[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;32629974]If we are going to allow prisoners to vote, we would have to have an elected representative from each of the prisons due to the populations some have. The views of this said Prison-Representative would be so narrow due to the fact that his constituents are so out-of-contact with what is going on in the outside world, having the prisoners represented in Congress wouldn't be necessary since many of the prisoners would have been isolated from mainstream society.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but the argument that allowing prisoners the ability to vote would require a prison state is just a bit... I mean really, I wish I could critique the logic you are using to make that statement or the logic one might even use to use to make that statement. You can expand on it if you want.
Also, you're conclusion doesn't follow and it is also faulty in that it is claiming particular knowledge is a requirement for voting.
It's not in a sense of having Prison-Senators. I was thinking more along the lines of Representative, as in House of Reps.
I mean how else are you to convey the interests of convicts to a federal level?
No, fuck them, they're pieces of shit, scum of society.
They don't deserve shit unless they prove they can be trusted with the privilage.
The fact that they did something to end up being punished in such a way means they can't be trusted.
[editline]4th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;32631434]It's not in a sense of having Prison-Senators. I was thinking more along the lines of Representative, as in House of Reps.
I mean how else are you to convey the interests of convicts to a federal level?[/QUOTE]
Who the actual fuck cares what they want? They're to be treated barely as humans, not animals, but not citizens. They don't deserve to be treated with respect other than the basic respect you receive for simply being human. Their unhonourable lack of self control and mental ability to distinguish right and wrong deserves no respect.
[QUOTE=Pepin;32629634]What would it look like if voters were trying to elect the wrong people?[/QUOTE]
Generally in political discourse, voting for the "wrong people" is voting for someone that you aren't voting for.
[editline]4th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=The one that is;32631536]No, fuck them, they're pieces of shit, scum of society.
They don't deserve shit unless they prove they can be trusted with the privilage.
The fact that they did something to end up being punished in such a way means they can't be trusted.
[editline]4th October 2011[/editline]
Who the actual fuck cares what they want? They're to be treated barely as humans, not animals, but not citizens. They don't deserve to be treated with respect other than the basic respect you receive for simply being human. Their unhonourable lack of self control and mental ability to distinguish right and wrong deserves no respect.[/QUOTE]
These kind of posts really, really anger me and make me want to call you names but this is the friendly forum so I'll be friendly.
Tell me, why do you believe that criminals are subhuman?
[QUOTE=The one that is;32631536]No, fuck them, they're pieces of shit, scum of society.
They don't deserve shit unless they prove they can be trusted with the privilage.
The fact that they did something to end up being punished in such a way means they can't be trusted.
[editline]4th October 2011[/editline]
Who the actual fuck cares what they want? They're to be treated [b]barely as humans, not animals, but not citizens[/b]. They don't deserve to be treated with respect other than the basic respect you receive for simply being human. Their unhonourable lack of self control and mental ability to distinguish right and wrong deserves no respect.[/QUOTE]
'barely as humans but not as animals'
So...sub-human. Would you like to work at Auschwitz? I'm sure they have a position that requires your views.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;32631560]Tell me, why do you believe that criminals are subhuman?[/QUOTE]
I never said sub-human.
They are still human, they deserve the right to human needs and basic rights, they DON'T deserve the rights that citizens get.
Read the constitution and such a bit, that pretty much tells you what citizens get as opposed to human rights.
I personaly classify human rights and needs into:
Food
Shelter
Water
human interaction
mental stimulation (books, games, imagination, art supplies, ect...)
Citizen rights include:
firearms
voting
1st amendment stuff (press, speech, assembly, religon, that stuff)
and other such things that are more privilages than rights.
Upon release you get your citizen rights back (excluding guns though as a felon of course) becuase you've shown that you are hopefully more responsible and can be trusted with them.
Voting is an important part of society, that determines part of the presidential determination. With that being said, I do not believe they should have the ability to vote. Why? Because have done something to be in prison (sans innocent people), so why should they have the right to vote when they are residing on tax payer dollars. Now, again, I'll present my final view. Going back, voting is an integral part of the political system, thus they should be able to because this is just another concept ex-convicts need to get acclimated to. The better we can get the acclimated to society outside of prison, the easier it will be for them to integrate into society and be a working part.
Eh?
[QUOTE=psp401.com;32632497]Voting is an important part of society, that determines part of the presidential determination. With that being said, I do not believe they should have the ability to vote. Why? Because have done something to be in prison (sans innocent people), so why should they have the right to vote when they are residing on tax payer dollars.[/QUOTE]
That's an incredibly weak argument considering more people than prisoners "live off of" tax dollars. Are people on Welfare or Social Security not allowed to vote? Are state employees not allowed to vote because their income comes from government money?
[QUOTE=psp401.com;32632497]Voting is an important part of society that determines part of the presidential determination.[/quote]
I can stop you right there. It's not apart of being in society. Voting in not a societal right. This idea makes no sense. To quote myself from earlier.
[quote=Pepin]I think the reasoning most people have is.
To vote you must belong to society
Prisoners don't belong to society
Prisoners shouldn't be allowed to vote
The issue is with the first premise is citizenship is typically required to vote. Even if the first premise were true, through what mean would government have to verify that a citizen did belong to society? The likely answer would be citizenship. If the reasoning is made more correct.
To vote you must be a citizen
Prisoners aren't citizens
Prisoners shouldn't be allowed to vote
It clearly does not make any sense unless you for some reason assume that getting sent to prison is the same as being deported.[/quote]
Really every argument that argues societal rights is nonsensical, especially since they are essentially arguing citizenship in the crux of it.
[QUOTE=psp401.com;32632497]Because have done something to be in prison (sans innocent people),[/quote]
To quote myself again
[quote=Pepin]It's like saying I'm going to take your pants because you punched me in your the face. What does assault have to do with taking my pants? It is just as absurd.[/quote]
The implication that voting rights be taking away be taking away due away to some unrelated crime is irrational.
[QUOTE=psp401.com;32632497]so why should they have the right to vote when they are residing on tax payer dollars.[/quote]
I've already addressed this a few posts above. I can address it in so many different ways, but really, this is the easiest.
[quote=Pepin]Imagine if there was a Federal law requiring all people in Maine to enter a building. They all do being because they abide by the law, and the building door is shut and locked. There are no means for making a living in this building as this is part of the intention of the building, but even if there were, they wouldn't be able to transfer them outside the building. The people are cared for or course, but have no way of getting out, and escaping is illegal. The people from other states then begin to make the argument that since the people of Maine cannot pay taxes to the Federal government, that Maine should not be entitled to any vote.[/quote]
Megafanx13 also brings up a good point and really opens up the full extent of the logic to some bad scrutiny.
[QUOTE=psp401.com;32632497]Now, again, I'll present my final view. Going back, voting is an integral part of the political system, thus they should be able to because this is just another concept ex-convicts need to get acclimated to. The better we can get the acclimated to society outside of prison, the easier it will be for them to integrate into society and be a working part.[/quote]
I don't really understand, you're in favor, though you weren't. It sounds like here you're offering the "they need it to better integrate with society argument" which is a very weak argument as I've gone over in previous posts, primarily because it only appeals to people who believe prison is for rehab.
[QUOTE=The one that is;32631702]I never said sub-human.
They are still human, they deserve the right to human needs and basic rights, they DON'T deserve the rights that citizens get.
Read the constitution and such a bit, that pretty much tells you what citizens get as opposed to human rights.
I personaly classify human rights and needs into:
Food
Shelter
Water
human interaction
mental stimulation (books, games, imagination, art supplies, ect...)
Citizen rights include:
firearms
voting
1st amendment stuff (press, speech, assembly, religon, that stuff)
and other such things that are more privilages than rights.
Upon release you get your citizen rights back (excluding guns though as a felon of course) becuase you've shown that you are hopefully more responsible and can be trusted with them.[/QUOTE]
Committing a crime doesn't revoke citizenship, so your argument has no legal leg to stand on whatsoever.
I've read the subsequent posts and you've convinced me that they should be allowed to vote. Thanks for enlightening me!
[QUOTE=catface;32634386]I've read the subsequent posts and you've convinced me that they should be allowed to vote. Thanks for enlightening me![/QUOTE]
The first time anyone has ever changed their views because of arguments.
No seriously, I thought this would never happen. Thank you for keeping an open mind.
[QUOTE=Darth_GW7;32627896]A country is not like a game where you get kicked out for "Breaking the rules". By that logic you might as well just ship them off to Australia like oldene victoriane timese.
If someone is in jail, they're still a citizen of the country, they're still affected by the laws and decisions made by politics. They should have a say in it because they and/or people they care about will be affected by it.[/QUOTE]
Why must we "by that logic" ship people off to Australia?
We put them in jail because they are a danger to others, the public, society in general. Australia is full enough anyway :P
It's the same argument with the death penalty. People always overlook society and argue from a humanist sort of standpoint; saying "they are humans too, they deserve better treatment".
To me, as unpopular as it is, if you are in jail you did something wrong, deal with it. You don't deserve to vote in the society YOU CHOSE to fuck by murdering someone, stealing cars, robbing houses and so on.
You get your basic rights, that's enough. You get your leisure, food, warmth, visits, exercise, and so on. But asking for the vote aswell is crazy. Like CabooseRvB said; you'd eventually have such a large prisoner demographic that there would be MP's and the US equivelants in Congress elected purely on prisoner votes. It's madness, why would you want to give someone who chose to deliberately disobey the society's laws, the right to then affect that society in a way they see fit by voting?
It's so alien to me.
Your civic rights are null and void when you demonstrate your lack of participation in society through murder, rape, robbery and so on.
[QUOTE=cis.joshb;32634619]The first time anyone has ever changed their views because of arguments.
No seriously, I thought this would never happen. Thank you for keeping an open mind.[/QUOTE]
I think a closed mind will get you nowhere in life (: Thanks for noticing!
[QUOTE=Benf199105;32636639]Why must we "by that logic" ship people off to Australia?
We put them in jail because they are a danger to others, the public, society in general. Australia is full enough anyway :P
It's the same argument with the death penalty. People always overlook society and argue from a humanist sort of standpoint; saying "they are humans too, they deserve better treatment".
To me, as unpopular as it is, if you are in jail you did something wrong, deal with it. You don't deserve to vote in the society YOU CHOSE to fuck by murdering someone, stealing cars, robbing houses and so on.
You get your basic rights, that's enough. You get your leisure, food, warmth, visits, exercise, and so on. But asking for the vote aswell is crazy. Like CabooseRvB said; you'd eventually have such a large prisoner demographic that there would be MP's and the US equivelants in Congress elected purely on prisoner votes. It's madness, why would you want to give someone who chose to deliberately disobey the society's laws, the right to then affect that society in a way they see fit by voting?
It's so alien to me.
Your civic rights are null and void when you demonstrate your lack of participation in society through murder, rape, robbery and so on.[/QUOTE]
Just because you murder or steal doesn't mean you don't want to participate in society. Hell, society has nothing to do with it, because people commit crimes for personal reasons, rather than just to fuck society over.
"If you're in jail, you did something wrong, deal with it"
That doesn't mean that you can't ask for more rights while you're in prison. I mean, you could just starve them, freeze them, lock them in a tiny cell and tell them "You did something wrong, deal with it", but would that be right? No.
Whether or not they did something wrong is irrelevant. They should still have a say in the workings of society, because they are still a part of society.
Being able to vote should be a basic right because in a democracy everyone capable of making a decision should be allowed to have a say in how the country should be run, because they are all affected by it. In my opinion, voting should be a fundamental human right, because democracy is an integral part of civilisation itself.
And I re-iterate: Committing a crime does not mean that you do not want to be a part of society; it means that you think you were right in committing the crime, despite what society tells us we can or can't do. It doesn't show that you want to completely uproot the whole of society itself.
Serial rapists and mass murders don't do it because they don't want to participate in society? Right they do it because they want to participate in harming it. If you rape and murder 20 orphaned children do you think you deserve the right to vote in the next presidential election? No, because just like how you wanted to fuck over society before you want to fuck them over now and would probably elect the worst canidate.
Also society tells us participants that rape and murder are obviously wrong and shouldn't happen, if you go and commit those acts you basicly are saying that you DON'T want to be in this society where you can't rape and murder.
[QUOTE=The one that is;32652006]Serial rapists and mass murders don't do it because they don't want to participate in society? Right they do it because they want to participate in harming it. If you rape and murder 20 orphaned children do you think you deserve the right to vote in the next presidential election? No, because just like how you wanted to fuck over society before you want to fuck them over now and would probably elect the worst canidate.
Also society tells us participants that rape and murder are obviously wrong and shouldn't happen, if you go and commit those acts you basicly are saying that you DON'T want to be in this society where you can't rape and murder.[/QUOTE]
So you are saying that people rape and kill because they're trying to bring down society? Any proof of this?
In addition, do you have any evidence or argument as to why rapists and murderers are apparently all social inovators who wish society was hellmoo or something?
By your logic, bank robbers all rob banks because they think it... ought.. to be... legal? to [b]rob[/b] banks...? Something doesn't sound quite right about that...
[QUOTE=The one that is;32652006]Serial rapists and mass murders don't do it because they don't want to participate in society? Right they do it because they want to participate in harming it. If you rape and murder 20 orphaned children do you think you deserve the right to vote in the next presidential election?[/QUOTE]
I'm afraid this isn't the "should the worst criminals of all time have the right to vote?" thread. Even if they were allowed to vote, do you honestly think that there are enough of them who could vote for a candidate who "supports" them (as if one could even exist) for it to be a problem?
[QUOTE=The one that is;32652006]If you rape and murder 20 orphaned children do you think you deserve the right to vote in the next presidential election?[/QUOTE]
If you rob a bank, do you deserve a car? If a murder a puppy, do you deserve a car? If you commit fraud, do you deserve a car? If get caught for possession, do you deserve a car? If you rape a duck, do you deserve a car? If you don't understand, do you deserve a vote?
[QUOTE=The one that is;32652006]Serial rapists and mass murders don't do it because they don't want to participate in society? Right they do it because they want to participate in harming it.[b] If you rape and murder 20 orphaned children do you think you deserve the right to vote in the next presidential election?[/b] No, because just like how you wanted to fuck over society before you want to fuck them over now and would probably elect the worst canidate.
Also society tells us participants that rape and murder are obviously wrong and shouldn't happen, if you go and commit those acts you basicly are saying that you DON'T want to be in this society where you can't rape and murder.[/QUOTE]
You're implying that most of these crimes are premeditated instead of spur-of-the-moment and that's simply not the case.
And to answer the bold bit, yes.
Didn't bother to read through all 5 pages but I don't think prisoners should. I'm not sure how things work in prison but I don't want a bunch of criminals who are not politically aware to be able to vote. They are being punished for a reason I guess you can say and really aren't apart of society. Of course, after prison sure but while they are in, no.
[QUOTE=Soldier32;32660083]They are being punished for a reason I guess you can say and really aren't apart of society.[/QUOTE]
This mentality that prison should revolve around punishment rather than mental help is the reason our prison system is incredibly awful and we have prisoners killing other prisoners.
[QUOTE=Soldier32;32660083]Didn't bother to read through all 5 pages but I don't think prisoners should. I'm not sure how things work in prison but I don't want a bunch of criminals who are not politically aware to be able to vote. They are being punished for a reason I guess you can say and really aren't apart of society. Of course, after prison sure but while they are in, no.[/QUOTE]
Most people who vote aren't politically aware.
And you get the news in prison so I don't see what would make them less politically aware than anyone else.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;32660518]Most people who vote aren't politically aware.
And you get the news in prison so I don't see what would make them less politically aware than anyone else.[/QUOTE]
That is true and I wasn't sure if they do but if they do then sure.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
