When's a man not a man; when's a woman not a woman
171 replies, posted
You shouldn't change yourself down to the very basics of nature; sexual reproduction.
If you're born a man play with ponies and ignore sports and be a homosexual if you want to who gives a shit doesn't mean your not a FUCKING MAN.
Something about transsexuals irks me, but homosexuality doesn't irk me at all.
I also think Jetblack (minus all the rage) and papu have a point. I think science has (excuse the meme) gone too far.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;30996185]I still find it hard to understand how people can be born as a girl only inside their own mind and not as an actual girl.[/QUOTE]
There are lots of things I don't understand either, but I don't default to hostility when dealing with them.
wait, isnt sex and gender the same thing?
[QUOTE=garychencool;31019822]wait, isnt sex and gender the same thing?[/QUOTE]
Can you go research this yourself before entering a thread about it
(No they aren't)
[QUOTE=Ladowerf;31019075]You shouldn't change yourself down to the very basics of nature; sexual reproduction.
If you're born a man play with ponies and ignore sports and be a homosexual if you want to who gives a shit doesn't mean your not a FUCKING MAN.
Something about transgender irks me, but homosexuality doesn't irk me at all.
I also think Jetblack (minus all the rage) and papu have a point. I think science has (excuse the meme) gone too far.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=garychencool;31019822]wait, isnt sex and gender the same thing?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Skelmech, Page 2;30959819]
[B]And before you all go spouting the bullshit about sex and gender please get educated on the subject of which you continue to condemn. Here, i'll even give you some useful links to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"]Gender Identity Disorder[/URL], [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex"]Sex,[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender"]Gender[/URL] respectively. Not that any of you will take the time to read them.[/B][/QUOTE]
ffs
I meant transsexual @ skelmech. And when did I condemn any subject? I'm just arguing towards something in this thread. Trust me, in real life I don't go out insulting or attack transsexuals or anything like that, hell it's only my opinion, they have the right to do whatever the fuck they want, it's America. I just don't think it's right. I feel we're playing God.
[QUOTE=Ladowerf;31027424]I just don't think it's right.[/QUOTE]
What about it do you not think is right? Just a note, appeal to nature arguments are invalid.
He or She (I think?) are terms used to define the sex of a person. The factuality of the word 'man' implies a penis, those chromosomes (w/e), etc. The factuality of the world woman implies a vagina, chromes,etc.
The words Man and Woman, however, also contain remarks about the social placement of these sexes (it doesn't have to, but over the years this is how it has come to be). Feminist scholars call this masculinity and femininity. These aren't the only two categories, however. There are also other categories (blackness, redness, static vs changing).
So: you can be a feministic male who undergoes a sex change, but you are still a male (genetically). Just because you are a male genetically it doesn't mean anything: our sex is just our biological body, our gender is how we use it.
So, once you are born male you are always male, vice versa female.
[QUOTE=Neolk;31028251]He or She (I think?) are terms used to define the sex of a person. The factuality of the word 'man' implies a penis, those chromosomes (w/e), etc. The factuality of the world woman implies a vagina, chromes,etc.
The words Man and Woman, however, also contain remarks about the social placement of these sexes (it doesn't have to, but over the years this is how it has come to be). Feminist scholars call this masculinity and femininity. These aren't the only two categories, however. There are also other categories (blackness, redness, static vs changing).
So: you can be a feministic male who undergoes a sex change, but you are still a male (genetically). Just because you are a male genetically it doesn't mean anything: our sex is just our biological body, our gender is how we use it.
So, once you are born male you are always male, vice versa female.[/QUOTE]
[B][highlight]Here, i'll even give you some useful links to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"]Gender Identity Disorder[/URL], [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex"]Sex,[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender"]Gender[/URL] respectively. Not that any of you will take the time to read them.[/highlight]
For Fucks sake, SEX =/= GENDER
[/B]The only way I classify as a male is biologicially, that's it.
and if you didn't mean that offensively I'm sorry but for fucks sake if you read any of those links you'd see you're wrong.
[QUOTE=Skelmech;31029655][B][highlight]Here, i'll even give you some useful links to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"]Gender Identity Disorder[/URL], [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex"]Sex,[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender"]Gender[/URL] respectively. Not that any of you will take the time to read them.[/highlight]
For Fucks sake, SEX =/= GENDER
[/B]The only way I classify as a male is biologicially, that's it.
and if you didn't mean that offensively I'm sorry but for fucks sake if you read any of those links you'd see you're wrong.[/QUOTE]
You literally just repeated what I said.
EDIT: with links
True, most of the issues surrounding this subject are the result of society's development over the past thousands of years, however my personal opinion is that as long as they act within the boundaries of the law, ie: your rights stop where others' begin, you are free to do as you feel.
Despite this I'm afraid I could never find the prospect of dating/marrying/etc. a person who has been altered in this fashion comfortable. Unfortunately, medical science just hasn't come far enough to make it seamless, and despite their best efforts, people who undergo these procedures will stick out in a crowd.
I try to be open-minded about most things, and as I have stated in my first sentences, am not opposed to people doing what they feel is in their best interest. However that does not mean I am completely comfortable with the idea, but then I suppose since I have never felt as though I belonged to the opposite gender, who am I to know. Call me a bigot, a close-minded shut-in, or a relic of the old world, but sorry, that's my two-cents on this issue.
[QUOTE=Neolk;31028251]He or She (I think?) are terms used to define the sex of a person. The factuality of the word 'man' implies a penis, those chromosomes (w/e), etc. The factuality of the world woman implies a vagina, chromes,etc.[/QUOTE]
They can be used for either sex or gender depending on the context of the discussion
[QUOTE=papu2;30983879]"You like swiss cheese?"<br>
"Nah i pre-"<br>
"You want a piece?"<br>
"No i-"<br>
"SHUT THE FUCK UP AND FUCKING EAT IT!"<br>
<br>
Okay lets lose the bullshit.<br>
<br>
May I confort you in the thought that optimism doesn't change the world. We've tried that in the 60s. Now, i am not somekind of teenager balancing between evil and good, fucking jing jang and all that shit. I'm quite old considering the average age of facepunchers, stubborn and i don't give a crap expecially at this state of mind. I don't think you can comprehend the fact that there's much bigger things in the world than fucking converting people into retardness or being the king of retards. You're worried about something that barely matters in this world. You might aswell ask my opinion on the fucking abortion and then tell me "NO FUCK YOU THIS IS HOW IT IS". These are minor problems which have became huge problems because a small group of people wishes to fucking change everything. And this is super hilarious because there is no fucking problem, but lets pretend there is and what makes you think that you're able to achieve something that no one has ever done? Maybe its just that it rotates around your life since as you advertise apparently all your friends are transexuals, Maybe you're a closet transexual or you're the kind of person who leeches off from weaker people. Don't worry, You're not alone, But i prefer rubbing shoulders with people who are useful to me. but i'd be glad if you could take this discussion between you and me to the general level considering that you wish to continue it. If you don't then you can keep on rolling things the way you want but i think it's somewhat over atleast between us because i don't want this to become a flame war.<br>
<br>
Now i'm going to say this now as it doesn't appear to be painfully obvious. I do not wish to talk to this ex-skinhead transexual friend of yours. Okay?[/QUOTE]<br>The stupidity of your opinions are wholly unfathomable. Anyone should be allowed to do whatever, so long as a) it doesn't intervene with the dire needs of society and b) ultimately, it doesn't affect other forms of sentient life malignantly (i.e. by inducing pain upon other sentients). So, if one wishes to dress as an elf, whatever, 24/7 and still produce some productive form necessary for sustaining the essence of society (that is, the basic needs for survival), then why bother responding aggressively to them? They're doing something good for the whole and are of not even the slightest detriment to social stability. <br><br>So, economically the function of individual contribution to the overall sustainability is what's important to the perpetuation of society (and that may not even be necessary if scarcity is somehow eliminated), and of second (prime) importance is of whether that individual poses a treat to the physiological health of other members within that society -- in other words, these individual's are fine and there's nothing wrong with what they're doing. <br><br>There's something wrong when an individual poses a threat to the stability and physiological health of other members, but that's most likely a result of some social disparity - a problem of the very fabric of that society, which should incite a need to amend the inherent troubles of that society (so thusly, that society was already inherently unstable - a stable society won't produce such individuals).<br>
Ahh, you're probably a troll but the opinions kinda made me rage a little.
[editline]12th July 2011[/editline]
Also, to those who don't think they're men/women, let's suppose that hypothetically one had a sex change whereby some molecular reconstruction device disassembled all of the molecules of their anatomy and re-arranged them in such a way that they were equivalent to the arrangement of a standard female - would they not have a female sex anatomy then?
If you agree to this, then consider if medical treatments via hormones and surgery re-form that person's anatomy to match that of a female's, then would they not have a female sex anatomy then too?
The point is, what you see as male/female is a result of some cortical pattern recognition - a total of feminine/masculine traits tested against each other (and so hence why even some women with masculine traits are still considered women: they compensate for these by other feminine traits) to see if the values coincide with those declared for some template of a female (so anything that fits in that template is a female, anything outside that range isn't; and that template is also adaptive, and becomes less rigid as you explore the many myriad of variations of males and females).
Look i got a penis, i'm a man.
Look i got a vagina, i'm a woman.
Look i got fucking antlers on my head, i'm a moose.
Is it just me, or is stating that your opinion is right and that others are ignorant catholics from the dark ages because they don't believe in your belief also pretty ignorant?
Also, please stop getting so mad when people can't tell gender and sex apart. Gender has undergone a lot of evolution in the past century (as words often do), and it's not particularly fair to get upset for not using your meaning of your ever-changing word.
Just call them by their original gender, any DNA test would show their birth gender. Besides, people don't give a damn about what a person [I]wants[/I] to be, they want to know what the person [I]actually[/I] is.
ie: A straight male doesn't care if a transgender claims to be a female.
[QUOTE=Pown;31078710]Is it just me, or is stating that your opinion is right and that others are ignorant catholics from the dark ages because they don't believe in your belief also pretty ignorant?
Also, please stop getting so mad when people can't tell gender and sex apart. Gender has undergone a lot of evolution in the past century (as words often do), and it's not particularly fair to get upset for not using your meaning of your ever-changing word.[/QUOTE]
The problem comes from the fact that they are clinging so tightly to age-old beliefs. I could care less what anyone's opinion is, honestly, until it brings harm of any sort (physical, emotional, etc.) to someone else. By openly stating that someone else is in the wrong for believing something different than you is extremely bigoted. We're not trying to say our opinion is right, we're trying to teach that acceptance is right. Rather than saying "what you're doing is wrong and you should feel bad", you should instead say "what you're doing isn't right for me".
[QUOTE=The Baconator;31084190]Just call them by their original gender, any DNA test would show their birth gender. Besides, people don't give a damn about what a person [I]wants[/I] to be, they want to know what the person [I]actually[/I] is.
ie: A straight male doesn't care if a transgender claims to be a female.[/QUOTE]
I want to point out that you said [i]who[/i] someone is, not [i]what[/i] someone is. Those two words have very different meanings, at least to me.
[i]Who[/i] someone is is very unique, and you can't really categorize [i]who[/i] they are.
[i]What[/i] someone is is much less unique, and is more of a collection of groups they belong to based on very aspects of their personality.
Caring about [i]who[/i] someone is over [i]what[/i] someone is should end up leading to the point that someone can look over things such as transsexualism is continue liking the person for [i]who[/i] they are, not [i]what[/i] they are.
I think our societies rushed into gender reassignment therapies far too soon. I've seen numbers going 50% or more for suicide rates in some places among those who get the surgery done. That is way too fucking high and we really need to reevaluate if and when these should be done at all.
Our genetic structure defines much of who we are and our bodies should only be tampered with if a significant change in quality of life is likely to happen. For example: imagine someone is blind in one eye. Gene therapy or cybernetic implants exist to fix the problem, and have a fairly good success ratio (with few to no side effects either way). This is a perfect situation of significant improvement in quality of life.
On the flip side, inverting some dude's penis into a vagina and giving him hormones is terribly unpredictable and often irreversible. Also, huge stigmas exist when it comes to body modifications of such an extent, and this can wear down the patient in ways that are far worse than gender identity issues. The possible improvement of quality of life is up for debate and heavily dependent on the patient. This means that if these treatments are to continue, they need to work better.
Still, you can't say people don't have a right to consider what was once a man/woman still a man/woman. Many people have strong beliefs in the sanctity of the body (seeing the body as a temple, for example) and forcing them to see it your way is actually an example of YOUR intolerance, not theirs.
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;31084931]Still, you can't say people don't have a right to consider what was once a man/woman still a man/woman. Many people have strong beliefs in the sanctity of the body (seeing the body as a temple, for example) and forcing them to see it your way is actually an example of YOUR intolerance, not theirs.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that most of the people with strong beliefs in the sanctity of the body try to push their beliefs on you, whether or not you agree with or want it. I don't see anyone trying to push the belief that transsexualism is "right" and sanctity of body is "wrong", but that there needs to be tolerance from the latter party to the former party.
An example I have from my own experiences. In high school, I had two devoted friends, both Mormon if I remember correctly. One of them would "correct" me any time I swore around him. There is nothing inherently "wrong" in swearing, and it wasn't harming anyone. In this regard he was attempting to force his beliefs on me. The other, when I came out as gay, told me that "it's not for me, but I'm not going to hold you back". He was tolerant of me and how I am, and didn't push his beliefs on me. He never tried to say I was "wrong".
While the two stories are disjointed, they still show what I'm trying to show you. There's a difference between pushing one's beliefs, and trying to teach tolerance.
[QUOTE=The Baconator;31084190]ie: A straight male doesn't care if a transgender claims to be a female.[/QUOTE]
Actually I'm pretty sure they do if they're not a massive dick.
[QUOTE=The Baconator;31084190]Just call them by their original gender, any DNA test would show their birth gender. Besides, people don't give a damn about what a person [I]wants[/I] to be, they want to know what the person [I]actually[/I] is.
ie: A straight male doesn't care if a transgender claims to be a female.[/QUOTE]
Read the thread.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.