[QUOTE=archangel125;22771836]Americans, Britishers, Canadians, and other nationals whose soldiers are serving as part of the Coalition, put aside your blind patriotism for a while and hear me out. I spent the first thirteen years of my life in the Middle East, and I'm familiar, to an extent, with the way people there think. It's easy for the big rich western empire to brand anyone who opposes them a terrorist, but how many of us, through the veil of news propaganda, are looking at the big picture? Let's look at Iraq in this case, since it's the most obvious example by far. The United States really, really had no reason whatsoever to go into Iraq. The claim that sending thousands of armed troops across a border had the noble intention of dethroning a dictator is so much hot air. Since the United States invaded Iraq, many tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians have died because of firefights, accidents with hellfire missiles, explosives, etc. - that's a LOT of women and children. Unless the Western world suffers under the delusion that the lives of brown people are somehow cheaper than those of Anglo-Saxons, I'm sure we agree that something is wrong.
What disgusts me the most by far, however, is the fact that in the event we capture some of the militiamen that are attacking US troops, we try them as terrorists or as common criminals. Sometimes - no, most times - they're held for many years without a hope of a trial. And the trials are shams.
It's fucking disgusting. War is bad. People die. Get over it. If the United States expects the enemy to form ranks and march like sheep into a hail of their bullets, they've got another thing coming.
Look at it from their point of view. A foreign western nation has invaded their country (or, in the case of foreign national militants, the country of an ally or relative.) Hundreds of people are dying every month. They have no army to defend them. Many of them will have lost people they loved to US explosive ordinance fuck-ups. Are they not justified in resisting the invaders?
To try them as criminals is just sickening. They should be treated as POWs.
Unless you've played too much Call of Duty and think that one guy with an AK47 can kill hundreds of tanks and helicopters and thousands of troops singlehandedly, you'll know that the guerilla hit-and-run tactics they've been employing are the only ones that will work.
I don't claim to know who is right and wrong, but I do consider the enemy legitimate combatants, even if white US politicians who are obviously motivated by racial prejudice try to claim otherwise.
If you disagree, please tell me why.[/QUOTE]
So you complain when they DO get a trial and are tried as criminals.
And you complain when they DON'T get a trial and are treated as POW's.
WAT.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22909232]
most problems caused by the United States[/QUOTE]
Hate to break this to you but middle easterners have been killing each other since long before the U.S. got involved.
Hell, since before even any European power got involved.
[QUOTE=Rofl_copter;22775224][IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IzGDYJE7jOs/RlezyjdEWoI/AAAAAAAAAXs/pcPul6wqygw/s320/falluja_bridge.jpg[/IMG]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_military_company[/url]
[I]On March 31, 2004, four American private contractors belonging to the company Blackwater USA were killed by insurgents in Fallujah as they drove through the town. They were dragged from their car in one of the most violent attacks on U.S. contractors in the conflict. Following the attack, an angry mob mutilated and burned the bodies, dragging them through the streets before they were hung on a bridge.[/I]
I do not call animals that have hung private contracts and mutilated their bodies human.
Contractors don't deserve all the shit they get.[/QUOTE]
lol, the contractors who fire at civilian drivers to see their cars crash, the contractors who used grenades to slaughter innocent men/women/children?
and you want to call pissed off people who don't want to deal with this shit animals?
PMC's are some of the worse breaches of human rights and the Geneva convention in the 1st world. Not even US soldiers like them
[editline]11:32PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=GunFox;22909427]So you complain when they DO get a trial and are tried as criminals.
And you complain when they DON'T get a trial and are treated as POW's.
WAT.[/QUOTE]
way to read the OP
in b4 gunfox defends atrocities
[editline]11:33PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=tomcat13;22909494]Hate to break this to you but middle easterners have been killing each other since long before the U.S. got involved.
Hell, since before even any European power got involved.[/QUOTE]
Well of course there's been violence, but fuck, look at the modern political destabilisation, and almost ALL of it is linked back to the US
[editline]11:35PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=lulzbocks;22905506]Which Iraqis exactly? I'm sure the Kurds would disagree with you.[/QUOTE]
Actually a lot of people who suffered under Saddam, albeit initially in favour of the US, feel a lot of times the US is worse. Countless interviews in documentaries/stories etc say this
[QUOTE=Warhol;22909498]
way to read the OP
in b4 gunfox defends atrocities
[/QUOTE]
Okay what would you have done?
You seem to have the answer for everything, kiddo, so go on. Now is your time. How would you handle Iraq?
We're all on the same page that we never should have gone and that staying was an equally poor decision. So now how would you handle the insurgency?
[QUOTE=Warhol;22909232]
uh, he's right lol
that's all you have?
lolnaiveeee
you're a fucking conservative apologist, and you want to talk about naive[/QUOTE]
Oh, so by agreeing with someones statement of "fuck the troops" I can assume you are another one of those types who curses on the people who go out and fight/die for your rights while you sit on your ass playing video games all day?
It's fine to disagree with the war, I don't agree with the war at all and neither do the majority of Americans. I think the iraq war was stupid and a waste of money and lives and should have never happened.
With that said, I have zero respect for stupid "look at me im an anarchist rebel" kids who curse on our troops. Anyone who disrespects the troops can go fuck off. They're not over there to kill brown people, they're over there because they enlisted to defend our country, and our government sent them to a stupid war that never should have happened.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22909498]
Well of course there's been violence, but fuck, look at the modern political destabilisation, and almost ALL of it is linked back to the US
[/QUOTE]
Name one time in the entire history of the middle east when it wasn't mired in ethnic and religious violence and/or ruled by a despot/autocrat.
Name [B]one.[/B]
[QUOTE=GunFox;22909812]Okay what would you have done?
You seem to have the answer for everything, kiddo, so go on. Now is your time. How would you handle Iraq?
We're all on the same page that we never should have gone and that staying was an equally poor decision. So now how would you handle the insurgency?[/QUOTE]
Would have not gone into Iraq in the first place.
But if I did, first of all, I would have prepped ORHA at least a few months before the invasion, as opposed to just 20 days. In Post-war Iraq, I would have NOT used fucking Ahmad Chalabi as a god damn source on how to prop up the new government. Martial law, as suggested by the Pentagon, would have been implemented. I would have listened to ORHA's "20 looting targets" report and increased troop levels, when everyone including the Pentagon is asking for it, and used them on the 20 buildings. If Troop levels were impossible to increase, I would use the Iraq conscription forces as police. Bremer's initiative would have been scrapped, burned and Bremer fired. I would listen to General Shinseki's idea of arresting al-Sadr.
you know what, fuck specifics, I would have done the EXACT opposite of everything Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bush etc did.
[editline]12:19AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=tomcat13;22909937]Name one time in the entire history of the middle east when it wasn't mired in ethnic and religious violence and/or ruled by a despot/autocrat.
Name [B]one.[/B][/QUOTE]
Iran, Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Turkey, Qatar, Oman
[editline]12:24AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zeus;22909819]Oh, so by agreeing with someones statement of "fuck the troops" I can assume you are another one of those types who curses on the people who go out and fight/die for your rights while you sit on your ass playing video games all day?[/quote]
I don't see how the US is protecting Ireland... but whatever.
How is an American soldier dying for rights again? Who threatens the freedom of the US? I'm really, really, really fucking curious to know who is a threat to the government stability of the US
[quote]It's fine to disagree with the war, I don't agree with the war at all and neither do the majority of Americans. I think the iraq war was stupid and a waste of money and lives and should have never happened.[/quote]
About 70% of the US were in support of the Invasion of Iraq.
[quote]With that said, I have zero respect for stupid "look at me im an anarchist rebel" kids who curse on our troops.[/quote]
To be fair, I'm a Socialist
[quote]Anyone who disrespects the troops can go fuck off.[/quote]
[url]http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17393.htm[/url] AMERICAN WOMMMMEN
[quote]They're not over there to kill brown people, they're over there because they enlisted to defend our country, and our government sent them to a stupid war that never should have happened.[/QUOTE]
Defend your country Froooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom what now?
pissed off little brown people the US just so happened to piss off?
[QUOTE=Warhol;22910476]you know what, fuck specifics, I would have done the EXACT opposite of everything Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bush etc did.[/QUOTE]
I hate it when people throw this statement around. All it shows is that you don't have a clue what you would've done, you just know they did it wrong.
[QUOTE=Morcam;22912335]I hate it when people throw this statement around. All it shows is that you don't have a clue what you would've done, you just know they did it wrong.[/QUOTE]
dude, you didn't see what I posted ABOVE that did you
you fucking prat, look up next time
All you had to do was fucking increase troop levels, prep ORHA and negate Chalabi, FFS, this is not fucking brain surgery.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22912684]dude, you didn't see what I posted ABOVE that did you
you fucking prat, look up next time
All you had to do was fucking increase troop levels, prep ORHA and negate Chalabi, FFS, this is not fucking brain surgery.[/QUOTE]
You have a decent point but you could present it in a less douchy way.
[QUOTE=NuclearAnnhilation;22913210]You have a decent point but you could present it in a less douchy way.[/QUOTE]
No, fuck that shit, I made a god damn fucking logical plan with beginning details, and this fucking kid is too illiterate to read it, so he jumps to another point and makes some douche bag remark.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22910476]Would have not gone into Iraq in the first place.
But if I did, first of all, I would have prepped ORHA at least a few months before the invasion, as opposed to just 20 days. In Post-war Iraq, I would have NOT used fucking Ahmad Chalabi as a god damn source on how to prop up the new government. Martial law, as suggested by the Pentagon, would have been implemented. I would have listened to ORHA's "20 looting targets" report and increased troop levels, when everyone including the Pentagon is asking for it, and used them on the 20 buildings. If Troop levels were impossible to increase, I would use the Iraq conscription forces as police. Bremer's initiative would have been scrapped, burned and Bremer fired. I would listen to General Shinseki's idea of arresting al-Sadr.
you know what, fuck specifics, I would have done the EXACT opposite of everything Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bush etc did.
[/QUOTE]
Basically this just looks like a list of "hindsight is 20/20".
Hell, even that may not be the case. When you use conscripts as police, things rarely end well. Looting is much better than a massacre brought on by untrained soldiers. Those sorts of incidents can leave permanent scars on public image that, as an occupier, are unlikely to heal.
Wow, it's like kicking a dead horse.
[QUOTE=GunFox;22913592]Basically this just looks like a list of "hindsight is 20/20".[/quote]
You just fucking asked me what different I would have done.
[quote]Hell, even that may not be the case. When you use conscripts as police, things rarely end well.[/quote]
Fucking officers from all 4 branches of the Iraqi military went to ORHA and told Colonel Paul Hughes and General Garner they had well trained men willing to guard checkpoints to make up for missing US soldiers, not only that, but to follow ORHA guidelines. And Rumsfeld fucking ignored it. Not because of his opinion on them. No, because Rumsfeld said they had enough fucking troops.
[quote] Looting is much better than a massacre brought on by untrained soldiers.[/quote]
uhh, they are trained. Now my suggestion of using the Iraqi's was a last resort, everyone said, including the pentagon, troop levels were FAR to low. One of fucking Bush's advisors next to Colin Powell also defended using the Iraqi military.
[quote] Those sorts of incidents can leave permanent scars on public image that, as an occupier, are unlikely to heal.[/QUOTE]
as opposed to what they fucking are doing NOW? You think if Bush Administration listened to... frankly everyone besides the cabinet, things would be worse or just as bad? You are going to sit there and fucking defend the Bush Administrations lack of planning and incompetence?
are you fucking insane?
[editline]04:02AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=the_KMM;22788840]hurr we went over to Iraq/Afghanistan to kill people of another race
no other reason
[B]oh wait we also went there to steal oil which we haven't received a drop of either[/B][/QUOTE]
and the earth is flaaaaaat
[editline]04:08AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=NuclearAnnhilation;22789055] We were occupying the middle easy pre 9/11?[/QUOTE]
yeah, you were, actually
[QUOTE=Warhol;22910476]
About 70% of the US were in support of the Invasion of Iraq.
[/quote]
I was talking about the present day. Back then the support was high because the government was lying to the public about iraq having WMDs. Also 9/11 was still fresh in people's minds and the public wanted revenge on the middle east for the 3,000 people murdered in the attacks.
[quote]
To be fair, I'm a Socialist
[/QUOTE]
I was referring to the other guy.
As for the other crap I won't bother typing out a response since you seem to have a bias against US soldiers (by taking one atrocity and labeling the entire US military with it).
[QUOTE=Warhol;22913943]You just fucking asked me what different I would have done.[/quote]
Ah, my mistake. I should have made it clear that no forward knowledge would be available to you. You'd effectively be blind to the events as they unfolded as reality.
Anyone can look back and say left when right was chosen and found to be incorrect.
[quote]Fucking officers from all 4 branches of the Iraqi military went to ORHA and told Colonel Paul Hughes and General Garner they had well trained men willing to guard checkpoints to make up for missing US soldiers, not only that, but to follow ORHA guidelines. And Rumsfeld fucking ignored it. Not because of his opinion on them. No, because Rumsfeld said they had enough fucking troops.[/quote]
Combined arms missions take massive amounts of cooperation and planning. Each side has different ways of doing everything. Different radio codes (NATO standardization helps here), different ways of determining friendlies, different training across the board.
Even today US and UK forces, who have worked together for some time now, make mistakes due to differences in training and forgetting the protocols of the other side.
For the most part it wouldn't be a big deal, but you make a mistake when requesting air support and it's all over.
[quote]uhh, they are trained. Now my suggestion of using the Iraqi's was a last resort, everyone said, including the pentagon, troop levels were FAR to low. One of fucking Bush's advisors next to Colin Powell also defended using the Iraqi military. [/quote]
They are not trained to be riot police. It takes training to deal with riots and contain looters without gunning them down.
Frankly I doubt even the coalition forces were properly trained, though as professional soldiers they at least have discipline that comes from that to fall back on.
[quote]as opposed to what they fucking are doing NOW? You think if Bush Administration listened to... frankly everyone besides the cabinet, things would be worse or just as bad? You are going to sit there and fucking defend the Bush Administrations lack of planning and incompetence?
are you fucking insane?[/QUOTE]
You seem to frequently mistake me defending things when I am simply pointing out holes in an argument. I do not like things as they are now. I believe countless mistakes were made. Again, I never wanted anything to do with the country. Iraq was pretty much a massive war crime carried out by the Bush administration and I would like to see him and his cronies stand trial for it.
But I am not going to go on and on about shit that has already happened unless I have an idea of how to actually fix it. A workable solution that could actually conceivably be pursued by the nations involved.
[QUOTE=Vocal Massacre;22789526]ESSAY[/QUOTE]
You sight the INC, led by Chalabi, Literally EVER single US intelligence department denounces them. The Military Intelligence Agency has found MANY fraudulent sources from them. Using the INC as a source is fucking horrid. That crime statistic you cited is pretty contradictory to the Baghdad Morgue and the remaining ministry of justice. Chalabi was the Oil Minister and was in bed with Bush.
Seriously, what WORSE sources can you find?
[QUOTE=Zeus;22909819]Oh, so by agreeing with someones statement of "fuck the troops" I can assume you are another one of those types who curses on the people who go out and fight/die for your rights while you sit on your ass playing video games all day?
It's fine to disagree with the war, I don't agree with the war at all and neither do the majority of Americans. I think the iraq war was stupid and a waste of money and lives and should have never happened.
With that said, I have zero respect for stupid "look at me im an anarchist rebel" kids who curse on our troops. Anyone who disrespects the troops can go fuck off. They're not over there to kill brown people, they're over there because they enlisted to defend our country, and our government sent them to a stupid war that never should have happened.[/QUOTE]
I saw Warhol had said the same thing I'm about to say, but I'll state it again.
What are the troops defending us from? How does a Saddam-less Iraq and an even more screwed up Afghanistan help anyone? It hasn't hasn't stopped these supposed terrorist attacks at all. There have been a few failed attempts since 9/11. So how does either war even tie in to any of this?
And as for the troops, if they were actually defending America then I'd support them. But they're not, and people are still enlisting in droves to "defend" America by going to Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't really believe they're going to Iraq to kill people, I think they believe they're defending America, but the fact is that they're not. It's saddening that the troops have been so indoctrinated that they can't see what's really going on.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22912684]dude, you didn't see what I posted ABOVE that did you
you fucking prat, look up next time
All you had to do was fucking increase troop levels, prep ORHA and negate Chalabi, FFS, this is not fucking brain surgery.[/QUOTE]
You're right, it's not brain surgery. It's the invasion of a country of 438,317 sq km, with a population of 29 million people, ruled by a dictator, in the most conflicted area in the world, multiple dedicated terrorist organizations, and deep-rooted racial conflict.
You pointed out a couple mistakes that the Bush administration made, that you clearly would have predicted with your magical foresight ability.
I was also trying to make GunFox's general point of "Hindsight is 20/20," but I think that one went over your head.
[QUOTE=Aide;22775454]The middle east is shit hole(In my eyes). [/QUOTE]
Why is that? Because they have obvious differences like race, language, religion, dietary habits, fashion? You're a brainwashed idiot.
[QUOTE=GunFox;22914382]Ah, my mistake. I should have made it clear that no forward knowledge would be available to you. You'd effectively be blind to the events as they unfolded as reality.
Anyone can look back and say left when right was chosen and found to be incorrect.[/quote]
UH, ok, AFTER the fucking pentagon, including Shinseki and my personal military adviser, Richard Armitage, tells me to raise troop levels, I would fucking raise troop levels. When ORHA, the acting provisional military authority tells me to raise troop levels
I would fucking raise troop levels.
[quote]Combined arms missions take massive amounts of cooperation and planning.[/quote]
The only fucking people who weren't cooperating was the fucking White house.
[quote] Each side has different ways of doing everything. Different radio codes (NATO standardization helps here), different ways of determining friendlies, different training across the board. [/quote]
Yeah, the Bush way is to ignore everything.
[quote]Even today US and UK forces, who have worked together for some time now, make mistakes due to differences in training and forgetting the protocols of the other side. [/quote]
uhhhhhhhhhhhhh, this is relevant how?
[quote]For the most part it wouldn't be a big deal, but you make a mistake when requesting air support and it's all over. [/quote]
you're just babbling. And really, I'd take the word of Shinteki, Armitage, Powell, Odierno, Hughes, Garner over yours tbh
and gunfox, for the love of god, every fucking thread, you're always the "military expert", you're not... you're just fucking not, I doubt you've ever BEEN in the fucking military. I'm using sources from COUNTLESS people, most of whom have YEARS of experience.
[quote]They are not trained to be riot police. It takes training to deal with riots and contain looters without gunning them down.[/quote]
The Iraqi national archives were fucked up when the greenzone finally sent armoured cars to the archives. They literally just sat outside the building and the looters were scared off. You didn't need to train them for riot control. you just need them to sit around and defend the building. and they could have curbed the looting BEFORE hand, they could have fucking curbed the riots. the Iraqi military WAS experienced in dealing with riots regardless, they were the national military. The US soldiers sat at their checkpoints and did nothing, some even encouraged looting. If the white house sent in more troop levels and if Rumsfeld told them to listen to ORHA, then each of the 20 buildings would have been protected.
the Iraqi soldiers were well disciplined, this shit is not my fucking words, it's that of ORHA. They had direct contact with the troops and the commanding officers, they were fucking willing to help.
[quote]Frankly I doubt even the coalition forces were properly trained, though as professional soldiers they at least have discipline that comes from that to fall back on.[/quote]
The military commanders know how to conduct martial law, they would provide the orders. ORHA was led by people who have conducted Martial law before. It's about listening to other branches.
[quote]You seem to frequently mistake me defending things when I am simply pointing out holes in an argument. I do not like things as they are now. I believe countless mistakes were made. Again, I never wanted anything to do with the country. Iraq was pretty much a massive war crime carried out by the Bush administration and I would like to see him and his cronies stand trial for it. [/quote]
I agree with you, but I assure you, your "loop holes" are not really that big. I mean, how much more simpler can you get then "increase troop levels"
[quote]But I am not going to go on and on about shit that has already happened unless I have an idea of how to actually fix it. A workable solution that could actually conceivably be pursued by the nations involved.[/QUOTE]
Right now, I don't fucking know HOW to fix it. The Bush Administration caused this, and right now only justice can be served, he should fucking hang... No, Bremer first, he caused this shit. Bremer has killed about 10 times more people then Saddam Hussien.
[editline]04:39AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Morcam;22914604]You're right, it's not brain surgery. It's the invasion of a country of 438,317 sq km, with a population of 29 million people, ruled by a dictator, in the most conflicted area in the world, multiple dedicated terrorist organizations, and deep-rooted racial conflict.[/quote]
All this shit stemmed from Bremer's initiative and firing Shinteki.
[quote]You pointed out a couple mistakes that the Bush administration made, that you clearly would have predicted with your magical foresight ability.[/quote]
Ok, so when me, currently in the fucking mix here, am being told to either
A: do not do something, it WILL have bad results
B: do this or it will escalate
and I do it, it's not predicting the future, it's logic. It's not foresight, it's advisory. Get that through your fucking head you prat
[quote]I was also trying to make GunFox's general point of "Hindsight is 20/20," but I think that one went over your head.[/QUOTE]
hurrr, cuz he TOTALLY didn't fucking ask me what i would have done amirite?
[editline]04:43AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zeus;22914351]I was talking about the present day. Back then the support was high because the government was lying to the public about iraq having WMDs. Also 9/11 was still fresh in people's minds and the public wanted revenge on the middle east for the 3,000 people murdered in the attacks.[/quote]
well the media and government p. much ignored everything contrary to going into Iraq.
[quote]I was referring to the other guy.
As for the other crap I won't bother typing out a response since you seem to have a bias against US soldiers (by taking one atrocity and labeling the entire US military with it).[/QUOTE]
you never answered what the us is defending itself from
[editline]04:44AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=PhortyTwo;22790002]The only weird thing about this to me is:
We freed them, and now they're attacking us. I completely agree with the OP that the "dethroning a dictator" shit was bullshit. The reason we went in there was to get answers, no matter what the media says about an oil war.
Besides, even if it was an oil war, both sides would profit from it.[/QUOTE]
uh... it IS an oil war.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22914742]All this shit stemmed from Bremer's initiative and firing Shinteki.
Ok, so when me, currently in the fucking mix here, am being told to either
A: do not do something, it WILL have bad results
B: do this or it will escalate
and I do it, it's not predicting the future, it's logic. It's not foresight, it's advisory. Get that through your fucking head you prat[/QUOTE]
There's this thing about advisory. For every advisor that says one way, there's another that goes the other way. Not to mention the public's revulsion against sending more troops. Look at the 2007 surge and the amazingly negative press towards that.
[QUOTE]hurrr, cuz he TOTALLY didn't fucking ask me what i would have done amirite?[/QUOTE]
This doesn't even begin to make sense.
[QUOTE] uh... it IS an oil war. [/QUOTE]
Yep.
I expect more senseless babbling and pointless insults.
[QUOTE=Morcam;22915145]There's this thing about advisory. For every advisor that says one way, there's another that goes the other way. Not to mention the public's revulsion against sending more troops. Look at the 2007 surge and the amazingly negative press towards that.
This doesn't even begin to make sense.
Yep.
I expect more senseless babbling and pointless insults.[/QUOTE]
This is mid 2003 we're talking about. Rumsfeld's Advisers were all agreeing that they needed more troop levels. This is not a 50/50 thing, it's a fucking 5/95 thing.
[QUOTE=David29;22772038]Except that everything you have talked about only applies in a standard country vs. country war. This is not one of them - this is a civil war. Furthermore, they are being tried as terrorists because they are supporting Al Qaeda. If a person supports a group or organisation in some way, then they are automatically associating themselves with them.
Also, it's British, not Britisher, dammit.[/QUOTE]
1 thing they rarely say they are working for that gruop they just label them as if they were
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;22915488]1 thing they rarely say they are working for that gruop they just label them as if they were[/QUOTE]
I like English, do you is to?
Holy shit this is a orgy of insults screaming and bad english. :froggonk:
[editline]11:23PM[/editline]
On both sides may I ad.
1 thing the country i live in is called a democratic one but why is there no votes for it. if most americans are not for the war we should be able to vote against it and then send are troops home.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;22915557]1 thing the country i live in is called a democratic one but why is there no votes for it. if most americans are not for the war we should be able to vote against it and then send are troops home.[/QUOTE]
What country do you live in? Fucking Ukraine?
[QUOTE=Warhol;22915617]What country do you live in? Fucking Ukraine?[/QUOTE]
no U.S. and we have not had a vote for the war.
Does US stand fore "united Saturn" because you're not speaking English, I can assure you of that
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