• Ghosts and the paranormal
    608 replies, posted
Do you seriously want to invoke the God of the Gaps? Because that sort of faith has extremely diminishing returns.
What does and does not have a soul? At which point in the tree of life does a species acquire a soul? Ugh, if this was all testable and not total bullshit, I'd totally be an Ectobiologist.
presumably when they can trade it for a bitchin ferarri
[QUOTE=Lankist;35864421]Stuff.[/QUOTE] That explanation is bullshit. People don't just say they see things because they want to believe in them. Yes, our senses aren't the best, but that still doesn't mean ghosts and anything else we don't completely understand is just "bullshit" as most people say. Like I said, I could understand if it were just a few thousand people claiming to have seen such things. But millions? No. How can millions of people claim to see ghosts, and it turns out all of it was just their mind fucking with ALL of them? Now, I could understand the majority of those people claiming to see ghosts were just seeing things. But I don't believe that applies to ALL of the eyewitnesses. I hold this strongly because I've actually seen something of the paranormal (not a ghost) and even though my evidence is lacking, that doesn't mean you or anyone else should completely dismiss anything that isn't scientifically possible. You don't have to believe in it completely, just don't dismiss it completely either.
[QUOTE=sHiBaN;35864727]For me, it's religious. It's personal belief. But I do believe we should have an open mind about these things as we, ourselves do not know every single inch of the universe we are located inside of.[/QUOTE] Just because we don't know everything, doesn't mean you can fill in the gaps with whatever.
i would call a ghost a superhuman suspended in animation from the depths of the earth onto the heavenly bodies that accept them. if ever encountering what you suspect to be a ghost, you may be just visiting the dimension they feel most comfortable with.
[QUOTE=deaded38;35866099]That explanation is bullshit. People don't just say they see things because they want to believe in them.[/QUOTE] Prove they don't. [editline]7th May 2012[/editline] Or are you the only one that can demand proof of a negative?
[QUOTE=sHiBaN;35864727]For me, it's religious. It's personal belief. But I do believe we should have an open mind about these things as we, ourselves do not know every single inch of the universe we are located inside of.[/QUOTE] I have an open mind. But that doesn't mean there's evidence for the paranormal. It just means that once there's evidence, I'll accept it. [QUOTE=deaded38;35866099]That explanation is bullshit. People don't just say they see things because they want to believe in them. Yes, our senses aren't the best, but that still doesn't mean ghosts and anything else we don't completely understand is just "bullshit" as most people say. Like I said, I could understand if it were just a few thousand people claiming to have seen such things. But millions? No. How can millions of people claim to see ghosts, and it turns out all of it was just their mind fucking with ALL of them? Now, I could understand the majority of those people claiming to see ghosts were just seeing things. But I don't believe that applies to ALL of the eyewitnesses. I hold this strongly because I've actually seen something of the paranormal (not a ghost) and even though my evidence is lacking, that doesn't mean you or anyone else should completely dismiss anything that isn't scientifically possible. You don't have to believe in it completely, just don't dismiss it completely either.[/QUOTE] Millions of people believed the world was flat once. There's no scientific evidence that anything paranormal has happened, or exists. That's enough of a conclusion to say that ghosts don't exist, just as you can say that Russel's Teapot doesn't exist.
[QUOTE=Jookia;35866798]Russel's Teapot doesn't exist.[/QUOTE] Silence, heathen. One day. You will rue this day.
[QUOTE=deaded38;35864214]"Science is the only way in the whole world anything can be even remotely true."[/quote] Uhhhhh yes that's actually 100% correct. If something can't be proven with science, it's not real. Everything that we know to be real currently has been proven by science or has at least had evidence to back it up that was determined using the scientific method. Ghosts and paranormal activities have no such scientific proof or evidence. [quote]Seriously, science is not the answer to everything. I'd be more willing to believe in ghosts due to the sheer amount of eyewitnesses alone. Don't even try to tell me that eyewitnesses are unreliable. They're unreliable to a point, but when the number increases to millions, I'm pretty sure that's saying something.[/quote] Only 300 years ago, almost the entire world believed in witches and warlocks. Millions of people claimed to have seen these things and interacted with them for centuries. These occurrences stood on nothing but "eyewitness accounts", yet today, we know them to be false. Why is this? Because Humans are stupid sometimes. We see things that aren't there, and the things we see that we don't understand are interpreted incorrectly. This is ignoring the fact that having eyewitness accounts without other evidence is completely useless and would never be accepted in any scientific community or court of law. Eyewitnesses are used to reaffirm evidence that already exists, not as evidence itself. [quote]On top of this, I'm sure when the world was considered flat, everyone laughed at the person who said it wasn't. They probably said the same thing you said: "You can't prove that, therefore it's a waste of time!" I'm not saying everyone should believe in ghosts, but it is pretty ignorant to ignore the evidence we do have simply because science says "no". On the other hand, if you can give me any reasonable evidence disproving ghosts, my opinion might change a little.[/QUOTE] You are looking at this completely backwards. This is actually as perfect example of why science ALWAYS matters and why nothing is real until it is proven. And ghosts haven't been proven yet. So they ain't real.
[QUOTE=deaded38;35864214]"Science is the only way in the whole world anything can be even remotely true." Seriously, science is not the answer to everything. I'd be more willing to believe in ghosts due to the sheer amount of eyewitnesses alone. Don't even try to tell me that eyewitnesses are unreliable. They're unreliable to a point, but when the number increases to millions, I'm pretty sure that's saying something. On top of this, I'm sure when the world was considered flat, everyone laughed at the person who said it wasn't. They probably said the same thing you said: "You can't prove that, therefore it's a waste of time!" I'm not saying everyone should believe in ghosts, but it is pretty ignorant to ignore the evidence we do have simply because science says "no". On the other hand, if you can give me any reasonable evidence disproving ghosts, my opinion might change a little.[/QUOTE] Science is the answer to an overwhelming majority of questions though, and if you believe in ghosts well I pity you. [editline]8th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=deaded38;35866099]That explanation is bullshit. People don't just say they see things because they want to believe in them. Yes, our senses aren't the best, but that still doesn't mean ghosts and anything else we don't completely understand is just "bullshit" as most people say. Like I said, I could understand if it were just a few thousand people claiming to have seen such things. But millions? No. How can millions of people claim to see ghosts, and it turns out all of it was just their mind fucking with ALL of them? Now, I could understand the majority of those people claiming to see ghosts were just seeing things. But I don't believe that applies to ALL of the eyewitnesses. I hold this strongly because I've actually seen something of the paranormal (not a ghost) and even though my evidence is lacking, that doesn't mean you or anyone else should completely dismiss anything that isn't scientifically possible. You don't have to believe in it completely, just don't dismiss it completely either.[/QUOTE] See heres the problem, we can and will completely dismiss ghosts and shit until someone can give the scientific community a way to test for the presence of souls with every single possible variable accounted for and until then keep your beliefs in ghosts, fairies and unicorns to yourself, cause at the end of the day if you believe in ghosts why not unicorns, trolls and Russells Teapot?
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;35868583]at the end of the day if you believe in ghosts why not unicorns, trolls and Russells Teapot?[/QUOTE] Because millions among millions of people don't claim to see unicorns, trolls and Russell's Teapot.
[QUOTE=deaded38;35878929]Because millions among millions of people don't claim to see unicorns, trolls and Russell's Teapot.[/QUOTE] Truth is not proportional to the amount of people who believe it.
[QUOTE=deaded38;35878929]Because millions among millions of people don't claim to see unicorns, trolls and Russell's Teapot.[/QUOTE] The fact that more people believe in it does not make it any more credible. All the people in the world could believe that the Earth is flat and they would still be wrong.
I am a solid atheist, never believed in this stuff, but in my great grandmothers old apartment two years ago. Well long story short, I heard my name called twice, footsteps in the middle of the night, electronics went on and off, a mirror that was screwed on to the wall just randomly fell over and crashed onto a table in front of me. I really do not know what happened, I guess it was ghosts but I do not want to find out, refuse to go near that house.
[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;35879859]I really do not know what happened, I guess it was ghosts[/QUOTE] Ghost of the gaps.
[QUOTE=deaded38;35878929]Because millions among millions of people don't claim to see unicorns, trolls and Russell's Teapot.[/QUOTE] That's cool and stuff, but that's not how truth works broski, by that idea then witches and dragons exist, I mean after all St. George like full on fought a dragon right? and if witches weren't real then there would have been no need for the Salem witch trials right? Just because a lot of people believe in it doesn't give it any credence.
[QUOTE=deaded38;35878929]Because millions among millions of people don't claim to see unicorns, trolls and Russell's Teapot.[/QUOTE] I had a personal experience with Russells Teapot, but because you can't disprove me that therefore means it is real.
[QUOTE=deaded38;35878929]Because millions among millions of people don't claim to see unicorns, trolls and Russell's Teapot.[/QUOTE] Hundreds of millions of people claim to communicate with Allah every day. I guess that is evidence of his existence.
[QUOTE=Chrille;35886096]Hundreds of millions of people claim to communicate with Allah every day. I guess that is evidence of his existence.[/QUOTE] sadly yes it is infinitesimally small evidence, but evidence nonetheless
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;35886238]sadly yes it is infinitesimally small evidence, but evidence nonetheless[/QUOTE] In the same way, if enough people claim Mr Hubbards works of fiction are true, then that will be evidence as well. Unfortuately, until education improves, people will still believe in bronze age nonsense such as ghosts or gods.
snip i'm fucking dumb
I agree with what you said, OP, however I find myself unsure about where I stand on the subject of ghosts. I've had a couple of experiences throughout my life that I don't seem to be able to find a natural explanation for. My strongest experience was a couple of years ago when I was staying at my mom's place, and she, her husband at the time and his two children went down to the store to do some shopping. I decided to stay home alone, and started watching some TV in the basement. Suddenly I heard a loud noise, and as I turned my head into the direction where the noise came from, I saw that a door that was previously closed was open. I usually tried to keep this door closed, because it made me uneasy to see it being open in the corner of my eye. Without thinking much of it, I was just about to get up from the couch to close it, when it slammed shut. I should also make it clear that there were no open windows or anything around me, so it couldn't have been the wind. Now, after slamming shut with a loud bang, it opened itself again, only to slam itself shut again. It kept doing this, and it freaked me out so much that I ran out of the house in my socks and waited for the others to return home. If ghosts do exist, I don't think they are necessarily dead people. If you believe in different dimensions, perhaps it's something from another dimension slipping into our dimension? Or perhaps it is an unknown entity we simply haven't been able to explain? I'm just speculating wildly here.
[QUOTE=Jocken300;35887481]I agree with what you said, OP, however I find myself unsure about where I stand on the subject of ghosts. I've had a couple of experiences throughout my life that I don't seem to be able to find a natural explanation for. My strongest experience was a couple of years ago when I was staying at my mom's place, and she, her husband at the time and his two children went down to the store to do some shopping. I decided to stay home alone, and started watching some TV in the basement. Suddenly I heard a loud noise, and as I turned my head into the direction where the noise came from, I saw that a door that was previously closed was open. I usually tried to keep this door closed, because it made me uneasy to see it being open in the corner of my eye. Without thinking much of it, I was just about to get up from the couch to close it, when it slammed shut. I should also make it clear that there were no open windows or anything around me, so it couldn't have been the wind. Now, after slamming shut with a loud bang, it opened itself again, only to slam itself shut again. It kept doing this, and it freaked me out so much that I ran out of the house in my socks and waited for the others to return home. If ghosts do exist, I don't think they are necessarily dead people. If you believe in different dimensions, perhaps it's something from another dimension slipping into our dimension? Or perhaps it is an unknown entity we simply haven't been able to explain? I'm just speculating wildly here.[/QUOTE] You can't be serious. You know that a window doesn't need to be open to create a draft right? My door slams itself open and closed all day because of the wind outside. And even if the wind was not the cause, you assume that invisible dead people are the cause? Or "something from another dimmension"? Do you even have any knowledge of the nature of other dimmensions? You are just making stuff up when your own knowledge fails you, further proving my point that peoples' minds fill in the blanks in any way possible, even if it is extremely illogical.
[QUOTE=Jookia;35879103]Truth is not proportional to the amount of people who believe it.[/QUOTE] You're right. But the amount of people who believe in ghosts is evidence to support them. I'm not saying ghosts are absolutely real. I'm saying that (from what I've gathered) there really isn't any evidence to disprove ghosts except for "well, they're fiction, dummy". I'd like to see some decently solid evidence before I can even remotely change my opinion. At this moment, the only evidence I know of is the eyewitnesses, which leads me to believe more in ghosts than not believe in them. [editline]9th May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;35886031]I had a personal experience with Russells Teapot, but because you can't disprove me that therefore means it is real.[/QUOTE] That statement is pure stupid considering I'm talking about millions of people claiming to see paranormal things - not a single user on Facepunch. I'm obviously not going to be inclined to believe one person.
[QUOTE=deaded38;35888417]You're right. But the amount of people who believe in ghosts is evidence to support them. I'm not saying ghosts are absolutely real. I'm saying that (from what I've gathered) there really isn't any evidence to disprove ghosts except for "well, they're fiction, dummy". I'd like to see some decently solid evidence before I can even remotely change my opinion. At this moment, the only evidence I know of is the eyewitnesses, which leads me to believe more in ghosts than not believe in them. [editline]9th May 2012[/editline] That statement is pure stupid considering I'm talking about millions of people claiming to see paranormal things - not a single user on Facepunch. I'm obviously not going to be inclined to believe one person.[/QUOTE] DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW EVIDENCE WORKS? [quote=wikipedia]Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion. Giving or procuring evidence is the process of using those things that are either (a) presumed to be true, or (b) were themselves proven via evidence, to demonstrate an assertion's truth. Evidence is the currency by which one fulfills the burden of proof.[/quote] I done 2 out of 3 years of a forensics science course, I literally fucking eat, breath and shit evidence and trust me, just because people believe in it, doesn't make it proof. I'm not sure if you're incapable of understanding what is being said in this thread so I'll strip it to the bare bones and make it as crystal clear as possible. [b]Faith in the existence of something, does not lend credence to the existence of the idea. This is because the existence of ghosts, faeries and poltergeists etc is not a subjective factor, something can either exist or not, there is no leeway, your belief doesn't make it real or does it become evidence of it's existence.[/b]
[QUOTE=deaded38;35888417]You're right. But the amount of people who believe in ghosts is evidence to support them. I'm not saying ghosts are absolutely real. I'm saying that (from what I've gathered) there really isn't any evidence to disprove ghosts except for "well, they're fiction, dummy". I'd like to see some decently solid evidence before I can even remotely change my opinion. At this moment, the only evidence I know of is the eyewitnesses, which leads me to believe more in ghosts than not believe in them. [editline]9th May 2012[/editline] That statement is pure stupid considering I'm talking about millions of people claiming to see paranormal things - not a single user on Facepunch. I'm obviously not going to be inclined to believe one person.[/QUOTE] Well I don't care if you're going to ignore logic and ask for proof of a negative. If you can only come up with a single piece of evidence based on eyewitness accounts, that does not mean you should accept it as true. What it means is that the concept is probably false since you can't find any real evidence. It isn't proof of ghosts existing.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;35887710]You can't be serious. You know that a window doesn't need to be open to create a draft right? My door slams itself open and closed all day because of the wind outside. And even if the wind was not the cause, you assume that invisible dead people are the cause? Or "something from another dimmension"? Do you even have any knowledge of the nature of other dimmensions? You are just making stuff up when your own knowledge fails you, further proving my point that peoples' minds fill in the blanks in any way possible, even if it is extremely illogical.[/QUOTE] I'm not assuming that it's invisible dead people or creatures from other dimensions. I was simply wildly speculating at the end of my post of what many people experience as dead people could in reality be something completely different and unknown to us. Considering that the door didn't just merely open and close itself, but that it rather swung open completely, and slammed completely shut, and then opened itself again, it's pretty safe to assume that it was no ordinary draft. Adding onto that, it first opened, and only when I was about to get off the couch did it close. After that it started opening and closing itself at a very fast speed constantly, with no pauses. I've also experienced other things as I said in my post. Last year I could barely sleep for weeks, because whenever I tried to go to bed, my bed would start shaking a lot, as if someone grabbed a hold of it and shook it. My dad could even hear it shaking from downstairs, and would ask me what was going on in my room. Again, I'm not directly assuming that this is the result of ghosts (as in dead people or whatever), however I don't have any other explanation for it.
Lack of an explation for something is not proof of a paranormal event. It merely means that those who have experienced it so far lack a proper understanding of the event. I canguarantee you that if you were to get a physics expert to evaluate the swinging door or vibrating bed (two of the most common "paranormal experiences"), a real, scientific explanation would be discovered for these happenings. Adding speculation to the end of your post is irrelevant and unnecessary if you yourself don't even believe it.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;35888801]Lack of an explation for something is not proof of a paranormal event. It merely means that those who have experienced it so far lack a proper understanding of the event. I canguarantee you that if you were to get a physics expert to evaluate the swinging door or vibrating bed (two of the most common "paranormal experiences"), a real, scientific explanation would be discovered for these happenings. Adding speculation to the end of your post is irrelevant and unnecessary if you yourself don't even believe it.[/QUOTE] I agree, the lack of an explanation of something isn't proof of a paranormal event, nor have I stated that it is. I never claimed to actually believe in ghosts, all I said was that I am unsure where I stand on the matter due to these things that have happened to me. As I can't explain them, and others have experienced similar things, that's when you start speculating.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.