[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;34457013]That's because they all followed in Stalin's footsteps, so of course they became like Russia. And even then, communism has only occurred a few times. That's like saying all republics become dictatorships because the Roman republic did.[/QUOTE]
Although I am generally a pretty optimistic person compared to others on this board, I'd say communism is far too optimistic about human nature. There is always going to be at least one terrible person, and in a communist society one evil man could destroy the entire system. That's why it's never really worked all too well.
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;34457345]Although I am generally a pretty optimistic person compared to others on this board, I'd say communism is far too optimistic about human nature. There is always going to be at least one terrible person, and in a communist society one evil man could destroy the entire system. That's why it's never really worked all too well.[/QUOTE]
If you have a pessimistic view of human nature then obviously you aren't going to believe that communism can work.
Interestingly, Marxists believe that humans are born neither good nor evil. Instead they believe that society makes a person's nature not nature.
A capitalist society promotes being greedy and crime. Since a young age we are told that everyone surrounding us is greedy and will screw us over to make more money. What do we do? We become greedy too to 'prevent' other people from screwing us over.
Capitalism promotes crime as well. The reason most criminals (excluding the mentally handicapped) commit crimes is to gain economic resources. Most drug users steal to fund their next fix. Most muggers mug people for their new consumer phone or money. If there was no incentive why would people commit crime? Motive is a key part in any crime.
Since Communism has not been implemented we cannot be sure as to what type of people a Communist society would produce.
If you were born up into a society where everyone mutually helped each other and you had everything to fulfill your needs why would you grow up greedy?
This is a simplification but I think you get the gist. What do you guys think? Is it a Capitalist society that makes us greedy?
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;34457345]Although I am generally a pretty optimistic person compared to others on this board, I'd say communism is far too optimistic about human nature. There is always going to be at least one terrible person, and in a communist society one evil man could destroy the entire system. That's why it's never really worked all too well.[/QUOTE]
what on earth does communism have to do with human nature?
it's obvious that you have not read the Manifesto by Marx where he puts a light out on the human nature argument.
he asserts that the concept of human nature is an utterly man-made one. a human adapts to their condition which includes the economical conditions. if human nature overruled condition then we wouldn't see crime happen less in countries where crime isn't needed to survive.
real communism is a fairy tale. meanwhile we can look at signapore and hong kong and they thrive on lassiez-faire capitalism. ideally, anarchy would be the best solution. free markets would naturally thrive in that environment and there would be no state to fuck it up.
on topic though, the audacity of your question should be enough to clue you in that it cannot be answered in a simple nature.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34468501]what on earth does communism have to do with human nature?
it's obvious that you have not read the Manifesto by Marx where he puts a light out on the human nature argument.
he asserts that the concept of human nature is an utterly man-made one. a human adapts to their condition which includes the economical conditions. if human nature overruled condition then we wouldn't see crime happen less in countries where crime isn't needed to survive.[/QUOTE]
You are correct, I have not read Marx's manifesto. But I do believe that a certain amount of crime and evil will always be prevelant, as there are always going to be sociopaths and people with a general lack of empathy, as well as people that do evil compulsively without a motive. I'd say that while Marx's claim that we are all blank slates upon birth is not completely unfounded, it's not entirely true either.
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;34468758]But I do believe that a certain amount of crime and evil will always be prevelant, as there are always going to be sociopaths and people with a general lack of empathy, as well as people that do evil compulsively without a motive.[/QUOTE]
how does that negate the concept of a "classless, moneyless, stateless and revolutionary socialist society structured upon common ownership of the means of production?"
[QUOTE=thisispain;34468836]how does that negate the concept of a "classless, moneyless, stateless and revolutionary socialist society structured upon common ownership of the means of production?"[/QUOTE]
Because in communism everyone has to cooperate fully for utopia to be achieved, and that doesn't work if there are people that don't want to help others or do their fair share
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;34468865]Because in communism everyone has to cooperate fully for utopia to be achieved[/QUOTE]
what a silly idea. the same could be said for any utopia and Marx always criticized the concept of a utopia.
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;34468865]Because in communism everyone has to cooperate fully for utopia to be achieved, and that doesn't work if there are people that don't want to help others or do their fair share[/QUOTE]
hence why it would lead to coercion and this is why it is rejected by so many people. it is exactly why i said it is a fairy tale.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34468962]what a silly idea. the same could be said for any utopia and Marx always criticized the concept of a utopia.[/QUOTE]
Well we're obviously talking about different things then because I was pretty sure communism was supposed to be a utopia
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;34469134]Well we're obviously talking about different things then because I was pretty sure communism was supposed to be a utopia[/QUOTE]
which communist text states that it is supposed to be a utopia?
because the Manifesto certainly does not.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34469214]which communist text states that it is supposed to be a utopia?
because the Manifesto certainly does not.[/QUOTE]
If what you're saying is true then the American public school system has been lying to me for all my life
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;34469297]If what you're saying is true then the American public school system has been lying to me for all my life[/QUOTE]
The American school system, being intellectually dishonest or otherwise ignorant about Communism? Never in all my life would I have thought such a thing to be possible!
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;34469297]If what you're saying is true then the American public school system has been lying to me for all my life[/QUOTE]
it's your fault for trusting a biased institution over the actual written word.
Communism is typically agreed to be the end result of social change resulting from class struggle, completely the opposite of anything resembling a utopia.
the mistake people make is that communism isn't an economic plan, it's a world and sociological worldview.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34469391]it's your fault for trusting a biased institution over the actual written word.
Communism is typically agreed to be the end result of social change resulting from class struggle, completely the opposite of anything resembling a utopia.
the mistake people make is that communism isn't an economic plan, it's a world and sociological worldview.[/QUOTE]
I know that. I know about the dialectical theory of materialism, the class struggle theory of history, etc; I just wasn't aware that communism wasn't intended to be a utopia
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;34469134]Well we're obviously talking about different things then because I was pretty sure communism was supposed to be a utopia[/QUOTE]
what
that's basically the opposite of what marx was about. he was a political scientist; he cared - if anything - [I]too much[/I] about that which is empirical, material and tangible.
[editline]31st January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;34469297]If what you're saying is true then the American public school system has been lying to me for all my life[/QUOTE]
and you find this surprising because..?
Yeah, the whole communism thing is based upon the believe that human nature is neutral and
so the vision of the perfect society called communism could be theoretical possible.
Marx was a notorious humanist , typical for the 19th century, and like
all humanists he did not want face the act the mankind is just a very intelligent
form of agressive and chauvinistic monkeys who occupied earth by force.
But if we face his concept that mankinds nature is neutral and
"bad" socialisation comes from bad society -
HOW COULD A "BAD SOCIETY" BECOME POSSIBLE THEN?
It does not make sense.
According to that image of humanity such a bad-ass bad-motherfucker society like ours
what marxists call "Capitalism" could not exist, except their
premise or dogma about human nature is wrong.
The mass of the people anyways is and allways we will be plebs and
that is not a question of education. They lack esprit and the will to power,
they prefer to delegate responsebility and to be lead.
I can understand that - just doing your duty and not being responseable
is a noble wish, but there also have to be individuals with
the ability and the will to rule, thats how hierachy works.
what are you saying?
[QUOTE=Kellerbewohner;34472872]Yeah, the whole communism thing is based upon the believe that human nature is neutral and
so the vision of the perfect society called communism could be theoretical possible.
Marx was a notorious humanist , typical for the 19th century, and like
all humanists he did not want face the act the mankind is just a very intelligent
form of agressive and chauvinistic monkeys who occupied earth by force.
But if we face his concept that mankinds nature is neutral and
"bad" socialisation comes from bad society -
HOW COULD A "BAD SOCIETY" BECOME POSSIBLE THEN?
It does not make sense.
According to that image of humanity such a bad-ass bad-motherfucker society like ours
what marxists call "Capitalism" could not exist, except their
premise or dogma about human nature is wrong.
The mass of the people anyways is and allways we will be plebs and
that is not a question of education. They lack esprit and the will to power,
they prefer to delegate responsebility and to be lead.
I can understand that - just doing your duty and not being responseable
is a noble wish, but there also have to be individuals with
the ability and the will to rule, thats how hierachy works.[/QUOTE]
Human nature will "evil" as long as there are people like you saying "that's just how thing's are." Once people stop accepting this idea, and start trying to change, it will. And what is what is wrong with humanism?
[editline]30th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;34457345]Although I am generally a pretty optimistic person compared to others on this board, I'd say communism is far too optimistic about human nature. There is always going to be at least one terrible person, and in a communist society one evil man could destroy the entire system. That's why it's never really worked all too well.[/QUOTE]
Not really. Why does everyone think that one or two people could ruin a system? We would still have jails.
[QUOTE=Kellerbewohner;34472872]Yeah, the whole communism thing is based upon the believe that human nature is neutral and
so the vision of the perfect society called communism could be theoretical possible.
Marx was a notorious humanist , typical for the 19th century, and like
all humanists he did not want face the act the mankind is just a very intelligent
form of agressive and chauvinistic monkeys who occupied earth by force.
But if we face his concept that mankinds nature is neutral and
"bad" socialisation comes from bad society -
HOW COULD A "BAD SOCIETY" BECOME POSSIBLE THEN?
It does not make sense.
According to that image of humanity such a bad-ass bad-motherfucker society like ours
what marxists call "Capitalism" could not exist, except their
premise or dogma about human nature is wrong.
The mass of the people anyways is and allways we will be plebs and
that is not a question of education. They lack esprit and the will to power,
they prefer to delegate responsebility and to be lead.
I can understand that - just doing your duty and not being responseable
is a noble wish, but there also have to be individuals with
the ability and the will to rule, thats how hierachy works.[/QUOTE]
I feel like I'm reading something from 1984, just a lot less eloquent.
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;34472928]Not really. Why does everyone think that one or two people could ruin a system? We would still have jails.[/QUOTE]
But there is no government so who decides what the laws are and what the punishments are?
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;34473299]But there is no government so who decides what the laws are and what the punishments are?[/QUOTE]
The community? Or perhaps judges can be appointed for a trial.
Marx doesn't go into a lot of detail on what Communism actually means when it is achieved.
that's because marx wasn't writing a model for a society
[QUOTE=thisispain;34474047]that's because marx wasn't writing a model for a society[/QUOTE]
Rite. It is just a utopian ideal that theoretical should be heaven on earth.
Good that I do not believe in such naive bullshit.
[QUOTE]I feel like I'm reading something from 1984, just a lot less eloquent.[/QUOTE]
FAIL. George Orwells works are anti-communist. I anticipate animal-farm the most.
"Some animals are more equal" Like reality has mocked Marx and reduced
it's ideal to absurdity when it became the tool of counter-fascists like Stalin
or Mao.
As I have said already. The only good thing the Nazis did was that they ended
up this communist-nonsense in a consequent and efficient way.
The only people who deserved KZ was those damned red defeatists.
[QUOTE=Kellerbewohner;34474358]Rite. It is just a utopian ideal that theoretical should be heaven on earth.
Good that I do not believe in such naive bullshit.[/QUOTE]
"Rite", good for you that you didn't even read anything by Marx, god-forbid your narrow and outdated viewpoints get shaken up a bit.
and consider the concept of naive bullshit:
[quote=Kellersuckface]Democracy is rule of the people right. If the people want to exterminate inorities, for example gays,
that is DEMOCRATIC.[/quote]
thanks for the shit, nazi
[QUOTE=thisispain;34474386]"Rite", good for you that you didn't even read anything by Marx, god-forbid your narrow and outdated viewpoints get shaken up a bit.
and consider the concept of naive bullshit:
thanks for the shit, nazi[/QUOTE]
LOL I read Marx. But I did not become his disciple.
Now cry obvious communist-sympathisant.
I have to admit his analysis of the historical industrial/capitalistic-society is very accurate
but the conclusion he pulls out of it is garbage.
Personal/private property is a relict anyways. And that is said by an pro-market economy nationalist.
[QUOTE=Kellerbewohner;34474433]LOL I read Marx. But I did not become his disciple.
Now cry obvious communist-sympathisant.
I have to admit his analysis of the historical industrial/capitalistic-society is very accurate
but the conclusion he pulls out of it is garbage.
Personal/private property is a relict anyways. And that is said by an pro-market economy nationalist.[/QUOTE]
why would i cry exactly?
and no i don't think you could read marx and then declare it utopian.
considering it's one of the major points of what marxism is about.
[editline]31st January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kellerbewohner;34474358]
FAIL. George Orwells works are anti-communist. [/QUOTE]
George Orwell was a socialist who wrote positively about left-wing communism.
[QUOTE=Kellerbewohner;34474358]FAIL. George Orwells works are anti-communist.[/QUOTE]
are you even real
[QUOTE=thisispain;34474592]why would i cry exactly?
and no i don't think you could read marx and then declare it utopian.
considering it's one of the major points of what marxism is about.
[editline]31st January 2012[/editline]
George Orwell was a socialist who wrote positively about left-wing communism.[/QUOTE]
I read Marx. But to be fear I did not have an "open mind" - I just read to be able to fight communists.
So it is just logic that I dislike his ideas.
[QUOTE]George Orwell was a socialist who wrote positively about left-wing communism.[/QUOTE]
Yes, he was a [I]SOCIALIST[/I] but if you say his stuff was positive, you are just
indoctrinated. He criticised communism and socialism, that it is anti-communist.
Keller your the definition of Indoctrination ?
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