All the Slender Ladies: Body Diversity in Video Games - General

Oh for fucks sake. Just let Anita stay under her rock where she belongs. We all know Mei exists in terms of fat chicks in games.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;50997867]it kills me that lara croft has 0 muscle tone yet she can pull off these ridiculous feats of strength all the time like god damn she looks like a generic 16 year old girl yet she can pull herself up from a ledge with 1 arm or get stabbed like 500 times and continue to do the most extreme mountain climbing[/QUOTE] No one in real life can get stabbed 500 times and continue to do extreme mountain climbing. Basically, you have a choice between a 'realistic' character model who looks like the perceived appearance of a regular person or you can design a 'realistic' character model who looks like they can do the insane stunts that nobody can do in real life which leads to the stylized characters like street fighter characters with thighs as thick as elephant trunks or Chris 'My biceps are bigger than my head' Redfield from Resident Evil.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;50997907]i understand the whole getting shot or stabbed during gameplay thing but they make a huge deal out of lara being impaled by rebar at the start of the first remake game and she limps for about a whole 3 seconds and goes back to jumping around like a monkey then aside from that, she really is super strong and has 0 muscle definition at all, like she looks like someone who never works out at all or only ever does cardio[/QUOTE] I addressed what you're saying, read my post again. The choice the developer has is between making a character who looks 'normal' or one that can actually do the things they can do in the game. Both are 'realistic' but one results in complaints that the character doesn't look like they can do the things they do in the game and the other results in complaints that people cannot identify with the character because they don't look like a normal human being. There's no other way of going about it, a morbidly obese person doing double jumps and quadruple cartwheels is just hilarious and cannot be taken seriously at all and a super muscular body-builder type person smashing people's faces in apparently isn't relatable to some people. That's why there's a move away from 'realistic' art styles so that there can be more variety in character designs without causing any kind of ludo narrative dissonance.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;50997907]i understand the whole getting shot or stabbed during gameplay thing but they make a huge deal out of lara being impaled by rebar at the start of the first remake game and she limps for about a whole 3 seconds and goes back to jumping around like a monkey then aside from that, she really is super strong and has 0 muscle definition at all, like she looks like someone who never works out at all or only ever does cardio[/QUOTE] I think Rise of the Tomb Raider improved it to a point; in motion you can kinda see her shoulder and back muscles flexing. [img]http://i.imgur.com/3TlOPqk.jpg[/img] But yeah, she could use more arm definition.

I don't get the whole line of "If a body type isn't equally represented in video games, then society is telling people who look like that that they aren't valuable."

[QUOTE=RichyZ;50997967]you can choose the inbetween where she isnt a bodybuilder but isnt a generic cute girl[/QUOTE] I s'pose you could look for that sweetspot, but the character would never look like they'd be able to do the things they can actually do in the game while still looking perceptively 'normal'. There's also limitations in the technology to consider, subtle muscle movement is harder to rig properly which leads to the large divide between characters who are either extremely muscle-bound or scrawny, hopefully the technological advances like that Dyna video someone posted earlier in the thread will help with that.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;50997983]i think giving the impression that they could in some way is what you want to go for as long as developers at least take the things their characters do in account when designing, even to the smallest degree, it is better than none at all its kinda hard to do this tho in an era where every game protagonist is a 30s male or 20s female human tho i guess[/QUOTE] Would an 80 year old male or a 70 year old female human be more likely to do the things they do in a game?

When she brought up the female characters in Dota 2, I straight away thought of Enchantress and Broodmother, come the fuck on, at least launch the game or read the fucking Heropedia on the website itself...

Let's make a videogame/mod where you play as a fat piece of shit, who dies every 5 seconds, because you can't run away from the enemy.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;50998006]no im talking about how in the early 2000s we had more otherworldy protags who werent human and thus could be designed to fit specific gameplay and story goals look at something like jak and daxter or ratchet and clank[/QUOTE] Oh okay, although I think the same rules of body types and relatability apply to non-human humanoids, those games in particular got away with what they did because the art style was cartoony and not necessarily because the characters were not human. [editline]4th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Mudkipslol;50998012]Let's make a videogame/mod where you play as a fat piece of shit, who dies every 5 seconds, because you can't run away from the enemy.[/QUOTE] You can play Happy Wheels as a fat woman on a mobility scooter, does that count?

[QUOTE=RichyZ;50997983]i think giving the impression that they could in some way is what you want to go for as long as developers at least take the things their characters do in account when designing, even to the smallest degree, it is better than none at all its kinda hard to do this tho in an era where every game protagonist is a 30s male or 20s female human tho i guess[/QUOTE] Well i mean, ideally they'd have to be in their physical prime for suspension of disbelief to work properly considering the context of most games. [editline]4th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=RichyZ;50998006]no im talking about how in the early 2000s we had more otherworldy protags who werent human and thus could be designed to fit specific gameplay and story goals look at something like jak and daxter or ratchet and clank[/QUOTE] Context is important though, a lot of games currently focus on contemporary settings or atleast grounded settings. And its not like games dont exist that have relatively realistic portrayals of how someone would have to look to fit their role in the story/game.

[QUOTE=Zyler;50997975]I s'pose you could look for that sweetspot, but the character would never look like they'd be able to do the things they can actually do in the game while still looking perceptively 'normal'. There's also limitations in the technology to consider, subtle muscle movement is harder to rig properly which leads to the large divide between characters who are either extremely muscle-bound or scrawny, hopefully the technological advances like that Dyna video someone posted earlier in the thread will help with that.[/QUOTE] I see your normality perception and raise you a Faith from Mirror's Edge. [editline]4th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Zyler;50997860]It wouldn't exactly be 'realistic' for a female person to look like Zarya from overwatch anyway, considering that female bodybuilders need to use male hormone replacements to look like that. But who cares about realism anyway? The 'idealistic' female characters in most popular recent non-stylized games (i.e. Tomb Raider, Uncharted, Titanfall, Halo, Call Of Duty) are far closer to what a fit, young, female person typically looks like than your average 'beefy mc'muscle head' male protag, but even then those types of characters tend to be limited to stylized works.[/QUOTE] Maybe Zarya isn't the best example but yeah, you know what I'm getting at.

If you guys hate her so much, why do you give her attention by posting her videos here?

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50998248]I see your normality perception and raise you a Faith from Mirror's Edge.[/QUOTE] Faith is exactly the type of character I was talking about earlier that appears in more 'realistically' styled games [QUOTE=Zyler;50997860]The 'idealistic' female characters in most popular recent non-stylized games (i.e. Tomb Raider, Uncharted, Titanfall, Halo, Call Of Duty) are far closer to what a fit, young, female person typically looks like than your average 'beefy mc'muscle head' male protag, but even then those types of characters tend to be limited to stylized works.[/QUOTE] It helps that the actions taking place in Mirror's Edge aren't totally out of the question for a regular-looking person to perform, so it doesn't cause the same type of ludo narrative dissonance where you're performing quadruple back flips and double jumps while being shot 500 times. Basically, if you're going for a realistic art style you're sort of limited to character designs who look like they can do the things a character can do in the game. When you try to make the character "realistic" in that they look like a regular human being, it can cause dissonance if they're doing something only a superhuman bodybuilder would be able to do.

[QUOTE=bunguer;50997781]Anorexic female characters? Whoa, do give some examples from any popular game because I don't recall ever seeing an anorexic characters (or near) in any game I've played. Also, being huge like Zarya or a 'strongman', simply wouldn't even make any sense in most games context. At times, I think the people that strongly push for unconventional body types are insecure of seeing conventional attractive characters.[/QUOTE] First of all, I never said Anorexic, I said approaching anorexic. Second of all, you want an example of that? Look at any Fighting or MOBA Game ever made, there's going to be at least 3 in there.

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50998269]First of all, I never said Anorexic, I said approaching anorexic. Second of all, you want an example of that? Look at any Fighting or MOBA Game ever made, there's going to be at least 3 in there.[/QUOTE] Examples?

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50998269]First of all, I never said Anorexic, I said approaching anorexic. Second of all, you want an example of that? Look at any Fighting or MOBA Game ever made, there's going to be at least 3 in there.[/QUOTE] Of all the genres you could possibly use as your example, you chose potentially the worst one. Most fighting games have pretty meaty women with big tits, at the very least nowhere near anorexic. [editline]4th September 2016[/editline] Im not sure ive seen any MOBA's with "near-anorexic" women either. Like what do you even mean by that. Give pictures. Examples. Something.

[QUOTE=ThatSwordGuy;50997365]Doesn't the existence of games like Overwatch kind of disprove that, though? I mean, we could definitely go further with it because I love seeing diverse character designs instead of barbie and ken dolls, but we've been seeing improvements.[/QUOTE] overwatch does not have female body diversity, it is not a positive example

[QUOTE=Intermission;50998300]overwatch does not have female body diversity, it is not a positive example[/QUOTE] It has a decent amount of diversity, both in terms of body types as well as other types of diversity.

[QUOTE=Zyler;50998305]It has a decent amount of diversity, both in terms of body types as well as other types of diversity.[/QUOTE] with the males, yeah. women? they're all the same except for zarya. even mei isn't as THICC as she claims to be when you take that coat off.

[QUOTE=Intermission;50998300]overwatch does not have female body diversity, it is not a positive example[/QUOTE] What? I dont even play the game but thats total bullshit. [t]http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/overwatch/images/d/d1/Zarya_portrait.png/revision/latest?cb=20160429041121[/t] [t]http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/3/3b/Mei_portrait.png[/t] [t]http://sapphirenation.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/overwatch-ladies.jpg[/t] While a majority of them fit the slender look more, thats more to do with it being an average common body type. The fact that the above two and the one with power armor kind of prove you wrong. [editline]4th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Intermission;50998318]with the males, yeah. women? they're all the same except for zarya. even mei isn't as THICC as she claims to be when you take that coat off.[/QUOTE] Wrong on that count too, they have noticable differences in body shape. Tracer is overall thinner compared to the others and Widowmaker has a smaller bust in that pic i posted.

Plus Ana who looks like she'd look fairly average if she took all of the military gear off [t]https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/overwatch.gamepedia.com/7/76/Ana.png[/t]

[QUOTE=ThatSwordGuy;50997365]Doesn't the existence of games like Overwatch kind of disprove that, though? I mean, we could definitely go further with it because I love seeing diverse character designs instead of barbie and ken dolls, but we've been seeing improvements.[/QUOTE] It's like nobody even watched the video and started complaining. I'm not one to support Anita but this video was really not that offensive. She pointed out how there were a few instances of games that pushed more variety in female body types and even said Overwatch was should be applauded for it's effort in creating unique types of characters. She also mentioned a couple of other games and only suggested that those are outliers rather than the norm.

[QUOTE=Intermission;50998318]with the males, yeah. women? they're all the same except for zarya. even mei isn't as THICC as she claims to be when you take that coat off.[/QUOTE] Of the 10 human male heroes only 3 (Reinhardt (Cartoonishly buff), Roadhog (Cartoonishly fat), and Torb (Dwarf)) are not fit men with "handsome" faces (Besides the 2 that are wearing masks). 3 out of the 9 female heroes only 3 (Zarya (Buff), Mei (slightly larger), and Ana (Old lady)) are not slender women with "pretty" faces. I would say that's pretty even amongst the cast.

[QUOTE=omarfr;50998339]It's like nobody even watched the video and started complaining. I'm not one to support Anita but this video was really not that offensive. She pointed out how there were a few instances of games that pushed more variety in female body types and even said Overwatch was should be applauded for it's effort in creating unique types of characters. She also mentioned a couple of other games and only suggested that those are outliers rather than the norm.[/QUOTE] Well they're the most popular games on the market right now, so I'd consider them the norm. I don't have an agenda to push though. Right now, video games are probably the most diverse of any western media industry based around a visual medium. Most Hollywood films either star a Sandra Bullock clone or a Scarlet Johanson clone, television is slightly better and comics are behind video games because they can't seem to break away from the standard superman/batman/wonder-woman archetypes without going full ham into terribly written over-compensation that loses readers. Video Games are the only medium pushing for positive diverse representation that actually has mainstream traction and appeal right now.

[QUOTE=Zyler;50998369]Well they're the most popular games on the market right now, so I'd consider them the norm. I don't have an agenda to push though. Right now, video games are probably the most diverse of any western media industry based around a visual medium. Most Hollywood films either star a Sandra Bullock clone or a Scarlet Johanson clone, television is slightly better and comics are behind video games because they can't seem to break away from the standard superman/batman/wonder-woman archetypes without going full ham into terribly written over-compensation that loses readers. Video Games are the only medium pushing for positive diverse representation that actually has mainstream traction and appeal right now.[/QUOTE] And its not like you cant find good, famous examples of non standard women in games. The Boss is a great example. The most or second most important character in all of the Metal Gear mythos to boot.

I should clarify that I'm not saying that there is no push for more mainstream diversity in other visual mediums in the west, but the video game industry is the only place where it has actually been somewhat successful.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;50998292]Of all the genres you could possibly use as your example, you chose potentially the worst one. Most fighting games have pretty meaty women with big tits, at the very least nowhere near anorexic.[/quote] I have three words for you: Dead or Alive [quote][editline]4th September 2016[/editline] Im not sure ive seen any MOBA's with "near-anorexic" women either. Like what do you even mean by that. Give pictures. Examples. Something.[/QUOTE] I also have another three words here: League of Legends.

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50998447]I have three words for you: Dead or Alive[/QUOTE] Congratulations you brought up one series notorious for its ludicrous amounts of sex appeal, now name 10 others that dont feature some kind of variation in its female line up and i'll actually be impressed. Actually, no wait, you're still wrong. [t]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/EpD8Xup6eqg/hqdefault.jpg[/t] [editline]4th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=TornadoAP;50998447] I also have another three words here: League of Legends.[/QUOTE] Im looking at pictures of them right now and you have no fucking clue what an anorexic person looks like.

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50998447]I have three words for you: Dead or Alive I also have another three words here: League of Legends.[/QUOTE] So two games out of potentially dozens? What about Street Fighter, Tekken, Skull Girls, Mortal Kombat? Or Dota, Smite or HotS?