Should Christians abandon Christmas as a religious festival? - General

[QUOTE=Spooter;33787122]No. And what in the hell is the point of pointing out "Jesus wasn't born then, it's a pagan solstice date"? Who gives a shit? It's a religious holiday, why does it have to be historically accurate? No one ever says "Well Hanukkah is a bunch of shit those candles only burned for 7.45 days not eight!".[/QUOTE] 0.55 of a day =/= half a year

The early Christians founded holidays celebrations on solstices and other pagan celebratory days to win converts more easily.

[QUOTE=LegndNikko;33790795]0.55 of a day =/= half a year[/QUOTE] That's not the point. The point is why question the validity of a religious holiday based on something as trite (at least from the perspective of cultural significance) as historical accuracy?

[QUOTE=Spooter;33791587]That's not the point. The point is why question the validity of a religious holiday based on something as trite (at least from the perspective of cultural significance) as historical accuracy?[/QUOTE] ...Because if its historically inaccurate, then it's invalid? The holiday celebrates the birth of Christ to be that day, when it isn't that day. It'd be like going "Hey, happy new year! Sure is great that 2012 started today!" when it's April of 2012.

[QUOTE=Ladowerf;33789848]I'm pretty sure most of you are atheist because of religion's use as a "mind control" sort of thing or a way to control people (atleast that is probably what started it), so this is kinda hypocritical of you, FP.[/QUOTE] Or we're atheist because we don't believe in a god.

Christmas isn't a Christian holiday, its a commercial holiday.

[QUOTE=ripple3000;33792087]Christmas isn't a Christian holiday, its a commercial holiday.[/QUOTE] It became one. It was never valid, but it was still there, coming from the Christian faith. Hence, [B]Christ[/B]mas.

[QUOTE=LegndNikko;33792490]It became one. It was never valid, but it was still there, coming from the Christian faith. Hence, [B]Christ[/B]mas.[/QUOTE] Christ, Mass. Oh I see.

[QUOTE=LegndNikko;33792490]It became one. It was never valid, but it was still there, coming from the Christian faith. Hence, [B]Christ[/B]mas.[/QUOTE] It was forced then and its forced now.

wait christmas started in america dindt it?

[QUOTE=LegndNikko;33791834]...Because if its historically inaccurate, then it's invalid? The holiday celebrates the birth of Christ to be that day, when it isn't that day. It'd be like going "Hey, happy new year! Sure is great that 2012 started today!" when it's April of 2012.[/QUOTE] You must really have an issue with Chinese New Year then, don't you.

[QUOTE=Knuffelbeer;33795705]wait christmas started in america dindt it?[/QUOTE] ...Nnnno? Considering the pagans were a European thing, your post makes no sense. [editline]19th December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Canuhearmenow;33796008]You must really have an issue with Chinese New Year then, don't you.[/QUOTE] New year is actually a religious festival for both cultures, oddly enough. I don't know when it's measured in China, but everywhere else it's from Christ's death (hence Anno Domini)

If people want to celebrate it like a religious holiday, let them. Sure, some people just like Christmas for the presents. Others take it more seriously. I don't see a problem with any of it.

[QUOTE=Knuffelbeer;33782557] and i have no idea why we should buy presents for each other[/QUOTE] That's easy to explain. All the big stores and companies want to take advantage of a holiday centered around giving, so they've seeded in society's head that you're supposed to buy buy buy this time of year.

[QUOTE=AK'z;33786134]Such a pointless arguement. Think about it, atheists arguing about what Christians should believe in. :v:[/QUOTE] I was hoping there would be christians or ex-Christians talking about it according to personal experience, but Facepunch doesn't have the demographic for it.

I don't even believe Christmas is really a Christian holiday any more. What does a fat, white-beared, presumably immortal man who flies about in a sleigh pulled by reindeer drugged up on magical fairy dust that makes them fly somehow and gives presents to all the nice kids by dropping down their chimney and putting under a decorated tree have to do with Christmas. Not to mention he has a base of operations up in the north pole, which I suppose is okay since he hasn't claimed it as a country or anything (because, I think, that's illegal). And I'd be surprised that any Christian would condone a slave army of elves (which are supposed to be like short humanoids with pointy ears that can mass produce of possibly anything). If Santa Claus wanted to, he could probably have them build loads of guns and bombs and drop a much more explosive present down every ones chimneys. But yeah, unless that's not Christmas, then I don't understand where Christianity comes in to all of that.

[QUOTE=LegndNikko;33791834]...Because if its historically inaccurate, then it's invalid? The holiday celebrates the birth of Christ to be that day, when it isn't that day. It'd be like going "Hey, happy new year! Sure is great that 2012 started today!" when it's April of 2012.[/QUOTE] Yeah, you could do that. And if that was someone's religious belief or custom that April is when the year begins, then it would be just as [I]arrogant[/I] and [I]presumptuous[/I] to declare it [I]invalid.[/I]

Christmas is now especially in America,nonetheless about consumerism and advertisement. Also Christmas,is majorly made of old Pagan traditions,and has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus.

[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;33796077]...Nnnno? Considering the pagans were a European thing, your post makes no sense.[/QUOTE] it does it was a question, germanic pagans only celibrated new year not christmas, or maby your right, ancient germanic tribesman telling their children santa is coming to deliver presents.

I see many people still celebrate it in a religious way (along with commercial) to celebrate the birth of Jesus I don't think there's a rule where you have to celebrate an event on the day it actually happened

[QUOTE=Ladowerf;33789848]I really don't see how atheists could argue about what Christians should do I'm pretty sure most of you are atheist because of religion's use as a "mind control" sort of thing or a way to control people (atleast that is probably what started it), so this is kinda hypocritical of you, FP.[/QUOTE] Or just because the stories of the Bible/Torah/Quran have little to no basis in reality or fact?

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;33928364]Or just because the stories of the Bible/Torah/Quran have little to no basis in reality or fact?[/QUOTE] wow look at how long it took for you guys to stoop to this level

[QUOTE=Shiftyze;33781172]Oh if you only knew how many Christians in the US complained about how Atheists are ruining the meaning of Christmas when there is no meaning.[/QUOTE] There's meaning to Christians. That's the whole point. Atheists ruing the meaning by saying there is none and adding their own.

I don't even get the argument behind this. I'm going to completely ignore the OP as there is no way I'm abandoning the religious value of Christmas just because it's celebrated in a different way by more people. I hate when someone says that a religious group (typically the extremely overactive minority of the group) is forcing their views down their throat, but then turns around and tells said religious group to "abandon" a holiday that has historically been held with great religious importance to that religious group. Also, there's that argument floating around here now that the date isn't historically accurate. Christmas, to Christians, is of a symbolic nature. It REPRESENTS a date, whether it be on that date or not. I can't stand that there's clearly one side of the argument in this thread trying to convince the other that there's little to no religious value in Christmas when that's completely up to the religious group celebrating it in the first place. If you personally don't find any religious value in Christmas, then good for you, but don't you dare try to force that upon anyone else who actually does (sounds familiar, I think). TL;DR: Arguing over someone's free choice of celebrating religious (as far as they care) holidays as such is pointless. Makes no sense.

[QUOTE=MrWhite;33932444]I don't even get the argument behind this. I'm going to completely ignore the OP as there is no way I'm abandoning the religious value of Christmas just because it's celebrating in a different way by more people. I hate when someone says that a religious group (typically the extremely overactive minority of the group) is forcing their views down their throat, but then turns around and tells said religious group to "abandon" a holiday that has historically been held with great religious importance to that religious group. Also, there's that argument floating around here now that the date isn't historically accurate. Christmas, to Christians, is of a symbolic nature. It REPRESENTS a date, whether it be on that date or not. I can't stand that there's clearly one side of the argument in this thread trying to convince the other that there's little to no religious value in Christmas when that's completely up to the religious group celebrating it in the first place. If you personally don't find any religious value in Christmas, then good for you, but don't you dare try to force that upon anyone else who actually does (sounds familiar, I think). TL;DR: Arguing over someone's free choice of celebrating religious (as far as they care) holidays as such is pointless. Makes no sense.[/QUOTE] I apologise for getting the tone wrong in the OP. To be honest this debate only works when you have an even mix between open minded Christians,and atheists who are knowledgeable of Christianity.

If it gives them a reason to get together, spread happiness and be loving I don't see why they should abandon Christmas.

Don't have time to read the whole thread, but if it hasn't been said yet it's necessary: No one knows the exact date of birth of Jesus of Nazareth. People ironically argue that it happened anywhere between 2-7 BC- that's from wikipedia. I've heard it's possible he was born up to 8 BC. The celebration of Christmas coincides with the exact date of the Roman Saturnalia and Sol Invictus. The day itself was commemorated time immemorial outside of the ecclesiastical tradition. Pagan or otherwise-- Christmas was a very minor calendar day (Saint Nicholas' patron saint day is the 6th of Dec or something) until the American acceptance of it (it was banned under the auspices of being too British) and celebration in the mid-19th century. There is no spiritual reason you should celebrate Christmas unless you're a Catholic with a penchant for obscure facts. Or you're still of the age where parents gift you cool things and not just a few bones towards rent.

Christmas is what you make it out to be. If you want to celebrate it in a religious way, so be it. If you want it to be a holiday about presents, food, decorations, and other commercialized things, then you can if you want to. If you simply want it as a way to relax and mingle with your family, then let it be so. Or it could be a combination of any of these, or all three, or something totally different. There is no real meaning, just whatever you make it out to be at this point in time.

[QUOTE=Kommodore;33971182]Don't have time to read the whole thread, but if it hasn't been said yet it's necessary: No one knows the exact date of birth of Jesus of Nazareth. People ironically argue that it happened anywhere between 2-7 BC- that's from wikipedia. I've heard it's possible he was born up to 8 BC. The celebration of Christmas coincides with the exact date of the Roman Saturnalia and Sol Invictus. The day itself was commemorated time immemorial outside of the ecclesiastical tradition. Pagan or otherwise-- Christmas was a very minor calendar day (Saint Nicholas' patron saint day is the 6th of Dec or something) until the American acceptance of it (it was banned under the auspices of being too British) and celebration in the mid-19th century. There is no spiritual reason you should celebrate Christmas unless you're a Catholic with a penchant for obscure facts. Or you're still of the age where parents gift you cool things and not just a few bones towards rent.[/QUOTE] Except that over the course of a good 1500 years, Christmas has developed with Christian influences, and more specifically celebrates the birth of Christ and the reconcilliation between man and God. Whether Jesus was born near the solstice or not, or whether the traditions themselves are pagan inspired, the holiday is still significant to Christianity on account of it being an important time of celebration/remembrance in western society. Plus, you have to remember that despite the solstice festivals being adopted by Christianity, they were still deeply important to near everyone in Europe. So, despite being given a new face, medieval to modern Christians have still been celebrating that period of the year where people get together, make merry, and exchange gifts. Christmas is totally spiritually significant just by the act of celebrating it, whether you're Christian or not.