. This is because I want all mediums/etc to be jailed as frauds or at least heavily fined.
[QUOTE=TestECull;35493822]I've seen some pretty compelling arguments both ways, but both sides had holes in their tales.[/QUOTE]
What? Science doesn't invent tales full of holes. It researches a "Paranormal" event and then explains natural causes for it. I have also yet to see a true compelling argument for ghosts. Even then, science would not be invalidated by it. Ghosts would become a topic of research within science and be effectively explained as part of the natural world. Ghosts can be compatible with it, the only problem is that we haven't found much in the way of evidence for ghosts.
[QUOTE=TestECull;35493822]God I'd love for it to be proven to be real though. I want to meet a friendly-ish ghost that's willing to chat a bit. [/QUOTE]
Perhaps this is why you are more on the fence than being somewhat more rational, for you seem to want them to exist, despite our understanding of the universe saying otherwise.
This is a waste of discussion; its 2012, not the goddamn middle ages. There are no supernatural "forces" or "entities". There are observed processes and natural laws that can explain what our minds would readily assume is magic or paranormal activity and all of your anecdotal personal experiences are useless.
[QUOTE=David29;35344684]like how Newton's law of gravity being superceded by Eistein's theory of relativity explains why a smaller, but denser, object than Earth would have a greater gravitational pull.[/QUOTE]
Forgetting the rest of your post for a sec, this is factually wrong. Newton predicts that a smaller, denser object than Earth has a greater gravitation pull.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35494696]
What? Science doesn't invent tales full of holes. It researches a "Paranormal" event and then explains natural causes for it. I have also yet to see a true compelling argument for ghosts. Even then, science would not be invalidated by it.[/quote] Every 'scientific' study I've ever come across on the subject has had dodgy parts....usually the methodology, but sometimes you have to wonder if the enhancement they do is somehow affecting the evidence. How do we know that filtering out the background static and boosting the volume of a certain frequency range that reportedly contains a ghost voice 1200% isn't introducing artifacts in the audio, for example? How do we know that voice is even a ghost and not a very faint whisper from a crewman, yell from outside, something like that? The video evidence is also so damn fuzzy and grainy that you can't conclusively say either way. That orb might be a bug, it could be an artifact, or it might be a ball of spirit energy, but the footage is too fucking grainy to tell and running it through editing software in an attempt to clean things up and figure out what it is may introduce artifacts that shoot all of the image's credibility to hell.
We don't have concrete evidence in either direction. Plenty of compelling evidence, but if you scrutinize it close enough you'll find bits where there's still some doubt, doesn't matter which side's evidence you look into.
[quote]Perhaps this is why you are more on the fence than being somewhat more rational, for you seem to want them to exist, despite our understanding of the universe saying otherwise.[/QUOTE]
I also want warp drives and time travelling DeLoreans to work. Doesn't mean they will ever be built in a functional manner. But like I said, I'm on the fence. They could be real, they could be bullshit, and every piece of evidence I've seen in either direction has dodgy bits that make it not concrete. When that concrete evidence shows up I will go with whatever direction that concrete evidence points. I'm equally open to them being real as being bullshit.
[QUOTE=TestECull;35501559]Every 'scientific' study I've ever come across on the subject has had dodgy parts....usually the methodology, but sometimes you have to wonder if the enhancement they do is somehow affecting the evidence. How do we know that filtering out the background static and boosting the volume of a certain frequency range that reportedly contains a ghost voice 1200% isn't introducing artifacts in the audio, for example? How do we know that voice is even a ghost and not a very faint whisper from a crewman, yell from outside, something like that? The video evidence is also so damn fuzzy and grainy that you can't conclusively say either way. That orb might be a bug, it could be an artifact, or it might be a ball of spirit energy, but the footage is too fucking grainy to tell and running it through editing software in an attempt to clean things up and figure out what it is may introduce artifacts that shoot all of the image's credibility to hell.
[/QUOTE]
No 'scientific' studies consist of people running around with cameras and microphones in haunted places, what you described sounds like what you get on your average ghost hunting programme and they certainly aren't ran by scientists.
Those things are just plain bullshit and it works, now literally everyone gets scared of darkness
One thing is for sure when a person dies that day or the next day it "WILL" rain. So something does happen when you die and this debunks the idea of reincarnation or pure blackness after death.
Replace word ghost as 'gnome' or 'troll' or 'bigfoot' in this thread and you'd end up with similar arguments. No proof of its existence, but no proof of it's not existence
[QUOTE=Joppari;35512229]Replace word ghost as 'gnome' or 'troll' or 'bigfoot' in this thread and you'd end up with similar arguments. No proof of its existence, but no proof of it's not existence[/QUOTE]
You can replace the word with any other unfalsifiable claim for that matter.
How would you go about proving something doesn't exist? Think about that, i mean REALLY think about that.
How do you prove that faeries don't exist at the bottom of your garden for example? Do you look at your garden in great detail, and then after not seeing any, can you say confidently that faeries do not exist? But what if someone says they're invisible, do you then use a heat sensor to see if you can see any, and when you don't you assume they don't exist? But what if someone says they're MAGICAL and humans can't see them, now what do you do? How do you go about "proving" they don't exist? How can one prove or disprove an unfasifiable claim? Simple, by taking into consideration the assumption upon which the claim is made, because whether you want to admit it or not, a claim is still just a claim. If I have physically looked for faeries, if I have used methods to try to bolster the claim that faeries exist at the bottom of my garden and have found nothing through my research, did I disprove faeries, or did i fail to present evidence towards their existence? Is there really a difference between these two? If I have failed to present evidence than have I not actually presented evidence towards their non existence? Strictly speaking, we should all be faeries agnostics, and assume that because real empirical evidence does not exist for either side, we can't take a real stance upon whether the claim is true or not right? But that's not what we do, is it?
We find it quite easy in fact to lack belief or believe against many many things simply because they are not part of our social conformities. We look back at history and say "wow look at these people, believing in things like dragons, and sun gods, and human sacrifices, and oracles, and all these other things that we take strictly as mythology" yet shouldn't we learn from our history and understand that such mythological claims should maybe be frowned more upon today then they currently are? Is it not a bit scary that the majority of the world's population believes in such mythological and supernatural concepts on planes similar to those of "ancient times"? Here we are, thousands and thousands of years later with scientific knowledge that vastly outsmarted those times, yet we still fall for the same myths and beliefs that people of those time fell for. Why? Because they are part of our everyday norms. It's a conformity that we are eager to fall towards because everyone else does it and we feel more comfortable being part of accepted social norms and ideals.
What people don't understand is that you can not logically prove something as vague as "ghosts" or "supernatural beings" do not exist. You can, however, prove they can not exist by saying that if they did, it would contradict something that we already know as to be true, and this is currently a leading argument against supernatural claims. They contradict modern scientific studies (especially biology), and there's no premise upon which the argument pro such things can truly be build upon.
[QUOTE=Lilyo;35514036]You can replace the word with any other unfalsifiable claim for that matter.
How would you go about proving something doesn't exist? Think about that, i mean REALLY think about that.
How do you prove that faeries don't exist at the bottom of your garden for example? Do you look at your garden in great detail, and then after not seeing any, can you say confidently that faeries do not exist? But what if someone says they're invisible, do you then use a heat sensor to see if you can see any, and when you don't you assume they don't exist? But what if someone says they're MAGICAL and humans can't see them, now what do you do? How do you go about "proving" they don't exist? How can one prove or disprove an unfasifiable claim? Simple, by taking into consideration the assumption upon which the claim is made, because whether you want to admit it or not, a claim is still just a claim. If I have physically looked for faeries, if I have used methods to try to bolster the claim that faeries exist at the bottom of my garden and have found nothing through my research, did I disprove faeries, or did i fail to present evidence towards their existence? Is there really a difference between these two? If I have failed to present evidence than have I not actually presented evidence towards their non existence? Strictly speaking, we should all be faeries agnostics, and assume that because real empirical evidence does not exist for either side, we can't take a real stance upon whether the claim is true or not right? But that's not what we do, is it?
We find it quite easy in fact to lack belief or believe against many many things simply because they are not part of our social conformities. We look back at history and say "wow look at these people, believing in things like dragons, and sun gods, and human sacrifices, and oracles, and all these other things that we take strictly as mythology" yet shouldn't we learn from our history and understand that such mythological claims should maybe be frowned more upon today then they currently are? Is it not a bit scary that the majority of the world's population believes in such mythological and supernatural concepts on planes similar to those of "ancient times"? Here we are, thousands and thousands of years later with scientific knowledge that vastly outsmarted those times, yet we still fall for the same myths and beliefs that people of those time fell for. Why? Because they are part of our everyday norms. It's a conformity that we are eager to fall towards because everyone else does it and we feel more comfortable being part of accepted social norms and ideals.
What people don't understand is that you can not logically prove something as vague as "ghosts" or "supernatural beings" do not exist. You can, however, prove they can not exist by saying that if they did, it would contradict something that we already know as to be true, and this is currently a leading argument against supernatural claims. They contradict modern scientific studies (especially biology), and there's no premise upon which the argument pro such things can truly be build upon.[/QUOTE]
well thats what i said but i said it in one sentence :v:
I often find myself flip-flopping on my belief in the paranormal. (Ghosts and such) That statement sounds hypocritical, but being an Atheist sort of allows that. Why? Well science is just as much of a guessing game as anything else. What we don't know we try to guess and solve with logic; then we test it with experiments until it can be proven or disproven as a theory. I have had a few paranormal experiences, but I just haven't and inclination of what a ghost would be if souls aren't actually there. I don't think we'll know for quite a long time and I'm ok with that. Part of the excitement of living in this Universe is always having some goal or exciting truth to uncover about the Universe's mysterious internal workings.
If you're an Atheist and believe in paranormal events or "ghosts" I think it's a bit of a contradiction.
I have never experienced anything paranormal, although I have admittedly been terrified of a presence in my room which I could not see, hear, etc. But I'm convinced this was due to lack of sleep and crashing from a sugar rush. I think that paranoia plays a huge roll in whether someone thinks there is a world of "see-through-people" among us.
ur dumb if u dont believe in them
[QUOTE=-Cypher-;35536143]ur dumb if u dont believe in them[/QUOTE]
Excellent argument, care to explain why centuries of research, observation and experiments have more or less proved ghosts wrong for most day to day affairs?
[QUOTE=TestECull;35493822]I'm open to them being real. Nobody can conclusively say they are or aren't though.[/QUOTE]
I'm open to clouds actually being giant floating magical marshmallows. Nobody can conclusively say they are or aren't though.
[editline]12th April 2012[/editline]
And gravity is actually magical invisible elastic ropes tied to everyone's feet. You can't disprove it or prove it though.
[editline]12th April 2012[/editline]
You can say the same about any magical and undetectable thing. You can't disprove that there isn't a giant invisible purple elephant floating above New York City, but you can't prove it either. If you cannot prove it, it is not true. Saying "it can't be proven or disproven" means that "it's not real".
Ok well here is my point of view. Seeing as how there have been so many reports of it there may be something to this ghost fiasco. Although over the years men have reported other entities, many of which has been disproved and explained. Like some other person earlier in the thread said this has yet to be explained and has baffled scientists. I remain mostly open minded to both sides of this debate but I do believe there may be something out there we can't even begin to comprehend. Science is never black and white.
[editline]13th April 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=-Cypher-;35536143]ur dumb if u dont believe in them[/QUOTE]
I do not see how someone could be dumb if they don't believe in something that has no proper evidence. Sorry to be off topic here but, it's like saying we're dumb if we don't believe in god. Not saying I don't believe in ghosts or anything.
[editline]13th April 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=i love necro;35533282]If you're an Atheist and believe in paranormal events or "ghosts" I think it's a bit of a contradiction.
I have never experienced anything paranormal, although I have admittedly been terrified of a presence in my room which I could not see, hear, etc. But I'm convinced this was due to lack of sleep and crashing from a sugar rush. I think that paranoia plays a huge roll in whether someone thinks there is a world of "see-through-people" among us.[/QUOTE]
This makes sense. Sugar crashes sleep deprivation are both known to cause paranoia. I see things when I am tired. Although sometimes this is not the case my dear friend.
[QUOTE=Derpmonster;35550977]Ok well here is my point of view. Seeing as how there have been so many reports of it there may be something to this ghost fiasco. Although over the years men have reported other entities, many of which has been disproved and explained. Like some other person earlier in the thread said this has yet to be explained and has baffled scientists.
[/QUOTE]
Do you have examples of incidents which has baffled scientists?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;35552399]Do you have examples of incidents which has baffled scientists?[/QUOTE]
No, he probably has examples of incidents which have baffled him, and he was too lazy to think it through so he went with flying invisible people as the best explanation.
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