I know someone who is non-binary that explained it pretty well to me years ago, but they never used that word. For some reason I thought non-binary meant a gender that moved off in some direction that was not toward either female or male, which is something that definitely doesn't make sense to me.
[QUOTE=benbb;52937294]My mind really can't fathom the idea of being 'non-binary'. I don't even know how that works.
Transgenderism I can understand kind of but in my mind you're either a man or a woman. If you're floating about and can't decide you're still either male or female - 1 or 0.
You can have traits of either gender (like being a feminine man or a masculine woman) but you're still one or the other.
Am I getting the wrong end of the stick here?[/QUOTE]
non binary is kind of a silly term but for some people that experience gender dysphoria it may not be consistent enough for them to feel like they want or need to transition.
If the gender dysphoria affects them 40% of the time but the other 60% they're comfortable with who they are then it may be a mistake for the person to transition. It's a massive decision that not everybody is comfortable undertaking. Not everybody that experiences gender dysphoria is male to female or female to male.
Plus not to mention that some people try to transition and are ostracised and made fun of because they don't look enough like the gender they want to be. For some people the discomfort and bullying that comes with that may be much worse than the dysphoria they experience.
the whole thing isn't binary, you can't walk in to a doctors office and say "ok im a woman now", it's a goal that sticks with them for their entire life and can take months to multiple years to reach. which is why it's so confusing for so many people that experience it and one of the reason the suicide rate is so high from sufferers of gender dysphoria.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;52938598]yes i know the altright are fucking retards and shouldn't be listened to under any circumstance, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't take a look at our side for any issues that may prop up[/QUOTE]
I agree completely, but it doesn't matter how much we try to stay clean and monitor radicals within our ranks, as long as the political right destroy lives with shitty tax "reforms" and taking away health care, as well as discriminate on minorities, it will be out of our hands. We need the moderate right to pull it's weight here too and that involves focusing on the shittiness of the alt right and not the SJW narrative.
I mean right now, the left's politicans in the anglo sphere are the furthest thing from radical so we are doing a decent job on that front at least.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52937413]dude i do not give a fuck what you call me. i'd wear a dress if it looked good on me, the same way i would wear a suit if it looked good on me. i fuckin wish i had girl hair because there's so much more you can do with it. for me, nonbinary is more about a lack of care than it is anything else. you can call me a she or a he, though I'm probably going to be more receptive to he because its what I am conditioned to.
call me whatever is most convenient[/QUOTE]
You just want to look fabulous.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52937413]dude i do not give a fuck what you call me. i'd wear a dress if it looked good on me, the same way i would wear a suit if it looked good on me. i fuckin wish i had girl hair because there's so much more you can do with it. for me, nonbinary is more about a lack of care than it is anything else. you can call me a she or a he, though I'm probably going to be more receptive to he because its what I am conditioned to.
call me whatever is most convenient[/QUOTE]
david bowie is that you
I find it strange that she finds the fact that she peacefully protested about gender neutral bathrooms as SOO cringed. When did protest become such a negative thing?
I wouldn't consider myself very SJW but I don't think asking for gender neutral bathrooms is really a big deal. Even if you don't believe in non-binary it's still useful for transgender people who just feel uncomfortable with what bathroom they choose because they will be judged.
For me an sjw its What RichyZ says. I understand that the Alt-Right calls basically everyone with a progressive view an SJW nowadays and that the term has lost a lot of its meaning.
But that doesnt mean they can't be a problem, like RichyZ said, they can drive off people who were interested in LGBT topics.
Or worse, they can drive someone to near suicide, like it happen with the Steven Universe artist.
It also happened with the Dream Daddy R63 art, but not as bad, where a girl got a lot of Death threats because her fanart was considered Fatphobic, Transphobic, Sexist between many dumb reasons, when it was just a simple piece of R63 fanart.
Both of these cases got so out of hand that the creators of the original product had to intervene.
And this shit keeps happening! Jaltoid, popular youtubers who also do cute (and sometimes lewd) art, had to jump into the defense of some artists who got called pedophiles or X-phobic by sjws on tumblr just because they did hentai art of Hatsune Miku for example.
I get it, I know that The dumbasses at the Alt-right are rising up to be a big problem and they sure as hell love to call everyone who disagrees with them either a SJW or a cuck or well... both :P
And we have to call them out or fight them (hopefully not violently) to make them stop.
But we also have to call out the actual sjws when they also do their stupid shit.
To clarify, the Steven Universe art Tumblr was a bizarre 4chan project. The suicide attempt was planned and faked, there was no single person behind it.
Got any proof for that claim?
Honestly never heard that its fake and I would be glad if it is
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;52938818]To clarify, the Steven Universe art Tumblr was a bizarre 4chan project. The suicide attempt was planned and faked, there was no single person behind it.[/QUOTE]
Wasnt that unrelated to the harassment thing?
The 4chan project came after the first one, which had to do with getting a skin tone wrong or something.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;52938489]for sure, but the op video and most people in the thread are referring to the actual definition[/QUOTE]
I mean there is no "actual definition" because it's not a proper term. It's a slang term, and people will have a general sense of what you mean when you say it, but it's not an organized group or a defined word. Basically a "SJW" is whatever anti-SJW's/alt-right people define them as. And yes, that even includes even just saying "people of color."
The "APOLOGIZE FOR BEING CIS" crowd, well... Isn't a crowd? They're the few manics, but what everyone called "ugh, a SJW" a few years ago is actually a lot more agreed upon. Ask me a few years ago, I'd say "nonbinary? Yeah, that's a load of shit." Now? I'm considering if I'm that, myelf. You'd make a casual joke saying "hah, don't worry, a cop won't bother you; you're white!" Now we have movies like Get Out being widely known and people more and more saying "you know, that's actually a serious point."
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;52938948]I mean there is no "actual definition" because it's not a proper term. It's a slang term, and people will have a general sense of what you mean when you say it, but it's not an organized group or a defined word. Basically a "SJW" is whatever anti-SJW's/alt-right people define them as. And yes, that even includes even just saying "people of color."
The "APOLOGIZE FOR BEING CIS" crowd, well... Isn't a crowd? They're the few manics, but what everyone called "ugh, a SJW" a few years ago is actually a lot more agreed upon. Ask me a few years ago, I'd say "nonbinary? Yeah, that's a load of shit." Now? I'm considering if I'm that, myelf. You'd make a casual joke saying "hah, don't worry, a cop won't bother you; you're white!" Now we have movies like Get Out being widely known and people more and more saying "you know, that's actually a serious point."[/QUOTE]
Since the SJW term now its quite vague, and like you said, it has no Actual definition I will try to call not call them that, its just this group of people who are so up their ass with their Political correctness that they go full hypocritical when they react to someone who they might find his/her opinions "Offensive".
They make the Dolores Umbridge Paradox go on Full effect, where Usually the fandoms focused on more dark and violent stuff are surprisingly the chilliest (like the Doom Community or the Isaac community, goddamn they are really fucking nice!), and Fandoms focused on the cute stuff ended up being a bunch of upwitty jerkasses or even worse, Like the Steven Universe or Undertale Fandom (The Needle Cookie happened with the latest one).
Of course this is not always the case (the LISA community would fit EXACTLY the LISA world, its hell, but a hell i honestly kinda like).
[B]EDIT:[/B] I havent found anything that shows that the SU Artist being driven near suicide was made up by 4chan, The only thing made up by 4chan near that time related to SU was the Steven Universe Whitewashing to piss off the most extreme fans, like AaronM202 said.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;52938598]
i dont really like how shes like "oh but libertarianism is the best thing" at the end considering how selfish the idealogy is but it's just an interesting view on how views change and how you can grow as a person by listening to other schools of thought[/QUOTE]
Personally, I don't see extreme changes in views as a sign of growing up. Rather, I see it as someone who's not really capable of the self-reflection needed to derive a reasonable, consistent world-view and will just go along with any cause they feel gives them a purpose.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;52939288]Personally, I don't see extreme changes in views as a sign of growing up. Rather, I see it as someone who's not really capable of the self-reflection needed to derive a reasonable, consistent world-view and will just go along with any cause they feel gives them a purpose.[/QUOTE]
Uuuh, what if you go from being immature to self-reflecting to developing a reasonable and consistent world view that you carry from that point onwards?
How is that not growing up?
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52938674]Who's writing this in stone? Whose making sure everyone is on the same page here? like I'm sorry if this seems like its going in circles, but what I'm trying to get across is that this definition battle isn't really a battle any[U]one[/U] can win. It's not like scientifically classifying minerals or animals where there's an objective truth that exists regardless of what humans think.
There's a large non zero sum of people whose only exposure to the idea of SJW is anyone who cares about social issues, and that part of their brain is going to light up whenever they see the word and they're going to misunderstand what you're saying and yourself as a person, if you keep describing complex ideas in such open ended terms.[/QUOTE]
Definitions always change. Nobody really fits 100% to a definition.
Doesn't mean it's not rational to categorize the world with definitions or to defend the meaning definitions have to you
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52938674]Who's writing this in stone? Whose making sure everyone is on the same page here? like I'm sorry if this seems like its going in circles, but what I'm trying to get across is that this definition battle isn't really a battle any[U]one[/U] can win. It's not like scientifically classifying minerals or animals where there's an objective truth that exists regardless of what humans think.
There's a large non zero sum of people whose only exposure to the idea of SJW is anyone who cares about social issues, and that part of their brain is going to light up whenever they see the word and they're going to misunderstand what you're saying and yourself as a person, if you keep describing complex ideas in such open ended terms.[/QUOTE]
You are trying to argue semantics rather than the point. In the end, SJW is just a term originating from the more radical of the online progressives (and iirc, a positive label originating from within). While it's always good to be specific, to so blatantly ignore the definition being used in context of the conversation to yell "WHAT ABOUT THE RIGHTARDS' MISUSE???" is asinine.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;52938646][B]sjw when said by idiot nazis on the alt right[/B] or whatever basically means anyone who has any leftwing views, but generally any time ive seen a normal human say it, it's in reference to the kind of people who can't accept anything but the most extremist left views as even palatable[/QUOTE]
I feel like this statement is very easy to apply to both sides here.
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;52937179]I agree with a lot of this but I worry that legitimate non-binary people are getting caught in the crossfire of anti-sjw pushback, and these "ex-nonbinary" and "ex-SJW" videos and stuff really don't help with that.[/QUOTE]
That's the great tragedy/irony though.
Because they're using "fighting for X group" as a morale claim to virtue, and as a cover for their extreme ideas. (Collectivism, marxist model idea of society, equity/equality of outcome, social constructivism etc) And all they're doing in the end is (in the public consciousness) associating these terrible ideas as intractably linked to all these groups/causes/whatever.
Y'know, i'm gay, and you get these people who claim on live TV or in other public spaces that "on behalf of the LBGTwhatever community/collective, something something and so on" or "[URL="https://youtu.be/kasiov0ytEc?t=681"]basically it's not correct that there's such a thing as biological sex[/URL]", well frankly, if they're making the claim that A) we're a collective and B) that they can then speak for me, and thereby publically define my image as this batshit crazy nonsense. To which i say fuck off, and i have my own goddamn voice, don't drag me down into the pit with you, respectively. And i would be lying if i said i didn't feel a little ashamed to be potentially associated with these people because they're publically claiming, functionally uncontested, that they represent me, thus associating me with this madness. And that's for a fairly "mainstream" and publically accepted thing, if we're honest. For someone who feels so compelled as to reject the idea of gender identities or feel that they are or they should be the opposite sex, i can only imagine it being far worse to have your sole public voice being a reprehensible band of fifth columnist ideologues, and no-one else.
But let's presume you have someone who genuinely buys into this sort of thing, believing it to be the solution to these ills/problems/etc, in a genuine earnesty and good intent. In effect they're doing nothing but [I]damaging[/I] those they claim to act in the interests of. And i can't help but suspect that sometime in the near future this is going to flip backwards [I]hard[/I], and frankly that's a road i'd rather not travel.
[QUOTE=BlackPhoenix;52937305]Imagine feeling like you're not supposed to be male, but at the same time knowing that transitioning to female would leave you with very much the same feelings - the change of gender does not remove the problem for you.[/QUOTE]
But you are still a woman or a man. The idea (from what i understood what he meant and also agree) is that you can be a boy or girl physically and nothing beyond that should affect your gender. The moment you do / not do a transition, you are still commiting to either side. There cant be a "sorta girl with extra dick" gender,
[QUOTE=CruelAddict;52943487]But you are still a woman or a man. The idea (from what i understood what he meant and also agree) is that you can be a boy or girl physically and nothing beyond that should affect your gender. The moment you do / not do a transition, you are still commiting to either side. [B]There cant be a "sorta girl with extra dick" gender,[/B][/QUOTE]
Who said so?
[QUOTE=CruelAddict;52943487]But you are still a woman or a man. The idea (from what i understood what he meant and also agree) is that you can be a boy or girl physically and nothing beyond that should affect your gender. The moment you do / not do a transition, you are still commiting to either side. There cant be a "sorta girl with extra dick" gender,[/QUOTE]
What if you are born without any gonads or both sets of them? How do you resolve that "gender"?
Your gender is not dependent on your genitals. Most of the time they go hand in hand but that's not what's the determining factor.
[editline]3rd December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Berman Slick;52943568]What a sad, self-victimizing way to look at the world. I don't wake up feeling like a man, just myself. Everyone else does that in their life, too.[/QUOTE]
I'm gonna assume you're a dude. Imagine tomorrow you wake up as a fat, hairy, balding guy with a face that you find disgusting. And you are the only one who noticed the change. Do you go "yeah dude, that's who I am, I fully accept my new body and face" or do you feel like who you're seeing in the mirror is not you?
Now imagine you always had this feeling when looking in the mirror, you just didn't have the "original" body to compare it to, so you compared to other people.
[QUOTE=Berman Slick;52943568]
Biology[/QUOTE]
Biology defines sex, not gender.
Non-binary genders are largely accepted by the scientific community anyway. These "open up a biology textbook" counterarguments are getting [I]real[/I] fuckin old.
[QUOTE=Berman Slick;52943568]Oh man, she lives in my hometown / went to the university I'm going to next year. Interesting insight indeed, and nice to see someone who saw through the BS and can reflect on her own BS so honestly. I'd be interested to meet her, she seems like she's learned a lot, and started the bloody Men's Rights club at SFU. That takes serious ovaries yo.
The "Shit-In" and incredible amount of in-group shaming for disagreeing with even one point of their ideology is what scares me so much about SJWs. It's illogical at best most of the time, and they make up issues just to feel like they're doing something important, attacking people who don't feel as victimized. How is that going to help anyone? 99% of the time they're destructive to their own causes because having a tantrum doesn't solve anything. Kids get time-outs over it, but I guess these people didn't learn that lesson/had classicly too-lax parents that let them do whatever they want.
Had a discussion in a local chat about the Vancouver Police not being able to march in uniform at our Pride parade next year because BLM basically gave them an ultimatum, and some [sp]two[/sp] people absolutely went full retard with "all cops oppress us, our marginalized communities are afraid of them, reeeeeee, cops are nazis, how dare they", when cops here offer rainbow-badge safe-space stickers to businesses saying "come here, minorities, we'll protect you!".
Basically because cops were rude to gays in the 70s here, SJWs here think that "their presence scares us and threatens gay people", when they've become incredible allies in the last 20 years. 99% of these SJWs weren't even alive to experience that negative interaction period, they just heard about it online and got mad, thinking they're entitled to protest shit that doesn't happen anymore. We're so proud that people in the Police here are proud to be gay, how their colleagues are so supportive of them (tons of cops in Pride aren't even gay, they just want to be there and march with their peers), and now they can't march in uniform, the most important symbol of their occupation, because BLM, a group that has nothing to do with Vancouver, gay people, or the city's problems, said "WAH NO COPS OR WE SHUT YOU DOWN". I mean shit, there were like 5 marijuana floats and that stuff is still /technically/ illegal.
[sp]my friends and I, a group of maybe 20+ of us, are going to buy shitty halloween cop uniforms and slip in between floats in our group to make our own little parade presence, with signs like "BLM may not love you, but we still love the VPD" and whatnot. idgaf arrest me for civil disobedience[/sp]
[editline]3rd December 2017[/editline]
Biology
[editline]3rd December 2017[/editline]
What a sad, self-victimizing way to look at the world. I don't wake up feeling like a man, just myself. Everyone else does that in their life, too. It's only when we walk out into society that we see these still-quite-strict gender ideas pressing back against our identities that problems emerge. That doesn't mean you feel "incorrect", but that society is incorrect /at/ you.
Realizing I was truly bi (which at 15 scared me so much I only thought I was gay/"a fag") didn't make me feel broken, it just worried me how society would view me. I was perfectly at peace with myself. I didn't see myself as a victim, but as someone that existed as they were, and that place in society was still an issue that needed addressing. Nothing is wrong with me, society just needs to open its mind to ways of life that aren't typical, but are still healthy and fine. Just because I didn't fit in didn't mean I don't belong.
That's the difference between logical people and SJWs. Logical people address issues and can look at themselves for the cause of issues as much as the outside world. Becoming a victim on purpose so people pay more attention to you and feel sorry for you doesn't help anyone, it's destructive to their causes.[/QUOTE]
You reminded me, the amount of times any side just forgets that bisexuals even exist is quite astounding
[sp](And so is the amount of "bisexuals schmixesuals, you're just gay in denial" coming from both sides, too)[/sp]
[QUOTE=Berman Slick;52943568]
What a sad, self-victimizing way to look at the world. I don't wake up feeling like a man, just myself. Everyone else does that in their life, too. It's only when we walk out into society that we see these still-quite-strict gender ideas pressing back against our identities that problems emerge. That doesn't mean you feel "incorrect", but that society is incorrect /at/ you.
Realizing I was truly bi (which at 15 scared me so much I only thought I was gay/"a fag") didn't make me feel broken, it just worried me how society would view me. I was perfectly at peace with myself. I didn't see myself as a victim, but as someone that existed as they were, and that place in society was still an issue that needed addressing. Nothing is wrong with me, society just needs to open its mind to ways of life that aren't typical, but are still healthy and fine. Just because I didn't fit in didn't mean I don't belong.
That's the difference between logical people and SJWs. Logical people address issues and can look at themselves for the cause of issues as much as the outside world. Becoming a victim on purpose so people pay more attention to you and feel sorry for you doesn't help anyone, it's destructive to their causes.[/QUOTE]
Oh, [I]thank you[/I] so [I]much.[/I] You've just solved [I]all my problems.[/I]
Look, I've come out as bi and I'm in the process of coming out as trans (probably). And I can say with confidence that those two experiences actually have little to do with each other.
Like you, I was always at peace with myself regarding sexuality, and was only worried about others/about society/whatever. Because being gay is fine, and I already knew and accepted that, so it really wasn't that difficult past a brief period of denial. Luckily, my environment was positive towards LGBT stuff so I didn't face the struggles many gay people face.
Transness is a whole other fucking ball game, okay. It's way more internal than external. Because your body isn't the right one. It's not at all as much about others as coming out as gay is. I could be the last person on earth, living as a shitty nomad in the Sahara desert, and still feel like shit about my male features. (I'm only speaking for myself here. Others' trans experiences may and will be drastically different. End disclaimer.)
I am NOT self-victimizing. The truth is that every day I wake up in a male body hating myself due to the nature of being trans - and society has pretty much jack shit to do with it.
[quote]
What a sad, self-victimizing way to look at the world. I don't wake up feeling like a man, just myself. Everyone else does that in their life, too. It's only when we walk out into society that we see these still-quite-strict gender ideas pressing back against our identities that problems emerge. That doesn't mean you feel "incorrect", but that society is incorrect /at/ you.
Realizing I was truly bi (which at 15 scared me so much I only thought I was gay/"a fag") didn't make me feel broken, it just worried me how society would view me. I was perfectly at peace with myself. I didn't see myself as a victim, but as someone that existed as they were, and that place in society was still an issue that needed addressing.[/quote]
I don't get libertarian/rightwing-ish people's obsession with "not being a victim."
It's actually perfectly fine to "be a victim" when you actually are one. Although the answer may be that you can feel superior if you present X circumstance but then say "yeah but it don't bother me none lol," with people frequently neglecting the blessings they may have had.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52943730]I don't get libertarian/rightwing-ish people's obsession with "not being a victim."
It's actually perfectly fine to "be a victim" when you actually are one. Although the answer may be that you can feel superior if you present X circumstance but then say "yeah but it don't bother me none lol," with people frequently neglecting the blessings they may have had.[/QUOTE]
It's because they take the "bootstraps" economics propaganda they've been fed and apply it to social issues.
I would probably be classified as "anti-sjw" because I think feminist ideology gender aka social-sex is dumb because it is essentially celebrated sexism, dealing problems not by letting people be and do what they desire regardless are they men or women but instead enforcing what men and women can do and be under the presumption of being progressive.
Not to talk about if you go and let that ideology breed and evolve there will never be the day USA will ever have female president because a woman can't be in such position because it is "male" job making her trans.
Same goes with weird American "progressive ideology" with how to deal with racism, put race on pedestal and segregate people as seen one some campuses, clearly you will be dealing with racism once for all by doing that instead of creating much more clash between people because you try your hardest to put people into different groups.
US just seems like such backwards place.
[QUOTE=Combine 177;52943743]I would probably be classified as "anti-sjw" because I think feminist ideology gender aka social-sex is dumb because it is essentially celebrated sexism, dealing problems not by letting people be and do what they desire regardless are they men or women but instead enforcing what men and women can do and be under the presumption of being progressive.
[B]Not to talk about if you go and let that ideology breed and evolve there will never be the day USA will ever have female president because a woman can't be in such position because it is "male" job making her trans.[/B]
Same goes with weird American "progressive ideology" with how to deal with racism, put race on pedestal and segregate people as seen one some campuses, clearly you will be dealing with racism once for all by doing that instead of creating much more clash between people because you try your hardest to put people into different groups.
US just seems like such backwards place.[/QUOTE]
????
uh which strawman we talking about here?
[QUOTE=Berman Slick;52943568]Biology=[/QUOTE]
But this is sociology/psychology, my dude.
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