guns vs conspiracy - General

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48512749]Did you totally miss what I posted before? [B]States are passing shall issue laws and their crime goes down.[/B][/QUOTE] But the entire point I've been making (and the point of research) is that the crime is not going down /because/ of that, but due to other variables at play. The point of science is to isolate variables from one another in order to determine which the effects that the independent variable actually has.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48512768]But the entire point I've been making (and the point of research) is that the crime is not going down /because/ of that, but due to other variables at play.[/QUOTE] So why have stats that I have read correlated CCW laws being changed and other gun laws being changed, to crime dropping?

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48512785]So why have stats that I have read correlated CCW laws being changed and other gun laws being changed, to crime dropping?[/QUOTE] If you could provide some of the latest research on the matter I'd be happy to read it.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48512803]If you could provide some of the latest research on the matter I'd be happy to read it.[/QUOTE] I'm sure you will, but you have not been open to anything pro-gun ever on this forum so you won't read it open mindedly. There is no swaying your opinion. Guess what, it's pro-gun biased: [url]http://americanfreepress.net/?p=7816[/url] [url]http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/concealed-carry/[/url] [url]http://www.redstate.com/2014/04/04/chicagos-murder-rate-plummets-concealed-carry-law/[/url]

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48512813]I'm sure you will, but you have not been open to anything pro-gun ever on this forum so you won't read it open mindedly. There is no swaying your opinion.[/QUOTE] If you could just link the studies I'd be happy to read them. You read the sources I posted right?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48512828]If you could just link the studies I'd be happy to read them. You read the sources I posted right?[/QUOTE] Yup, and given your previous arguments I took them with the whole salt shaker rather than a grain of salt. You're just looking for some anti-gun studies. I bet I can find studies that say sugar doesn't give people diabetes. Read above.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48512836]Yup[/QUOTE] Which ones? [quote]Guess what, it's pro-gun biased: [url]http://americanfreepress.net/?p=7816[/url][/QUOTE] The source used in the article links (eventually) to this: [url]http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck1.html[/url] I'll be busy with reading it.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48512867]Which ones? The source used in the article links (eventually) to this: [url]http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck1.html[/url] I'll be busy with reading it.[/QUOTE] News flash: most pro-gun articles (not written by crazy right-wing nutjobs) cite fact. Again, you're going to keep finding every "flaw" in everything you read until you're blue in the face from trying to get whatever point across, to a population of another country. You're not gonna sway anyone's opinions or make anyone from the US feel any differently about gun laws. Why do you think Piers Morgan is hated by [B]CNN?[/B] I'd love for you to explain the alternate ending of several stories where good Samaritans carrying a gun legally stopped a massacre. Back this up with your "statistics" bud. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBYSau64LOc[/url] [url]www.kgw.com/story/news/2014/07/24/12405148/[/url] [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBtInW0Qz_I[/url] [url]http://gunssavelives.net/self-defense/arizona-concealed-carrier-shoots-stops-possible-mass-shooting-by-man-armed-with-a-rifle/[/url] [url]http://fox6now.com/2012/03/25/man-credits-concealed-carry-weapon-for-saving-two-lives/[/url]

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48512883]News flash: most pro-gun articles (not written by crazy right-wing nutjobs) cite fact.[/QUOTE] I'm busy reading it. [quote]Data from the NCVS imply that each year there are only about 68,000 defensive uses of guns in connection with assaults and robberies,[16] or about 80,000 to 82,000 if one adds in uses linked with household burglaries.[17] These figures are less than one ninth of the estimates implied by the results of at least thirteen other surveys, summarized in Table 1, most of which have been previously reported.[18] The NCVS estimates imply that about 0.09 of 1% of U.S. households experience a defensive gun use (DGU) in any one year, compared to the Mauser survey's estimate of 3.79% of households over a five year period, or about 0.76% in any one year, assuming an even distribution over the five year period, and no repeat uses.[19][/quote] This here is going into detail about the existing studies about the NCVS and it's shortcomings, instead offering up other studies which I have to start reading now. The citations link to these: [18] [url]http://www.catb.org/esr/guns/point-blank-summary.html[/url] [19] [url]https://www.saf.org/journal/11/mauserfinal.htm[/url] In addition, the article itself by Gary Kleck I'm going to continue reading, so bear with me this will take a while. You also didn't answer my question about whenever or not you read the ones I linked earlier?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48512936]I'm busy reading it. This here is going into detail about the existing studies about the NCVS and it's shortcomings, instead offering up other studies which I have to start reading now. The citations link to these: [18] [url]http://www.catb.org/esr/guns/point-blank-summary.html[/url] [19] [url]https://www.saf.org/journal/11/mauserfinal.htm[/url] In addition, the article itself by Gary Kleck I'm going to continue reading, so bear with me this will take a while. You also didn't answer my question about whenever or not you read the ones I linked earlier?[/QUOTE] Dude I honestly don't care what anti-gun shit you come up with. I am pro-gun because they are fun as fuck to shoot (I've been shooting as a hobby/sport for about 20 years) and because they have saved my life. Anything you post will be countered with personal experience. We have gone thru seven pages of this and you have cited the same bullshit. Just drop it.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48512961]Dude I honestly don't care what anti-gun shit you come up with. I am pro-gun because they are fun as fuck to shoot (I've been shooting as a hobby/sport for about 20 years) and because they have saved my life. Anything you post will be countered with personal experience. We have gone thru seven pages of this and you have cited the same bullshit. Just drop it.[/QUOTE] Those links aren't anti-gun bullshit, they're literally the ones you cited (albeit indirectly). I'm reading them right now.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48512961]Dude I honestly don't care what anti-gun shit you come up with. I am pro-gun because they are fun as fuck to shoot (I've been shooting as a hobby/sport for about 20 years) and because they have saved my life. Anything you post will be countered with personal experience. We have gone thru seven pages of this and you have cited the same bullshit. Just drop it.[/QUOTE] So you're quite literally willing to stay totally ignorant on a topic because "hurr hurr I like this". Man, you really are missing out on a whole fucking world of cool information. Much like that other thread where you were vehemently posting inane shit about that monk who immolated himself, you are once again refusing to actually read into a topic and understand the why and how of it. If you actually read this "anti-gun shit" that Sobotnik is apparently just "coming up with" (pro tip: peer-reviewed journals, statistical analysis and [I]the scientific method[/I] are not make believe) you might actually understand the stance many of us who are pro-control view the whole thing from. I sure as shit understand why you think you need firearms, but based on evidence I have seen and articles I've read do not see it as a strong enough argument to keep that right. Also stop fucking linking to Fox News, it's embarrassing everybody involved. Stop telling others that they shouldn't be parents when you clearly don't have the mental strength to pull yourself out of your own safety zone. [editline]22nd August 2015[/editline] Also: personal experience means jack shit when you're arguing statistics. Stop arguing anecdotes and start finding hard numbers that back you up. Appealing to emotions ("i saved my life", etc.) is not how you sway people who actually know what they are doing in a discussion. It's how you rally morons.

More anti-gun viewpoints from Brits. No surprise there. Still waiting to hear what would have happened had I not used a firearm to save my life, and had friends of mine not done the same...along with alternate endings of the stories I posted before.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48512638] [B]I have personally saved my own life and know tons of others that have used firearms to save lives without firing a shot. How can you argue against this?[/B][/QUOTE] You can't because it's anecdotal evidence, your "Yeah but it works for me!" testimonials hold no water in an argument. I could come up with plenty of personal experiences as to why I believe x should be banned, does that make them valid? Not really lol.

[QUOTE=xamllew;48513154]You can't because it's anecdotal evidence, your "Yeah but it works for me!" testimonials have no place in an argument.[/QUOTE] Multiple real life situations have no bearing on real-world? Yeah okay.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48513153]More anti-gun viewpoints from Brits. No surprise there. Still waiting to hear what would have happened had I not used a firearm to save my life, and had friends of mine not done the same...along with alternate endings of the stories I posted before.[/QUOTE] wicked rebuttal man you sure showed me how wrong i am! Have some fucking decency and actually partake in a debate you clearly want to take part in rather than trying to throw out witty zings about "hehe euros" or whatever the fuck you think you're doing. In every fucken thread about gun control the pro-control side seem to largely actually fucking argue our points. In response we get shit like this post up here and Fox News articles about a guy saving someone that one time. And what point would there be in me "what-if"'ing your personal anecdote? It'd still be just that, an anecdote. [editline]22nd August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=agentfazexx;48513157]Multiple real life situations have no bearing on real-world? Yeah okay.[/QUOTE] Look at the bigger picture for once please. Your one or two stories have little to no impact in the grand scheme of things. The totality of everything we can find out is how we decide legal matters, not "oh this guy said a thing so we should do that now".

[QUOTE=hexpunK;48513168]wicked rebuttal man you sure showed me how wrong i am! Have some fucking decency and actually partake in a debate you clearly want to take part in rather than trying to throw out witty zings about "hehe euros" or whatever the fuck you think you're doing. In every fucken thread about gun control the pro-control side seem to largely actually fucking argue our points. In response we get shit like this post up here and Fox News articles about a guy saving someone that one time. And what point would there be in me "what-if"'ing your personal anecdote? It'd still be just that, an anecdote.[/QUOTE] Let's agree on this: Stay in Britain where you don't have guns and it works. I'll stay here in the US where guns have saved my life and lives of others that I know, and it works for me. Okay? Okay. That's all there is to discuss.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48513157]Multiple real life situations have no bearing on real-world? Yeah okay.[/QUOTE] No not really when dealing with facts and statistical evidence you really shouldn't bring up personal experience to prove your point. It really means nothing, I could come up with examples in my life where I felt threatened by irresponsible gun owners but that wouldn't make my point any more valid because even if my story could be proven true it's just one story.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48513183]Let's agree on this: Stay in Britain where you don't have guns and it works. I'll stay here in the US where guns have saved my life and lives of others that I know, and it works for me. Okay? Okay. That's all there is to discuss.[/QUOTE] Nah this is a cop-out and nowhere near fun. Get over here dammit I want to talk gun control with you again. You got banned the last few times I think because you get actually pissed off at the concept if I remember? Oh yeah, you did; [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1462750&p=47615070&viewfull=1#post47615070[/url] [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1443232&p=46782064&viewfull=1#post46782064[/url] You've managed to give yourself an almost perfect victim complex and think that anybody even considering the discussion of such topics is actively shitting down your throat or something. Divorce yourself from the emotional attachment to some fucking weapons and find hard evidence that supports your side. You'll feel better for it and might actually learn things.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;48513241]Nah this is a cop-out and nowhere near fun. Get over here dammit I want to talk gun control with you again. You got banned the last few times I think because you get actually pissed off at the concept if I remember? Oh yeah, you did; [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1462750&p=47615070&viewfull=1#post47615070[/url] [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1443232&p=46782064&viewfull=1#post46782064[/url] You've managed to give yourself an almost perfect victim complex and think that anybody even considering the discussion of such topics is actively shitting down your throat or something. Divorce yourself from the emotional attachment to some fucking weapons and find hard evidence that supports your side. You'll feel better for it and might actually learn things.[/QUOTE] You're not gonna sway my opinion bud.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48513267]You're not gonna sway my opinion bud.[/QUOTE] Dude just let the thread die.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48513267]You're not gonna sway my opinion bud.[/QUOTE] And you're not even trying to sway ours, instead holing up in your own world. Come on, learning things can be genuinely fun and interesting. Even if you still think "no i want the shoots", you might come out of it with some understanding of the ramifications of such a thing at a societal level.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;48513310]And you're not even trying to sway ours, instead holing up in your own world. Come on, learning things can be genuinely fun and interesting. Even if you still think "no i want the shoots", you might come out of it with some understanding of the ramifications of such a thing at a societal level.[/QUOTE] Good God this is a stupid post. Of course, coming from a Brit...trying to change US gun laws. Piers Morgan would love you :)

EvilMattress knows what's up, don't you guys get sick of pointlessly debating over this? You're not going to change the minds of people on an internet forum who are immersed in a totally different country/culture than you by shoving statistics and research papers in their face. Why not go outside and get some fresh air instead? I'll however throw in my two cents lol; hoping that you don't get killed by a person or animal that is threatening your life in the moment isn't going to save your life, but a gun in your hands gives you the option to fight or intimidate. Americans like having the choice to protect themselves and telling them that they shouldn't have that choice because yadda yadda and that it works out in other places (like Europe) means jack shit because America isn't those other places. Totally different situation with a culture founded upon choice in one's life.

[QUOTE=WoodenSpoon;48513987]EvilMattress knows what's up, don't you guys get sick of pointlessly debating over this? You're not going to change the minds of people on an internet forum who are immersed in a totally different country/culture than you by shoving statistics and research papers in their face. Why not go outside and get some fresh air instead? I'll however throw in my two cents lol; hoping that you don't get killed by a person or animal that is threatening your life in the moment isn't going to save your life, but a gun in your hands gives you the option to fight or intimidate. Americans like having the choice to protect themselves and telling them that they shouldn't have that choice because yadda yadda and that it works out in other places (like Europe) means jack shit because America isn't those other places. Totally different situation with a culture founded upon choice in one's life.[/QUOTE] You're right, the gun saturation means criminals will always have guns regardless of law, our gun culture locks us into a state of needing to be armed or being defenseless in a heavily armed country. It's kinda a catch-22 situation in that the only way to deal with the problem is more guns.

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48513733]Good God this is a stupid post. Of course, coming from a Brit...trying to change US gun laws. Piers Morgan would love you :)[/QUOTE] you posted an article in favour of your argument (with an admitted pro-gun bias). when i later posted the exact same source used by the article you said it was "anti-gun bullshit"

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48513733]Good God this is a stupid post. Of course, coming from a Brit...trying to change US gun laws. Piers Morgan would love you :)[/QUOTE] Coming from a guy who thinks if you don't spoon with your AR every night you deserve to have your citizenship revoked. Alex Jones would love you. :)

[QUOTE=xamllew;48514466]It's kinda a catch-22 situation in that the only way to deal with the problem is more guns.[/QUOTE] Well you could forcibly disarm the population but that would be hassle than its worth. [QUOTE=EvilMattress;48513293]Dude just let the thread die.[/QUOTE] If you want a thread to die just stop posting in it?

[QUOTE=xamllew;48515326]Coming from a guy who thinks if you don't spoon with your AR every night you deserve to have your citizenship revoked. Alex Jones would love you. :)[/QUOTE] Everyone should stop posting in this thread.

[QUOTE=xamllew;48515326]Coming from a guy who thinks if you don't spoon with your AR every night you deserve to have your citizenship revoked. Alex Jones would love you. :)[/QUOTE] That reminds me of the night I spooned with my AK because I heard some guys right outside my apartment window having a conversation about how they just felt like shooting someone that night. Anyone. How they'd probably shoot the first motherfucker they saw. This was right outside my bedroom window (the laundry room right outside it was a common social place). They could have easily just turned their heads to the left and gone, "Let's make it him." They actually did go shoot up a house that night, just somewhere in a different part of town. The main problem with gun control is money can always make an exception. With enough money, you can pay for all of the tax stamps and licenses and whatever, own whatever gun you want. Gun control does not affect people with money. It does, however, affect the poor, that's who it disarms. Gun control doesn't take the AR-15 away from the Billy Badass with a ranch who makes shitloads of money and can afford a minigun, it takes the 100 dollar Jennings .22 from the mother of 4 living in Detroit. It takes the AK away from the guy who lives right next to a Motel 6 in town known for spawning most of the convenience store robbers and violent crime offenders. Hell, guns are distributed freely in Texas, yet I still saw a lot of them being brought over from Mexico. In high school, a guy would pull up in the parking lot after school and sell SKS rifles for 200 bucks a pop that he picked up in Mexico. People coming in with the European argument seem to not realize banned firearms would only open up a massive market for smuggling them in from Mexico. The notion that criminals would still be able to get guns even if there was a full-blown blanket ban and confiscation is a very likely foresight.