guns vs conspiracy - General

[QUOTE=MaverickIB;48503857]If by gotten along fine you mean higher violent crime rates, then sure, I guess European nations are the example to follow.[/quote] Violent crime is generally lower in Europe than America though (and guns are not proven to reduce crime rates). Also for the countries which have regular military service for all citizens (like Switzerland), people who own guns still require a license. The difference between our societies is that Europeans don't treat guns as these near holy objects free from scrutiny. The strangest oddity is that it seems almost sacrilegious to collect organised statistics on gun ownership (despite the government already collecting information on land ownership, cars, social security, etc).

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48504471](and guns are not proven to reduce crime rates)[/QUOTE] Seriously... lol :v: [url]http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/[/url] [editline]20th August 2015[/editline] Read edited post

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48504494]Seriously... lol[1][/QUOTE] [1] Source Are credible sources and studies just not cool enough for guns or what's going on?

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;48504521][1] Source Are credible sources and studies just not cool enough for guns or what's going on?[/QUOTE] Well what do you classify as a credible source? Some anti-gun source like CNN? Of course every source is going to have a bias. Dropped a fun link above that talks about common sense. Those of you from Europe just won't get it. It's a totally different culture. Without here, we will just keep screaming at each other and go nowhere. Maybe not having means to defend yourself in Europe is fine but here, it's not okay. Can we just agree on that?

yknow it's funny how quickly you went from [QUOTE=agentfazexx;48504027]More people. More drug problems, more mental health issues, more gang violence, etc.[/QUOTE] "it's not about the guns" to [QUOTE=agentfazexx;48504494]Seriously... lol :v: [url]http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/[/url] [/QUOTE] "it's about the guns"

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48504494]Seriously... lol :v: [url]http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/[/url][/QUOTE] [url]http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=150[/url] [url]http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2443681[/url] At the very best, guns do not decrease crime rates. Most studies which control for extraneous almost always come to the conclusion that having more guns does not equal less crime.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48504526]Well what do you classify as a credible source? Some anti-gun source like CNN? Of course every source is going to have a bias. Dropped a fun link above that talks about common sense. Those of you from Europe just won't get it. It's a totally different culture. Without here, we will just keep screaming at each other and go nowhere. Maybe not having means to defend yourself in Europe is fine but here, it's not okay. Can we just agree on that?[/QUOTE] I can accept cultural differences, but I don't accept you just dismissing arguments for no reason. Just find me a credible study that shows that gun ownership lowers crime in an area, and a different study (or the same) that shows that not counting US cities that match specific criteria when you calculate the murder rate is both justified [I]and[/I] results in a murder rate below the EU average. You can have your guns for all I care, I don't live in the US. Doesn't mean I can't try to challenge your views, though.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;48504545]you europeans don't get it, slavery is part of our culture, maybe in europe your economy can function without it, but here in america it's perfectly ok. can we just agree on that?[/QUOTE] Yup because illegal human rights abuses are totally on par with one defending themselves against violent crime. [editline]20th August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=GoDong-DK;48504564]I can accept cultural differences, but I don't accept you just dismissing arguments for no reason. Just find me a credible study that shows that gun ownership lowers crime in an area, and a different study (or the same) that shows that not counting US cities that match specific criteria when you calculate the murder rate is both justified [I]and[/I] results in a murder rate below the EU average. You can have your guns for all I care, I don't live in the US. Doesn't mean I can't try to challenge your views, though.[/QUOTE] When Facepunch asks for sources, they want sources with a bias leaning towards what they want. Sorry but I can't provide that.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;48504572]things that enable people to inflict grievous bodily harm upon eachother and are accepted no where else in the world (except african countries with no leader/unstable governments)[/QUOTE] Except shooting is also a sport, which is what I enjoy guns for. Target shooting is pretty god damn fun.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48504580]Except shooting is also a sport, which is what I enjoy guns for. Target shooting is pretty god damn fun.[/QUOTE] and because shooting is a sport guns suddenly aren't able to inflict grievous bodily harm?

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;48504587]and because shooting is a sport guns suddenly aren't able to inflict grievous bodily harm?[/QUOTE] Throwing knives is fun too, so is splitting logs. Knives and axes are just as lethal as guns.

Btw the John Lott guy who did the original study saying that more guns = less crime has been discredited for years. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lott#Use_of_econometrics_as_proof_of_causation[/url]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48504592]Btw the John Lott guy who did the original study saying that more guns = less crime has been discredited for years. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lott#Use_of_econometrics_as_proof_of_causation[/url][/QUOTE] Explain to me why gun free areas (like Maryland where we can't carry legally) have the worst crime? States/cities where you can concealed carry legally have the lower crime rates because..? [editline]20th August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=RichyZ;48504599]if videogames were proven to kill people and enable a lot of people to be able to inflict harm on others incredibly easily, i would be ok with the government restricting my right to them to a degree [editline]20th August 2015[/editline] gonna put my 30 round mag into my knife and stab down the bingo hall ever see a man with a knife have a stabout with the police?[/QUOTE] No, because police are there after the fact. High cap mags causing more harm is a bullshit thing. I can swap mags in my AR15 in 2-3 seconds. Limiting to a 10rd mag won't do dick.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48504591]Throwing knives is fun too, so is splitting logs. Knives and axes are just as lethal as guns.[/QUOTE] except they're not [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenpeng_Village_Primary_School_stabbing[/url] 24 people stabbed. 23 of them children, aged 6-11, one of them an 85 year old woman. no casualties

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;48504622]except they're not [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenpeng_Village_Primary_School_stabbing[/url] 24 people stabbed. 23 of them children, aged 6-11, one of them an 85 year old woman. no casualties[/QUOTE] Depends where ya get stabbed bud. Depends where you get shot too.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;48504545]you europeans don't get it, slavery is part of our culture, maybe in europe your economy can function without it, but here in america it's perfectly ok. can we just agree on that?[/QUOTE] Really, we are reduced to arguing like complete fucking morons now? You just compared gun ownership to slavery. Congrats, you are a moron. I swear, you don't have any actual argument besides some bullshit strawman. The fuck is up with you people?Also again, watch the fucking god damn videos I posted! Do you want to learn something or would you rather be a stupid ass troll?

Countries with lots of ethnic tensions and poverty generally have higher violent crime. Plenty of the countries with the highest gun crime rates are in South America and many of these countries such as Brazil have pretty strong gun regulations.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48504626]Depends where ya get stabbed bud. Depends where you get shot too.[/QUOTE] funny how even though you're giving me this bullshit about knives being just as lethal, i keep hearing more about school shootings, not school stabbings

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48504608]Explain to me why gun free areas (like Maryland where we can't carry legally) have the worst crime? States/cities where you can concealed carry legally have the lower crime rates because..?[/QUOTE] When doing science there are more than just two variable at play that you need to consider. The point is that the studies I linked earlier controlled for extraneous variables: [url]http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=150[/url] [url]http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2443681[/url] If you could read these that would be very nice.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48504646]When doing science there are more than just two variable at play that you need to consider. The point is that the studies I linked earlier controlled for extraneous variables: [url]http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=150[/url] [url]http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2443681[/url] If you could read these that would be very nice.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.gunssavelife.com/[/url]

[QUOTE=RichyZ;48504660]i'd rather you posted articles or papers done by universities, videos are generally information regurgitated by a person who is already biased in giving you information [editline]20th August 2015[/editline] anecdotes are ok but strawmen nO I DRAW THE LINE THERE[/QUOTE] [url]http://gunssavelives.net/blog/2012-fbi-homicide-stats-are-out-hammers-fists-killed-3-5x-more-than-rifles/[/url] You refuse to look at shit i give you, so yea... comparing slavery to gun ownership is pretty stupid.

[QUOTE=Pilot1215;48504658][url]http://www.gunssavelife.com/[/url][/QUOTE] you didn't even click on the fucking links

[QUOTE=RichyZ;48504677]and whos to say that people with the rifles would have still killed someone if they didnt have them[/QUOTE] If you want to kill, you find a way to kill. It's pretty simple. Another thing. [url]http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf[/url]

[QUOTE=RichyZ;48504653]south america is a pretty special case what with how the law is basically nonexistant in most parts of it, not to mention the cartel presence[/QUOTE] Not a fan of arming everybody to one day overthrow the government in some kind of revolution but recently people in Mexico banded together and expelled the cartels from their communities. Also.. perhaps the war on drugs, racism and poverty matter more than the regulations. The US probably should stop unrestricted private selling and probably should start keeping track of guns but still, seems like you're a fan of having the entire law-abiding population disarmed, unable to protect themselves.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48504565]When Facepunch asks for sources, they want sources with a bias leaning towards what they want. Sorry but I can't provide that.[/QUOTE] No, I do not. That John Lott guy doesn't have a lot of credibility, though, and the link you posted isn't really a study. It looks only at correlation, and doesn't even consider [I]why[/I] a gun ban was instituted (for example in Ireland), nor does it mention socioeconomic factors. Kinda weird that the gun bans apparently have an incubation period, but I suppose that isn't worth mentioning.

[QUOTE=Pilot1215;48504686]If you want to kill, you find a way to kill. It's pretty simple.[/QUOTE] and its never crossed your mind that some ways of killing are easier than others

[QUOTE=Pilot1215;48504686]If you want to kill, you find a way to kill. It's pretty simple. Another thing. [url]http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf[/url][/QUOTE] Your own article disagrees with you: [quote]Moreover, if the deterrent effect of gun ownership accounts for low violence rates in high gun ownership nations other than the United States, one wonders why that deterrent effect would be amplified there. Even with the drop in United States murder rates that Lott and Mustard attribute to the massive increase in gun carry licensing, the United States murder rate is still eight times higher than Norway’s—even though the U.S. has an almost 300% higher rate of gun ownership. That is consistent with the points made above. Murder rates are determined by socio‐economic and cultural factors. In the United States, those factors include that the number of civilian‐owned guns nearly equals the population—triple the ownership rate in even the highest European gun ownership nations—and that vast numbers of guns are kept for personal defense. That is not a factor in other nations with comparatively high firearm ownership. High gun ownership may well be a factor in the recent drastic decline in American homicide. But even so, American homicide is driven by socio‐economic and cultural factors that keep it far higher than the comparable rate of homicide in most European nations. In sum, though many nations with widespread gun ownership have much lower murder rates than nations that severely restrict gun ownership, it would be simplistic to assume that at all times and in all places widespread gun ownership depresses violence by deterring many criminals into nonconfrontation crime.[/quote]

[QUOTE=RichyZ;48504708]i suggested that but the people arguing for guns think thats retarded i dont care that much about gun ownership, i own a few, they're locked up tight in a safe, i wouldnt give a fuck if the government bought them back or decided to go door to door checking if they were locked people in this thread seem to think that it would be a violation of their rights to prevent private sales and require gun safes for all guns[/QUOTE] You own guns but you're arguing anti-gun? Someone's confused.

To add something, I'm not a fan of arming everyone, but I am a fan of giving people the option. I don't mind background checks, personally I know I can pass them and I do pass them. The issue with a law requiring those is there is not true enforcement mechanism. People will still by them without the check. The only way to really enforce it is by registering guns, in one of the videos I posted essentially breaks that down. There are only so many employees capable of doing that, while there are just as many firearms in the US as American citizens. Gun sells would have to stop and thousands would have to be hired and even then the process to register could take over a year, and would just be almost impossible. Even then, other issues rise up. You can stop it, but without a true way, you can't really enforce it.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;48504731]because im not a child and think that my rights will be taken away if my toys go away the guns wont defend me from shit, fbi statistics proved that pulling a gun in any situation only escalates it and ends up with someone dying[/QUOTE] So, my friend holding a guy at gunpoint with a shotgun who thretened her life never happened. Me pulling a gun on someone for threatening me never happened, the thousands of defensive gun used daily never happened. Also, Sobotnik, no it did not.