• When's a man not a man; when's a woman not a woman
    171 replies, posted
Here are my thoughts: Body and mind are not linked. Your "mental" gender is not decided by your physical gender. Some people are just born in the wrong body. Just like any other "malfunction" happens when life is created, you can be as unlucky as getting wrong body. Some men like to dress up as women, act like women, be treated like women. I dunno why, maybe they get off on it or they just like the feeling. Some on the other hand, they don't do it for the "kick". They do it because it's who they are.
Well doommarine, did you ever think that maybe these self image issues come from the fact that she's transgender? It isn't exactly a very accepted thing. A transgender individual is going to be hurt by the preconceived gender roles more than other people will be. [editline]5th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Nick Lomax;30927790] Body and mind are not linked. Your "mental" gender is not decided by your physical gender. Some people are just born in the wrong body. Just like any other "malfunction" happens when life is created, you can be as unlucky as getting wrong body. Some men like to dress up as women, act like women, be treated like women. I dunno why, maybe they get off on it or they just like the feeling. Some on the other hand, they don't do it for the "kick". They do it because it's who they are.[/QUOTE] These two sentences describe two different things, just so you know. The first is transgender, the second is crossdressing. They aren't the same.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30927806]Well doommarine, did you ever think that maybe these self image issues come from the fact that she's transgender? It isn't exactly a very accepted thing. A transgender individual is going to be hurt by the preconceived gender roles more than other people will be.[/QUOTE] My point is that I have doubts on the basic meaning of transgenderism and that I believe it more to be self-image problems causing it. Am I wrong? Probably, infact, definitely. Regardless, don't get me wrong, I accept her for who she is and she'll always have my support.
[QUOTE=keroba;30911288]you can never change your XX or XY gonosomes though. whatever someone is, the genes will tell what the person should have been if it wasn't for birth defects or plastic surgery [/QUOTE] "should have been", so they are what they are. And besides, other genetic mutations could still occur even in the presence of an active SRY (sex-determined region of the Y chromosome (not entirely sure if there's a parallel version of it on the X chromosome though, but would make sense if there is)), but I suppose I do agree with you -- the unique signatures appended to specific sex chromosomes should determine the gender, albeit external influences may result in some mutation that results in a different sex from what should have come from them (which ultimately means that sex is not wholly determined by the mere presence of XX/XY but rather the core genes of sex/gender that are active in those chromosomes).
[QUOTE=keroba;30911288]you can never change your XX or XY gonosomes though. whatever someone is, the genes will tell what the person should have been if it wasn't for birth defects or plastic surgery[/QUOTE] Your chromosomes mean less in terms of who you are than your brain does.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;30925755]New studies are showing that gender is defined by a burst of hormones during brain development, and transgenderism is caused by a mismatching burst of hormones. It is not a psychological condition, it is a physical condition present from birth. "Condition" meaning it is neither positive nor negative, only different.[/QUOTE] That's not entirely true since the effects of hormones rely on the sensitivity of the targeted areas of the organism (e.g. so if areas of the brain determining gender didn't have the necessary estrogen receptors, estrogen would not change their gender and vice versa -- the same also applies to the rest of the body).
[QUOTE=doommarine23;30927838]My point is that I have doubts on the basic meaning of transgenderism and that I believe it more to be self-image problems causing it. Am I wrong? Probably, infact, definitely. Regardless, don't get me wrong, I accept her for who she is and she'll always have my support.[/QUOTE] If you know you're wrong why the doubt?
I always regret not paying attention in either physics, biology or chemistry whenever science threads pop up. They always make for good discussion.
[QUOTE=Novistador;30927208]Here's what I don't get, If Gender is the cultural and societal role that people of different sexes typically fall into, Why do transgender people feel the need to change their sex? If they simply want to live in the cultural/societal role of a woman, why do they need to take hormones, or surgically alter their penises.[/QUOTE] Similar urges manifest in individuals with severe body dysphoria (which makes me wonder of whether individuals with gender dysphoria (which really is body dysphoria) should be treated the same as individuals with severe body dysphoria). Some studies have revealed that areas of the cortex associated with mapping the body display peculiar patterns of activity which may alter their self-image.
[QUOTE=doommarine23;30927707] None of us who are secure in ourself and our own image, care about our gender, or if things are masculine or not.[/QUOTE] Probably because your gender isn't regularly called into question, not taken seriously, or just completely disregarded. A lot of trans people, especially early on in transition, tend to overcompensate as way to "prove" themselves to other people.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30928398]If you know you're wrong why the doubt?[/QUOTE] Because its good to think for yourself and not blindly accept everything you read about anything and form your own opinions, even if you know they're a bit flawed. The difference here, is that I'm more than willing and usually do, look for correct info along the way. [editline]5th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Herb;30928495]Probably because your gender isn't regularly called into question, not taken seriously, or just completely disregarded. A lot of trans people, especially early on in transition, tend to overcompensate as way to "prove" themselves to other people.[/QUOTE] Considered those things, but I'm not going to argue it. [editline]5th July 2011[/editline] Besides, whats with this forum and shit anyway. First it was "lets discuss love" now its transgenders [editline]5th July 2011[/editline] Facepunch = srs bsns
[QUOTE=myalt22;30928441]I always regret not paying attention in either physics, biology or chemistry whenever science threads pop up. They always make for good discussion.[/QUOTE] I don't think any of this has much to do with science.
Whelp, time to evac thread. Have fun with this
[QUOTE=doommarine23;30928498]Because its good to think for yourself and not blindly accept everything you read about anything and form your own opinions, even if you know they're a bit flawed.[/QUOTE] I think it stops being openmindedness when you begin rejecting reality. Would you say that christian conservatives are "openminded" about evolution or just ignorant?
[QUOTE=doommarine23;30927707]Am I the only one here who doubts some people's transexuality/transgenderism though? Sounds odd but lemme put it like this. I have a good friend, Male to Female, now. I'm not going to list her FP name or anything here out of respect, and I want to say right now, I accept her for who she is and I simply want her to be happy, but there's somethings I noticed. "Men act differently from Women in situations". No, we do not, Men only act "different" due to social up-bringing and implementation of gender-roles. Your gender does not define your personality in sort of way. She also mentioned " I was happy when I realized I could like masculine things like Gaming :3 ", while a cute thing and I was very happy for her, the thing is? People who are secure in who they are, don't really care. By this? Lemme put it like this, I have 2 sisters and 1 mother, all three of them play games to an extent, 1 of them is actually very into games and we talk about them. My mother is a very bold person. willing to fight and scream and yell, not acting like a "Woman". The thing is? None of us who are secure in ourself and our own image, care about our gender, or if things are masculine or not. This also begs the question: would it be better for them to be blind? What would happen if they were raised in a gender-less society? Gender probably does create a tendency for one to acquire certain attributes [i](aesthetics or behavioral)[/i], but given the abstract nature of mind, would the tendencies be as strong if these constants were deprived of their necessary inputs for initializing these desires? I guess My examples are a bit odd, seeing as I just woke up I'm really not in the best place to argue, but I guess what I'm trying to say is, Sometimes I doubt its very "Transgender", as more of "I feel like I NEED to be this gender due to my self-image issues". I know that sounds kinda the same, but its not. I mean shit, this brings up another argument too, what about that couple (was it "gay"? I forgot) where the "Man" was actually a Female > Male transgender. He had sex, like a woman, and gave birth, like a woman. You want to be a male, but you have sex like a female and birth like one. This kind of just means you're an really really ugly woman, by terms of biology, and in terms of society are simply leading a lie, and are being kind of hypocritical. Which I know sounds harsh, but whatever. Point I'm trying to make overall is, I guess? I don't know if I really believe in transgenderism myself, I think its more of self-image issues, along with self-acceptance and the imprints given by society. Some guy who hates himself and is girly, is probably going to have feelings that he should be a woman, simply because society tells him "you fucking act like one". Of course, I over-simply it, and I wish not to offend anyone. My giant ass 2 cents, anyone here who is Transgendered? I'd like to see your input, this isn't something I deal with, and thus, I admit ignorance. TLDR: BRING ON THE HATE [editline]5th July 2011[/editline] Also, my said quotes are from her. Just to clarify[/QUOTE] There's nothing wrong with asking questions, no matter how absurd they are - it's what fuels progress. Anyway, gender dysphoria is probably a self-image problem [i](so, the question here is whether anatomical change or psychological (i.e. to fix which parts of the mind are causing the dysphoric feelings) change is most appropriate - anatomical change can only go so far with contemporary technology, so perhaps the dysphoria can only be minimized at best by these methods) manifesting from an underlying gender constant (although some individuals do report having a male and a female self, and a preference for the female... which adds to the perplexity of gender and ultimately mind function)[/i]. So, by this reasoning, gender as a constant or dynamic which defaults to x or y could be like a root that automatically affects the way in which other processes develop in the mind, thereby giving rise to a tendency for individuals to behave in a certain way [i](it could even be more complex than this where the premise only affects certain parts with the necessary receptiveness)[/i]. [editline]6th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Zeke129;30927806]Well doommarine, did you ever think that maybe these self image issues come from the fact that she's transgender? It isn't exactly a very accepted thing. A transgender individual is going to be hurt by the preconceived gender roles more than other people will be. [editline]5th July 2011[/editline] These two sentences describe two different things, just so you know. The first is transgender, the second is crossdressing. They aren't the same.[/QUOTE] Some individuals with gender dysphoria can still have auto-erotic feelings from dressing as the opposite sex. [editline]6th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=carcarcargo;30928529]I don't think any of this has much to do with science.[/QUOTE] Nothing to do with science at all: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stria_terminalis[/url]
[QUOTE=livelonger12;30928592] Nothing to do with science at all: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stria_terminalis[/url][/QUOTE] Gender is a social concept.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30927806] These two sentences describe two different things, just so you know. The first is transgender, the second is crossdressing. They aren't the same.[/QUOTE] That was my point..... Crossdressers do it for the "kick" and transgenders do it because it's who they are.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;30928592] Some individuals with gender dysphoria can still have auto-erotic feelings from dressing as the opposite sex.[/QUOTE] Yeah I said they're different, not mutually exclusive.
honestly I don't understand what all the hubbub is about, a mans a man when he has XY chromosomes and a women is a women when she has XX chromosomes, fuck all this social crap XD ~Fortehwolf ---------------------- [img]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/maverick32/girls_sig.bmp[/img]
[QUOTE=keroba;30911288]you can never change your XX or XY gonosomes though. whatever someone is, the genes will tell what the person should have been if it wasn't for birth defects or plastic surgery [editline]5th July 2011[/editline] hivemind, though xxx=bad the klinefelter-syndrome won't give a woman big breasts, but usually drop the persons IQ at least 5 up to 10 points and affect speech it's never good to have 3 chromosomes of the same kind, especially not if it's #21 [img]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/emoot/downs.gif[/img][/QUOTE] Klinefelter's syndrome =/= Trisomy X Learn your chromosomal disorders. Trisomy X (XXX) usually has no symptoms due to X chromosome inactivation (Only one X chromosome is active at a time).
I hate this whole, gender confused thing. Honestly, if you wanna get your dick cut off and look like a girl, go do that, you're still a guy whether you like it or not. [editline]6th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=ForTehWolf...2!;30933207]fuck all this social crap [/QUOTE] agreed
What's so difficult? If you have a dick, your a Man. If you have a Vagina, your a Woman. This will not change even if you do decide to change from a Man to a Women or a Women to a Man.
my eyes are burning
I've always referred to people as what they preferred to be referred to. It's honestly not that hard.
A man is a man and a woman is a woman, the man has the ability to impregnate the woman to have a child. This comes with the woman usualy having larger hips and such to accomodate a baby and the ability to lactate and w/e else. Unless your transgender subject can do that, they are nothing but a fucked up mess of meat and flesh. So, if you get your dick chopped off, you are no longer a man, yet not a woman if you can't do what women do. So you are some other third thing. Or visa-versa, if you get your vagina cut out and replaced with a dick, you arn't able to use it to impregnate females, and are thus not a man nor a woman as you cannot bear a child and whatever else a woman does. Note: this does not include operations to keep you from being able to reproduce, (tubes tied, etc...) as you are still capable of bearing a child (most proceedures these days are actually reversable), and that is a completely different subject.
[QUOTE=ThatHippyMan;30950188]I've always referred to people as what they preferred to be referred to. It's honestly not that hard.[/QUOTE] Holy shit, sensibilities. You're a hero.
So if people (in this thread) see it sensible to refer to people how they want to be referred to as (male or female, whatever), why are people raging about issues such as that Swedish school with gender neutrality? If gender is a social concept, why is it so bad that they are attempting to limit social influence? As far as sex goes, they do teach the children about it.
Jesus fuck, it's 2011 not 1511, stop being bigot pricks "fuk dis social crap, if pen0r then man if vag then woomun, eez simple, y u no understand? xDxD" The world doesn't work that way you insolent fucks, not everyone is happy with who they were born as.
[QUOTE=doommarine23;30927707]-words-[/QUOTE] You don't have to hide my name out of respect, though I appreciate it. Unless you meant shana [editline]Hi[/editline] [QUOTE=Jetblack357;30933515]I hate this whole, gender confused thing. Honestly, if you wanna get your dick cut off and look like a girl, go do that, you're still a guy whether you like it or not.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Drebin001;30949137]What's so difficult? If you have a dick, your a Man. If you have a Vagina, your a Woman. This will not change even if you do decide to change from a Man to a Women or a Women to a Man.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Capn'Underpants;30955849]A man is a man and a woman is a woman, the man has the ability to impregnate the woman to have a child. This comes with the woman usualy having larger hips and such to accomodate a baby and the ability to lactate and w/e else. Unless your transgender subject can do that, they are nothing but a fucked up mess of meat and flesh. So, if you get your dick chopped off, you are no longer a man, yet not a woman if you can't do what women do. So you are some other third thing. Or visa-versa, if you get your vagina cut out and replaced with a dick, you arn't able to use it to impregnate females, and are thus not a man nor a woman as you cannot bear a child and whatever else a woman does. Note: this does not include operations to keep you from being able to reproduce, (tubes tied, etc...) as you are still capable of bearing a child (most proceedures these days are actually reversable), and that is a completely different subject.[/QUOTE] Hi all of you. My name is Lily and i'm an MtF Transgirl. Why does this concept seem to scare you all so much? Because of organs? i'll give you this, no matter what I or any tgirl does, we will always be biologically male. But that is the ONLY aspect in which we are male. And before you all go spouting the bullshit about sex and gender please get educated on the subject of which you continue to condemn. Here, i'll even give you some useful links to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"]Gender Identity Disorder[/URL], [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex"]Sex,[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender"]Gender[/URL] respectively. Not that any of you will take the time to read them. But what do I know? I'm just one of those weird dudes who plans on "destroying" and "mutilating" the body she didn't even get to pick, right?
[QUOTE=Skelmech;30959819]words[/QUOTE] I agree, Jetblack, Drebin and Capn'Underpants should DIAF.
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