• Tumblr Debates Freedom of Speech at Oxford, Says You Must Censor Privileged White CIS Men To Achieve
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[QUOTE=Diet Kane;48546999]If this could be any more condescending, my monitor would start producing condensation.[/QUOTE] Except I wasn't actually trying to be condescending and its very hard to register tone of voice and body language over the internet. I have apologized in this thread earlier so what makes you think that now that I'm talking about a sensitive issue to people that I'm not being genuine with my apology this time? I get that people care about gamergate, I get that there is much more to the movement than what I know of being an outsider to both the movement and to gaming in general over the past few years. [editline]26th August 2015[/editline] The only reason I used the word precious too was because my friend has been using that word for the past few days so its kind of stuck in my vocabulary. Actually meant it in a non condescending way. :v:
God damn people like this are making the world a shittier place. Starting by small news outlets, universities and Tumblr, then moving onto the rest of the unsuspecting population. I sincerely hope I'm dead or worse before this happens, because it's gonna be hell on earth.
[QUOTE=splenda;48546991]Except I was trying to explain the viewpoint of most feminists. You may care about gamergate or whatever and that's fine, more power to you. What I'm saying is that in the broad inequalities in the world, ethics in the journalistic coverage of a hobby is next to meaningless to this activist group. If it is ever brought up in discussion, people either go "wtf is that" or they laugh about it. I'm not trying to belittle your precious movement and I apologize for my wording in the last sentence of the first paragraph in my post.[/QUOTE] People that care about videogames do and people that don't do not. Not sure what your point is.
[QUOTE=MrHeadHopper;48547058]God damn people like this are making the world a shittier place. Starting by small news outlets, universities and Tumblr, then moving onto the rest of the unsuspecting population. I sincerely hope I'm dead or worse before this happens, because it's gonna be hell on earth.[/QUOTE] Don't worry I can guarantee you that people like this will not become the norm. You don't have to worry about your cis male voice being censored because someone on the internet says it should be. That is totally absurd and will never actually be a thing. [editline]26th August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Rangergxi;48547076]People that care about videogames do and people that don't do not. Not sure what your point is.[/QUOTE] My point is that the people who are anti-gamergate (or whatever they are called) are mostly in it for the fame of being known as an "anti-gamergater" and not in it for the grand cause of feminism, or if they are in it for feminism, they are gravitating towards the non-issues of feminism to have their 15 minutes of fame because they can't have it fighting for the objectification of women in everyday life or the wage gap between men and women.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48547076]People that care about videogames do and people that don't do not. Not sure what your point is.[/QUOTE] I think the point he's making is that when it comes to social inequalities, as a society we must pick our battles wisely. Gamergate's relevance to actual social inequalities at best is tangential and focusing or using Gamergate as a cornerstone of any argument surrounding social inequality is missing the big picture by a long shot.
I think the reason extremist feminists and social authoritarian leftists get talked about more is because this is the internet, which thrives on complaining and dramatizing bad things. Which leads to extremists being talked about more often. So the three extremist groups around these issues are: conservative extremists (which get plenty of shit), MRAs (which have pretty much been staying in their corners doing absolutely nothing), and social authoritarian leftists or "SJW"s as they are often called. Recently the latter party has been stirring up a lot more shit on the internet than the other two parties, so they get talked about more. You don't need to think that Facepunch is lumping all feminists in with these groups just because Facepunch hardly ever talks about moderate feminists; the reason Facepunch doesn't talk about moderate feminists is because they're not horrible, so they don't cause as much conversation.
[QUOTE=splenda;48547088] My point is that the people who are anti-gamergate (or whatever they are called) are mostly in it for the fame of being known as an "anti-gamergater" and not in it for the grand cause of feminism, or if they are in it for feminism, they are gravitating towards the non-issues of feminism to have their 15 minutes of fame because they can't have it fighting for the objectification of women in everyday life or the wage gap between men and women.[/QUOTE] The first person to bring up gamergate was the woman in this video. She's the one that brought it up. Also, fact is, there is fame behind being an anti-gamergater. People who are anti-gamergate have been getting 3000-5000 a month from anti-gamergaters. That is alot of money and I think thats a good indicator of the support that these people have. Anyway, I crtl-f'ed the last 5 pages and for the first 4 pages people were mocking the woman for using gamergate as a bogieman like so many social justice minded people do but on this page it suddenly became an issue of discussion. Somebody disclosed that they were a gamergater who was used to interacting with crazy feminists and suddenly they were being mocked and having everything they said dismissed. The whole discussion was being derailed by people just insulting gamergate without even knowing what it was. [QUOTE=splenda;48547088]the objectification of women in everyday life or the wage gap between men and women.[/QUOTE] Strange how you only mention the objectification of women. Also the wage gap doesn't exist. [editline]26th August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Protocol7;48547125]I think the point he's making is that when it comes to social inequalities, as a society we must pick our battles wisely. Gamergate's relevance to actual social inequalities at best is tangential and focusing or using Gamergate as a cornerstone of any argument surrounding social inequality is missing the big picture by a long shot.[/QUOTE] Nobody did though. Some guy disclosed he was a gamergater (dunno why) and people went crazy, dismissing everything said by "lol gamergate". I've been critical of people like the woman in the video before gamergate even existed. They exist without gamergate, gaming is just another thing they're trying to censor. Gamergate is just the people that oppose their actions in the gaming industry.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48547211]Strange how you only mention the objectification of women. Also the wage gap doesn't exist.[/QUOTE] Except there is a very real wage gap and I'll provide sources for you if you want [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_States#Explaining_the_gender_pay_gap]but for the time being here is a nice wikipedia part explaining it.[/URL] And for the objectification of women part, the only reason I brought up only women is because I was talking about women's problems so I felt it was only necessary to bring up one of the sexes. For your information though, feminists do fight for both sex's objectification not just females. Kinda the same how they fight for both male and female cases of rape, not just women cases. If they didn't fight for that do you really think someone who had to suffer rape as a male would want to associate with a group that didn't care about me? Of course not!
[QUOTE=splenda;48547271]Except there is a very real wage gap and I'll provide sources for you if you want [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_States#Explaining_the_gender_pay_gap]but for the time being here is a nice wikipedia part explaining it.[/URL] [/QUOTE] Well sure if you take the raw data they get payed less on average but that isn't an accurate painting of the situation. Maddox made a pretty excellent video the subject that saves me quite a bit of time: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDj_bN0L8XM[/url] Also, on social issues wikipedia has a problem with feminists and ultra-progressives censoring things. There isn't even a criticisms article on the page and there are plenty of criticisms that have been made.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48547305]Well sure if you take the raw data they get payed less on average but that isn't an accurate painting of the situation. Maddox made a pretty excellent video the subject that saves me quite a bit of time: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDj_bN0L8XM[/url] Also, on social issues wikipedia has a problem with feminists and ultra-progressives censoring things. There isn't even a criticisms article on the page and there are plenty of criticisms that have been made.[/QUOTE] Alright if you don't like wikipedia (I don't blame you I wouldn't accept a wikipedia article either for a reference but it was just easy at the time.) then have some of these. [URL=http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm]Literal chart by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, you know the US government, on this exact topic. It is even categorized by type of job so there is none of that "WOMEN TAKE JOBS THAT PAY LESS" argument, literal comparing people of the same job.[/url] [URL=http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/13/news/economy/equal-pay-day-2015/]CNN talks about it to if you trust them.[/url] [URL=http://www.iwpr.org/initiatives/pay-equity-and-discrimination]Here is one by the Institute for Women's Policy Research but you might think they are biased so you don't need to accept this one if you don't want to.[/url] [URL=https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/84]This bill was created, and supported by President Obama, because of the wage gap in occupations.[/URL] If you want more sources please ask and I'll give some! [editline]26th August 2015[/editline] O also seeing how more women graduate from college/universities than men and they get more graduate degrees (both in numbers and in percentages) then the argument that they just don't try to get higher paying jobs doesn't make sense. [editline]26th August 2015[/editline] Also [URL=http://www.newsweek.com/hard-facts-about-pay-gap-between-men-and-women-322623] This newsweek article explains my first source in an easier-to-read fashion, but its a media outlet so you can try to make an argument that it is biased I guess.[/url] [editline]26th August 2015[/editline] And FYI I tried to not put any article that referenced only the full wage gap when not comparing specific occupations because I don't believe that those are acceptable sources either.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;48547175]Facepunch doesn't talk about moderate feminists is because they're not horrible, so they don't cause as much conversation.[/QUOTE] Its like Christianity. Most are good people and even quite liberal but the sizable element that hates gays and wants to deny women basic rights still exists and still uses the same term to identify themselves. [QUOTE=splenda;48547384] Literal chart by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, you know the US government, on this exact topic. It is even categorized by type of job so there is none of that "WOMEN TAKE JOBS THAT PAY LESS" argument, literal comparing people of the same job. O also seeing how more women graduate from college/universities than men and they get more graduate degrees (both in numbers and in percentages) then the argument that they just don't try to get higher paying jobs doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE][url]http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf[/url] There are observable differences in the attributes of men and women that account for most of the wage gap. Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent. These variables include: A greater percentage of women than men tend to work part-time. Part-time work tends to pay less than full-time work. A greater percentage of women than men tend to leave the labor force for child birth, child care and elder care. Some of the wage gap is explained by the percentage of women who were not in the labor force during previous years, the age of women, and the number of children in the home. Women, especially working mothers, tend to value “family friendly” workplace policies more than men. Some of the wage gap is explained by industry and occupation, particularly, the percentage of women who work in the industry and occupation. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Research indicates that women may value non-wage benefits more than men do, and as a result prefer to take a greater portion of their compensation in the form of health insurance and other fringe benefits. [/QUOTE] Uh huh.. That CNN article had a good commenter.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;48546076]the civil rights movement doesn't need to apologize for blacklivesmatter troublemakers[/QUOTE] Then they need to distance themselves so hard they'd be at Pluto Otherwise they ARE ending up in the same group as those hypocrites. Which ironically seems to actually happen within what's basically grouped up as GamerGate, but maybe that's because they seem to understand how important that is.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48547450]Its like Christianity. Most are good people and even quite liberal but the sizable element that hates gays and wants to deny women basic rights still exists and still uses the same term to identify themselves. Uh huh.. That CNN article had a good commenter.[/QUOTE] From reading the source in your video, not actually watching the video because I have nothing to listen to it with atm but read his source, his claims are being made off of guesses and then talks about a single politifact article. I'm sorry but the link in the video is basically an opinion piece. Please provide real sources or read the other sources I listed, the one I skimmed through was the CNN one anyways. And please read the parts in the article where they are comparing weekly salaries of people with the exact same job and the same education levels. Saying that women take part time jobs, leave work because they have children, or value "family friendly" work spaces is totally missing the point of the sources I provided.
You know, I consider myself a feminist. I consider myself fairly tolerant. But it's people like these that almost make me want to find a different label. Since I'm starting to get afraid that the label itself is becoming irrevocably tainted by the likes of them. The rhetoric she used is virtually the same as that of marxism - we want a classless society. So let's turn the rich and inteligentsia into an enemy class for a while until they are educated.
[QUOTE=ashton93;48540979][img]http://i.imgur.com/Sw7d0Vt.png[/img] :v:[/QUOTE] Good fucking lord [t]http://i.imgur.com/uL71HYf.png[/t]
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtWrljX9HRA[/media] just pop this down right here.
It's fucking nuts that in five years all of this bullshit has just sprung up and to me, there were no signs. We went from the internet being as shitty as normal, to being on fire and having another "INTERNET AND GAMERS ARE BAD PEOPLE" craze in the media with radical feminists (or SJWs) springing up in the real world.
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;48548171]It's fucking nuts that in five years all of this bullshit has just sprung up and to me, there were no signs. We went from the internet being as shitty as normal, to being on fire and having another "INTERNET AND GAMERS ARE BAD PEOPLE" craze in the media with radical feminists (or SJWs) springing up in the real world.[/QUOTE] You have a generation of people exposed to massive amounts of information trying to find easy answers to complicated and often frightening problems in the world. This generation is getting to the point where it feels like we should be doing something, but nobody has much of a clue. This pseudo-activist crap gives people a feeling like they're a part of positive change, because they feel largely powerless and small otherwise. There are dozens of academics and opportunists taking advantage of this to further their largely leftist political aims. That's at least my take. I think it will eventually fade as a trend, but it will take time.
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48548215]You have a generation of people exposed to massive amounts of information trying to find easy answers to complicated and often frightening problems in the world. This generation is getting to the point where it feels like we should be doing something, but nobody has much of a clue. This pseudo-activist crap gives people a feeling like they're a part of positive change, because they feel largely powerless and small otherwise. There are dozens of academics and opportunists taking advantage of this to further their largely leftist political aims. That's at least my take. I think it will eventually fade as a trend, but it will take time.[/QUOTE] In my opinion it's more that the internet has started segregating itself into very very niche groups that grow and grow into echo chambers - on both sides. You have people interested in social injustice following related people and groups on twitter and tumblr, and eventually the lowest common denominator of information is skyrocketed to the top. People believe what they want to hear. You get isolated racist holdouts like Stormfront, where people continually reaffirm their beliefs with like-minded people until they actually start believing in the "hitler did nothing wrong" meme. The internet's large enough and mainstream enough that people self-segregate into very very tight social circles. Google only shows you the results you want to see - if you google for feminist theory a lot you'll find feminist theory, and if you google for mens' rights and MGTOW and such you'll find a lot of information that is anti-feminist in nature, because Google thinks that's what you want to see. It goes every way. That's why you have people who vehemently believe Gamergate is an anti-woman campaign, and why you have people who vehemently defend that Gamergate is a campaign for greater journalistic integrity. They get isolated in their social circles and aren't able to understand the opposing perspective because both groups are aggressive towards the other side. It's always had some level of self-segregation, even during AOL chatrooms, but it's just ballooned with sites like Reddit and Tumblr creating insular networks of interests and sites like Facebook and Google only showing people what they already believe.
[QUOTE=Diet Kane;48546832]do we really, [I]really[/I] have to start this shit again fucking shitposters smh[/QUOTE] You know, you're doing the same thing the woman in the video was doing. Even though the topic he's discussing isn't [i]exactly[/i] the one from the video, his post still has a connection somewhat; and is how he feels. You can't just write him off as a "shitposter" because of how he expresses his opinion. I've seen this a lot on facepunch, someone with an opinion says something and before you know it one of the older members just come in and try to entirely defame them by saying shit like you just said.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;48543038]Continuing to deny that a certain harmful element of your movement exists or even trying to actively defend said element is not a way to make a strong argument or win supporters. Its a way to create blind fanatics who don't even really understand what they support, just parrot the general ideas they've seen others parroting. And because they keep repeating the same few points back and forth without really understanding them or trying to develop them, they become violently attached to and obsessed with them. Just going "No, they're not real! Don't talk about them!" does not cause good things to happen. To get anywhere meaningful, you have to actually address these elements and call them out, not try to avoid them for fear of showing some weakness or fault. You shouldn't just ignore the man behind the curtain.[/QUOTE] People say this because 99% of the world knows these people are stupid, even some people who may agree with a few of their points (not all) think they're stupid, they have no influence over politics or the world besides maybe a university student council. The problem is places like reddit love to circlejerk over these stupid people then start to think ANYTHING related to these guys are bad and start some Anti-SJW crusade, why do you think people like The Amazing Atheist sperg out about all feminists like they're the devil coming for his video games. The point is people try and address this problem by saying "No one takes these people seriously, I don't agree with everything they say" and when they say they don't exist they mostly mean they're such a minority and have no influence over the world as a whole they might as well not exist
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48548215]You have a generation of people exposed to massive amounts of information trying to find easy answers to complicated and often frightening problems in the world. This generation is getting to the point where it feels like we should be doing something, but nobody has much of a clue. This pseudo-activist crap gives people a feeling like they're a part of positive change, because they feel largely powerless and small otherwise. There are dozens of academics and opportunists taking advantage of this to further their largely leftist political aims. That's at least my take. I think it will eventually fade as a trend, but it will take time.[/QUOTE] I think Kojima put this problem quite elonquently- way back in 2001... [url]https://youtu.be/0iC9xpDSXyI?t=2m41s[/url]
Also this vocal minority people talk about is only because places like reddit love to show people crazy feminists so that's what you're mostly exposed to, academics and politicians (people with actual influence) don't care about them, they listen to what the smart people have to say. The vocal minority is only vocal because the internet pays attention to them so much.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48546595]Feminism is like the Republican party. Sure they were the party of abolitionism, anti-racism, pacifism and non-interventionism at points in their history but yeah...[/QUOTE] you're straight up saying feminism does not stand for what it once stood for give me a source that says the majority of modern feminists don't support the core ideas of the movement [editline]26th August 2015[/editline] by the way, this goes to the people saying "oh but we know they're a minority" clearly some people don't
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;48548895]you're straight up saying feminism does not stand for what it once stood for give me a source that says the majority of modern feminists don't support the core ideas of the movement [editline]26th August 2015[/editline] by the way, this goes to the people saying "oh but we know they're a minority" [B]clearly some people don't[/B][/QUOTE] Now we're back at square one, though. "Look at these crazy X's" "not everyone part of X is like this" "obviously, but clearly it's harmful to X" "No it's not, but its the vocal minority" "The vocal minority is being magnified by people and labeled as the whole X" "Not everyone thinks that way though" "clearly some do" We could go on to say that you are over-emphasizing the vocal minority's belief of the vocal minority, and so on and on and on.
[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;48549242]Now we're back at square one, though. "Look at these crazy X's" "not everyone part of X is like this" "obviously, but clearly it's harmful to X" "No it's not, but its the vocal minority" "The vocal minority is being magnified by people and labeled as the whole X" "Not everyone thinks that way though" "clearly some do" We could go on to say that you are over-emphasizing the vocal minority's belief of the vocal minority, and so on and on and on.[/QUOTE] tbh that whole ordeal didn't happen quite like that one side's claiming that the other side denies these people exist (so far i haven't seen anyone doing that) the other side is saying they're demonizing the entire movement for the actions of a few (there's an example of that right there)
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;48548526]Also this vocal minority people talk about is only because places like reddit love to show people crazy feminists so that's what you're mostly exposed to, academics and politicians (people with actual influence) don't care about them, they listen to what the smart people have to say. The vocal minority is only vocal because the internet pays attention to them so much.[/QUOTE] not with feminism in particular, but I've still seen that vocal minorities can manage to really fuck over the group they supposedly associated with and slow down their actually good cause but for the sake of not adding more shit to the fire I won't say which groups
[QUOTE=Blazedol;48549717]not with feminism in particular, but I've still seen that vocal minorities can manage to really fuck over the group they supposedly associated with and slow down their actually good cause but for the sake of not adding more shit to the fire I won't say which groups[/QUOTE] The nice thing with feminism, I guess it can be subjective so in my perspective, is that these people really are not slowing down everyone else, just giving others a bad name.
[QUOTE=splenda;48547271]Except there is a very real wage gap and I'll provide sources for you if you want [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_States#Explaining_the_gender_pay_gap]but for the time being here is a nice wikipedia part explaining it.[/URL] And for the objectification of women part, the only reason I brought up only women is because I was talking about women's problems so I felt it was only necessary to bring up one of the sexes. For your information though, feminists do fight for both sex's objectification not just females. Kinda the same how they fight for both male and female cases of rape, not just women cases. If they didn't fight for that do you really think someone who had to suffer rape as a male would want to associate with a group that didn't care about me? Of course not![/QUOTE] idk mang, if there was really a wage gap wouldn't it just make more sense to never hire men, cutting costs and increasing the bottom line and all that.
[QUOTE=gazzy_GUI;48550098]idk mang, if there was really a wage gap wouldn't it just make more sense to never hire men, cutting costs and increasing the bottom line and all that.[/QUOTE] That is what people would think but in reality the reason more women are not hired is because of a deeply ingrained (and not always conscious) thought that women are somehow less skilled and less competent in a workplace. Part of the reason the wage gap exists is because of this.
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