Tumblr Debates Freedom of Speech at Oxford, Says You Must Censor Privileged White CIS Men To Achieve
234 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Zyler;48542498]Because people have said that they either don't exist or people shouldn't be talking about them, but the reality is that they do exist and their beliefs are rather problematic and so should be talked about.[/QUOTE]
I do know of anyone who has ever said that these types of people don't exist and yes there views are problematic and they are talked about. These people are the outcast of all actual feminist groups so they all gathered together and spread their views. Any feminist event/space/art show/whatever I've been to is always full of nice women who don't think that I should have a lesser voice because I am a white male, but they believe that they should have an equal voice as me. There are also people on tumblr who draw pictures of Gordon Freeman being rammed with a crowbar. [sp]probably[/sp] Does that mean all Half Life fans think that, of course not, is it concerning, yea kind of, do these people exist, yea totally.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;48542331]That's because insane right wingers make up a large part of the US government and are directly impacting social policy as we speak (see the republican party). These tumblr feminists SJWs you crusade against have literally zero social power.[/QUOTE]
No, I saw it go down last year from people who have influence in the tech world on facebook, saw it in my feed and in twitter. The whole misogyny is the cause of all evil, the logical fallacy of relative privation upheld loudly as a virtue, the projection of their faults upon who they hated was and is all to real. And those people directed the information within those key people's social circle and sometimes directly at celebrity like figures in the tech world. And a common position they had was responsibility of PR and/or people who pub themselves as hubs of signal boosting information. Even saw threats of disconnect if someone disagreed with them the slightest.
So no, they are real and they have influence. Also the poison in identity politics has been acknowledged by bill clinton last year around October.
[QUOTE=ClauAmericano;48540940][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/lUK64NP.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Is that christopher hitchens' brother?
Found his name, Peter. It really does look like him.
edit again, maybe I should have watched the video hahaha!
O also one more point, most of the accounts you see on tumblr that are actually posting stuff like "WOW A MAN LOOKED AT ME WHEN I WAS CROSSING THE STREET AND NOW I'M AT THE POLICE STATION FILING A REPORT OUT FOR RAPE!!!! #CASTRATEALLMEN" are troll accounts. People know how to get reactions out of the internet for that sweet internet cred of making it on the front page of reddit, or a bunch of notes on tumblr, or even being posted in LMAO pics.
[QUOTE=the tee;48542517]"We want freedom of speech by censoring people"
???[/QUOTE]
She's twisting the meaning of freedom of speech by implying these peoples freedom of speech is subtly silencing others therefore they must be removed to allow the others freedom of speech... I think.
The whole strikes me as all people are free but some people are more free than others.
[QUOTE=splenda;48542552]"WOW A MAN LOOKED AT ME WHEN I WAS CROSSING THE STREET AND NOW I'M AT THE POLICE STATION FILING A REPORT OUT FOR RAPE!!!! #CASTRATEALLMEN" are troll accounts..[/QUOTE]
And your evidence for this is...?
The user Communismkills was doxxed and had death threats sent to her family while trying to argue with the tumblr feminist community.
They're pretty insane.
[QUOTE=Solo Wing;48540668]Why is it that everytime I hear the word "privileged" it makes me want to punch the person who said it?[/QUOTE]
Because you've only heard extremists use the term, not the people who are actually using it to contribute to valuable social discourse
you have to keep in mind those are always empty threats
it's just people trying to rustle their jimmies
I don't get why people panic about it. It's exactly what they want, people just go SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING instead of just going "like I give a fuck"
Also bear in mind that this comes from one of Oxford's debating societies - the point of the debate is to try to make a solid point on a specific topic. You're given a topic and told you must take a certain point of view - hence the often outrageous reasoning expressed in some of these debate videos
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48542727]And your evidence for this is...?
The user Communismkills was doxxed and had death threats sent to her family while trying to argue with the tumblr feminist community.
They're pretty insane.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for cutting out the very important part of that statement that says "most." Yes these people exist, I've said this multiple times now in this thread because for some reason people think that it is a good argument or something and yes they are a problem, again talked about this in this thread and multiple threads. I'm not defending these people but I am defending the movement and like 99% of the members of said movement.
[QUOTE=En-Guage V2;48542743]you have to keep in mind those are always empty threats
it's just people trying to rustle their jimmies
I don't get why people panic about it. It's exactly what they want, people just go SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING instead of just going "like I give a fuck"[/QUOTE]
Empty threats or not, they should always be taken seriously. There are good reasons why threatening to kill somebody is a pretty serious criminal offence. I've been threatened by people I knew (and who I knew were close to being the sort who would carry the threat out) and I was terrified. I can't imagine how it would feel when strangers throw out those threats, especially when family (etc) are involved as well.
[editline]26th August 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;48541305]Rape is really touchy on Tumblr, talking about rape in any light that's not negative will get you instaflamed. I don't find that joke particularly funny but I'd mostly let it slide.
[/QUOTE]
You can't legitimately talk about it in a light that is not negative though, that's kind of intrinsic.
[QUOTE=Maloof?;48542756]You can't legitimately talk about it in a light that is not negative though, that's kind of intrinsic.[/QUOTE]
Hahahaha rape is so funny guys lighten up [sp]except its ruined many people's lives and had caused me shame of my own body and triggered anxiety attacks when I'm getting romantic even with a trusted partner.[/sp]
Her dress is hella ugly and makes her look overdressed for this thing. Also that scarf thing doesn't work for the outfit what are you doing lady god damn.
Also why the hell mention GamerGate what the fuck does that have to do with shit?
I usually don't say this stuff but I do feel that a lot of people on tumblr follow these extremist views. I go on there a lot, mainly for other things, but because I follow so many random blogs I do end of up seeing the crazy stuff. And its not like its just one person posting something and then nobody seeing it. It is more like someone posts some extremist view like saying that pixar umbrella short was sexist, and then hundreds of thousands of people reblog/like it. If it is just one person with no attention saying something, whatever. Now of course not everything/everyone on there is crazy (which is what people have been saying), but I feel people are making the movement and power of these posts seem less influential then they really are.
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;48541095]a still image doesn't do enough justice
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/goOAf1n.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
"Why couldn't I've gone to Cambridge?"
Continuing to deny that a certain harmful element of your movement exists or even trying to actively defend said element is not a way to make a strong argument or win supporters. Its a way to create blind fanatics who don't even really understand what they support, just parrot the general ideas they've seen others parroting. And because they keep repeating the same few points back and forth without really understanding them or trying to develop them, they become violently attached to and obsessed with them.
Just going "No, they're not real! Don't talk about them!" does not cause good things to happen. To get anywhere meaningful, you have to actually address these elements and call them out, not try to avoid them for fear of showing some weakness or fault. You shouldn't just ignore the man behind the curtain.
I don't see many people denying that SJWs [I]exist[/I] in this thread, just some people who think they're insignificant. Not at all the same story as the closet cases in SH.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;48543038]Continuing to deny that a certain harmful element of your movement exists or even trying to actively defend said element is not a way to make a strong argument or win supporters. Its a way to create blind fanatics who don't even really understand what they support, just parrot the general ideas they've seen others parroting. And because they keep repeating the same few points back and forth without really understanding them or trying to develop them, they become violently attached to and obsessed with them.
Just going "No, they're not real! Don't talk about them!" does not cause good things to happen. To get anywhere meaningful, you have to actually address these elements and call them out, not try to avoid them for fear of showing some weakness or fault. You shouldn't just ignore the man behind the curtain.[/QUOTE]
They're real. But what "feminist detractors" need to realize is that they're talking about the single largest social movement in history that spans every country on the planet.
Most christians don't flat-out deny that the Westboro Baptist Church is real. They condemn it and they condemn their actions. They're one of the largest religions in the entire world. I'm a white male feminist and I think that promoting censorship to "defend freedom of speech" is ass-backwards, even though I wholly understand the perspective. It's the same exact reasoning behind stuff like affirmative action - positive discrimination - but it's taken to a very strong extreme.
The idea of censoring white men from partaking in discussions about women of color and etc etc is stupid, no questions, but the reasoning behind it is that by discriminating [i]against[/i] a certain group with more power than another group, you allow the smaller, more discriminated group to speak up and be heard on an equal playing field as the more powerful group. It's how affirmative action works - minorities are disenfranchised and discriminated against by society in certain areas, so by positively discriminating in their favor in other areas [i]that you can have an influence on[/i], you help that group out as a whole.
This ideology is actually losing ground to intersectionality, which is about how people can have more privilege than others in specific areas, and treating groups as a whole while ignoring their specific privileges/lack of privileges ends up being harmful in the long run. Example: women in the US are privileged in parental rights legal battles to a large degree, but they're underprivileged when it comes to stuff like career opportunities and the wage gap - women choose lower-paying jobs far more often, and certain fields (like video games and compsci and engineering and shit) are largely made up of men, pushing women out of those fields because they're not socially expected to be interested in "guy stuff."
It's a complex issue. The woman in the video is an idiot, but if you understand where her views stem from and the concept of positive discrimination, they're somewhat less insane. Just those simple views taken to an extreme.
I was more surprised she was able to keep her dribble consistent for that long at that speed.
[QUOTE=Zeos;48542396]I think he's having a great stroke[/QUOTE]
He's triggered.
I know that because I too was triggered by watching this speech.
[QUOTE=Aredbomb;48543077]I don't see many people denying that SJWs [I]exist[/I] in this thread, just some people who think they're insignificant. Not at all the same story as the closet cases in SH.[/QUOTE]
They are insignificant. The only reason people on the internet see them so often is because they spend time in places where they're posted a lot. I've never seen a video or a news article on Facepunch about a feminist writer talking about women's issues in a reasonable way - not once. But there's thousands and thousands of those videos.
It's 95% confirmation bias. People see extremist stuff posted, so they start making assumptions that that is what the majority believe or that they're a bigger part of the actual movement.
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg3umXU_qWc"]Here's a video[/URL] of a prominent Nigerian feminist author talking about the importance of feminism and how gender discrimination is a real issue - both for "masculinity" for men and "femininity" for women.
You can find incredibly reasonable videos of very popular feminists, but instead people like to dig and dig into tumblr and go post the craziest, most off-the-wall shit they can find onto /r/tumblrinaction, half of which is ironic trolling and half of which is confused teenagers latching onto an ideology without a real understanding of the social context. People laugh at how tumblr is an echo-chamber, without realizing that their entire view of feminism is created by an internet echo-chamber, which is so much more harmful.
Can we really call the radicals and their impact insignificant? As of late you could most certainly argue we're seeing impact of radical opinions of how to solve problems, reddit adopted new policies that are certainly radical seeming, removing the ability to negotiate pay and turning away anyone that answers the qeustion "should the most qualified person receive the job?" with yes. To call the employment choices of a site as large as reddit insignificant is a bit naive.
One might say a point of contention is that by claiming they're insignificant others are seeing it as people trying to sweep radicals under the rug.
[QUOTE=mooman1080;48543193]Can we really call the radicals and their impact insignificant? As of late you could most certainly argue we're seeing impact of radical opinions of how to solve problems, reddit adopted new policies that are certainly radical seeming, removing the ability to negotiate pay and turning away anyone that answers the qeustion "should the most qualified person receive the job?" with yes. To call the employment choices of a site as large as reddit insignificant is a bit naive.
One might say a point of contention is that by claiming they're insignificant others are seeing it as people trying to sweep radicals under the rug.[/QUOTE]
I really don't think that a private company saying "we're going to put warnings up before you access /r/picsofdeadkids" could be considered extreme under any definition of the word.
Reddit is also a tiny, tiny company, and trying to use them as an example of a "major company" being somehow infiltrated by extremist feminism is dishonest. The pay negotiation is another example of "positive discrimination" that I totally disagree with. I can't find any source on the "most qualified person shouldn't receive the job."
But yeah, we can call the radicals insignificant. The most damage they've done is made people on the internet think feminism is solely blue-haired angry ugly women who want to assassinate the entire male sex (unless they're gay or trans).
I went to a tech school so it was a fairly progressive environment, and there were [I]lots[/I] of people like the woman in the OP. Maybe not quite as crazy or extreme, but the same kind of mentality.
I don't think you can say they're totally insignificant, at least in the USA, when you've got comedians like Seinfeld saying they can't perform at colleges anymore without fear of offending someone. When you've got articles written by teachers saying that a law teacher can teach students about rape law without getting complaints.
There's a pretty significant societal shift going on right now, and it's going off in all kinds of different ways. The Right and Left extremes are pulling further and further apart, and bringing all kinds of crazy ideas with them.
People here are still making assumptions about what the people posting in this thread actually mean. Everybody here knows that the extremist social justice supporters are a small minority, so are extremist conservatives. That doesn't mean that either group is inconsequential or shouldn't be talked about. The people that come into this thread and say that the people here believe that extremists make up the majority of tumblr/social-justice/feminism are the ones making assumptions about people, not the people criticizing extremists.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;48541186]Nobody denies their existence we just say they're a small vocal minority who've grouped anyone using tumblr into a filthy left wing socialist SJW who hates anything that's white when really that'd have to be 3% of the userbase[/QUOTE]
Essentially this, "they're a small minority so nobody should talk about them". Also making the assumption that people who post here are unable to distinguish them from the larger majority ("3% of the userbase"). The reality is that, as other people have pointed out, people who post here talk about radical tumblr people in the same way they talk about radical conservatives. Both radical groups represent a very small part of the overall majority, but their views are particularly worrying and problematic and it's worth pointing out why that is so that hopefully less people become radicalized.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;48543157]They are insignificant. The only reason people on the internet see them so often is because they spend time in places where they're posted a lot. I've never seen a video or a news article on Facepunch about a feminist writer talking about women's issues in a reasonable way - not once. But there's thousands and thousands of those videos.
It's 95% confirmation bias. People see extremist stuff posted, so they start making assumptions that that is what the majority believe or that they're a bigger part of the actual movement.
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg3umXU_qWc"]Here's a video[/URL] of a prominent Nigerian feminist author talking about the importance of feminism and how gender discrimination is a real issue - both for "masculinity" for men and "femininity" for women.
You can find incredibly reasonable videos of very popular feminists, but instead people like to dig and dig into tumblr and go post the craziest, most off-the-wall shit they can find onto /r/tumblrinaction, half of which is ironic trolling and half of which is confused teenagers latching onto an ideology without a real understanding of the social context. People laugh at how tumblr is an echo-chamber, without realizing that their entire view of feminism is created by an internet echo-chamber, which is so much more harmful.[/QUOTE]
Again, your making assumptions about the intent of people in this thread and that they don't already know this. Also, talking about extremism is harmful now? Perhaps you should consider whether your own biases are causing you to be unfairly judgmental towards people who are critical of stuff on the internet.
If you didn't make baseless assumptions about people's intentions you'd probably find you agree a lot more with the stuff posted here than you realize.
It is good to point out extremism and why it is wrong. Yes, it would be nice if people around the internet were more easily able to distinguish the actions of individuals from a larger group, but I feel as though, by the same token, posters in this thread are being unfairly judged by assumptions based on the rest of the internet and not the words of the actual posts.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;48543237]I really don't think that a private company saying "we're going to put warnings up before you access /r/picsofdeadkids" could be considered extreme under any definition of the word.
Reddit is also a tiny, tiny company, and trying to use them as an example of a "major company" being somehow infiltrated by extremist feminism is dishonest. The pay negotiation is another example of "positive discrimination" that I totally disagree with. I can't find any source on the "most qualified person shouldn't receive the job."
But yeah, we can call the radicals insignificant. The most damage they've done is made people on the internet think feminism is solely blue-haired angry ugly women who want to assassinate the entire male sex (unless they're gay or trans).[/QUOTE]
What's dishonest is calling reddit small, regardless of the size of the physical team reddit is a big deal and brings large amounts of internet traffic, other companies take notice of successful companies and to call reddit successful is a understatement, that's like calling google kinda popular.
But fine, what about the case of a college campus diversity teacher coming out and saying discrimination or racism against white people is physically impossible? Surely there's nothing significant about the education system.
Then we have cases in the game industry like the notorious bayonetta review by polygon, they openly admitted that the game was good but chose to give it a lower score because they found it sexist. To call that insignificant is absolutely ridiculous because this thing called meta critic. Such arguably unrelated topic weighting the score has an impact as like it or not publishers most certainly make choices based on meta critic averages.
Then the multiple cases that the insignificant people caused real changes in others' works of art, the Joker cover, the armor of the female pro tag of divinity original sin, and certainly several other unspoken artistic choices.
I'm not saying it's a grand conspiracy, I'm saying people are starting to feel real impact from radicals. To come in and tell them they're insignificant does nothing but spurn them when they see this things happening in the circles they care about. Go tell some hard core comic readers that the censoring of the joker cover was insignificant.
[QUOTE=Zyler;48543279]People here are still making assumptions about what the people posting in this thread actually mean. Everybody here knows that the extremist social justice supporters are a small minority, so are extremist conservatives. That doesn't mean that either group is inconsequential or shouldn't be talked about. The people that come into this thread and say that the people here believe that extremists make up the majority of tumblr/social-justice/feminism are the ones making assumptions about people, not the people criticizing extremists.
Essentially this, "they're a small minority so nobody should talk about them". Also making the assumption that people who post here are unable to distinguish them from the larger majority ("3% of the userbase"). The reality is that, as other people have pointed out, people who post here talk about radical tumblr people in the same way they talk about radical conservatives. Both radical groups represent a very small part of the overall majority, but their views are particularly worrying and problematic and it's worth pointing out why that is so that hopefully less people become radicalized.
Again, your making assumptions about the intent of people in this thread and that they don't already know this. Also, talking about extremism is harmful now? Perhaps you should consider whether your own biases are causing you to be unfairly judgmental towards people who are critical of stuff on the internet.
If you didn't make baseless assumptions about people's intentions you'd probably find you agree a lot more with the stuff posted here than you realize.
It is good to point out extremism and why it is wrong. Yes, it would be nice if people around the internet were more easily able to distinguish the actions of individuals from a larger group, but I feel as though, by the same token, posters in this thread are being unfairly judged by assumptions based on the rest of the internet and not the words of the actual posts.[/QUOTE]
and you're making an assumption that I'm making baseless assumptions about people's intentions. I didn't accuse anybody of anything.
It's fine to talk about them. I just think it's both unhealthy and dishonest to focus so intently on such a small minority of such a massive movement, especially when it is often misconstrued as the backbone of the larger movement - which I have personally seen several times across the internet. I disagree with their methodology - but I [i]understand the reasoning behind it[/i], which a lot of people don't [i]seem[/i] to be putting in the effort to do.
I never said "talking about extremism is harmful now." You're making baseless assumptions about what I meant. I'm saying that the [i]specific type of people[/i] that latch onto these types of videos and use them to back up their heavily anti-feminist views are [i]harmful to the image of feminism as a whole[/i]. It pushes people away and makes them start counter-movements like the Mens' Rights Movement when 98% of feminists are standing there actively saying that our modern concept of masculinity is as oppressive to men as the concept of a domestic housewife is to women. It's a dishonest type of talk that misrepresents extremism as the core movement. That's not okay - talking about the extremism itself is perfectly fine, and encouraged - making assumptions about feminism as a whole based on the actions and words of extremists is not okay.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;48543157]They are insignificant. The only reason people on the internet see them so often is because they spend time in places where they're posted a lot. I've never seen a video or a news article on Facepunch about a feminist writer talking about women's issues in a reasonable way - not once. But there's thousands and thousands of those videos.
It's 95% confirmation bias. People see extremist stuff posted, so they start making assumptions that that is what the majority believe or that they're a bigger part of the actual movement.
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg3umXU_qWc"]Here's a video[/URL] of a prominent Nigerian feminist author talking about the importance of feminism and how gender discrimination is a real issue - both for "masculinity" for men and "femininity" for women.
You can find incredibly reasonable videos of very popular feminists, but instead people like to dig and dig into tumblr and go post the craziest, most off-the-wall shit they can find onto /r/tumblrinaction, half of which is ironic trolling and half of which is confused teenagers latching onto an ideology without a real understanding of the social context. People laugh at how tumblr is an echo-chamber, without realizing that their entire view of feminism is created by an internet echo-chamber, which is so much more harmful.[/QUOTE]
I found out last year there is, when crazy easily convinced the gullible and the bully in tech related social circles that gamergate was a movement to harass women. (I wish I saved the posts on saw on facebook to so something of evidence that can be blocked out, but shit gets hidden)
I also had someone I knew last year get furious like she wanted to kill me when I was mentioning about the non disclosures in video game journalists a few days before the hashtag came out and this wasn't in a tech social circle. (fyi this person even though was pissed off because of what she was told, she wanted to talk to me to get other people's position because she was taught to do so.) Edit: Also was a feminist and read up on many feminists lit, just also fem freq.
I can see people believing in SJW being a distant outcast because they don't see it even rarely. But, the mentality and common problems presented came to me and even though I'm not in some elite upper A celebrity circle, I'm still connected to tech gurus in some degree.
Why do I talk about it, because I can't stomach being silent for long on attacking innocent people or such hypocrite statements.
[QUOTE=Kommodore;48541077]he's implied that anyone who denies the university is a plague pit of feminazi feelings is a clandestine agent of the SJW menace[/QUOTE]
what
how the fuck do you get that from what he said
[QUOTE=mooman1080;48543193]Can we really call the radicals and their impact insignificant? As of late you could most certainly argue we're seeing impact of radical opinions of how to solve problems, reddit adopted new policies that are certainly radical seeming, removing the ability to negotiate pay and turning away anyone that answers the qeustion "should the most qualified person receive the job?" with yes. To call the employment choices of a site as large as reddit insignificant is a bit naive.
One might say a point of contention is that by claiming they're insignificant others are seeing it as people trying to sweep radicals under the rug.[/QUOTE]
I think they're significant in that they're giving the rest of this wonderful movement a bad name, making the movement seem less legitimate and generally fucking it up.
Part of that blame lies with the people who see the extremists and don't look any further though, as well as those who just apply the 'extremist' label to any feminist who holds ideas that they don't personally agree with. It's super subjective and difficult to manage.
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