"Better to have never been" by David Benatar. A RIGHT TO HAVE CHILDREN?
102 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;17828389]Changes over time, specifically with embryonic growth.[/QUOTE]
If it becomes a legitimate issue, I guess people will deal with it somehow.
[QUOTE=jalit;17828402]Meh, don't care.[/QUOTE]
Apathy is not a way to go through life, do you care about helping the environment?
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17828406]Meh. They will be dead soon enough.[/QUOTE]
They won't be if you take care of them.
Damn! This thread is moving fast!
[QUOTE=livelonger12;17828413]Why not adopt a child who is suffering and give him/her a wonderful life?[/QUOTE]
Because it isn't your child.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;17828321]I'm looking at the long-term consequences of doing the things we're doing.[/QUOTE]
I guess you have a right to be worried about hormonal imbalances in wide-ranging species, but when something affects so directly a species ability to reproduce, natural selection kicks it into high gear. I would seriously expect that fish overall adjust their own hormonal production centers to produce less estrogen and probably more testosterone to adjust for the imbalance in the water. This kind of change only needs like 4 or 5 generations to manifest on a large scale. Of course, higher testosterone would also mean more aggressive fish, though.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17828421]If it becomes a legitimate issue, I guess people will deal with it somehow.[/QUOTE]
It is a legitimate issue, it's just small right now, if we can nip it in the bud now, it won't have to be a major issue later on.
You sound like America on the Environment in the 1950's.
[QUOTE=Cathbadh;17828431]I guess you have a right to be worried about hormonal imbalances in wide-ranging species, but when something affects so directly a species ability to reproduce, natural selection kicks it into high gear. I would seriously expect that fish overall adjust their own hormonal production centers to produce less estrogen and probably more testosterone to adjust for the imbalance in the water. This kind of change only needs like 4 or 5 generations to manifest on a large scale. Of course, higher testosterone [B]would also mean more aggressive fish[/B], though.[/QUOTE]
So we could like, have fish fights? Fuck that sounds awesome, and like it would piss of PETA.
[editline]12:52PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;17828435][B]It is a legitimate issue[/B], it's just small right now, if we can nip it in the bud now, it won't have to be a major issue later on.
You sound like America on the Environment in the 1950's.[/QUOTE]
How so?
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17828406]Meh. They will be dead soon enough.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't expect you to understand, due to your age, but you'll see what I'm arguing about.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;17828423]Apathy is not a way to go through life, do you care about helping the environment?[/QUOTE]
Yes, if immortality is founded. Call it selfish but meh.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17828445]
How so?[/QUOTE]
Do I really have to explain these each and every time, or can I hope you can see both sides of the issue.
Anyway, it's a legitimate issue not in that it is on CNN and such, it's an issue because we can NOTICE it happening, which makes it legitimate.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17828430]Because it isn't your child.[/QUOTE]
But it's better than to leave the child to suffer for the remainder of its days.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;17828458]I wouldn't expect you to understand, due to your age, but you'll see what I'm arguing about.[/QUOTE]
Ageism, really? Relatively, they will be dead soon enough, 50-80 years is really nothing in the grand scheme of the universe and such. And what do their deaths mean? I don't think it's a big deal. I guess I would care if it affected me, but it doesn't.
[editline]12:55PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=livelonger12;17828475]But it's better than to leave the child to suffer for the remainder of its days.[/QUOTE]
But people want to pass on their genes.
[QUOTE=jalit;17828467]Yes, if immortality is founded.[/QUOTE]
Well, if Immortality was possible I would certainly throw all the things I said out the door as well, but the problem is that the only source of Immortality we have thus far is Gene's, and that's what I'm going for (Granted, I'm studying to be a Biomedical Engineer, so I'll be looking for some way for Immortality, here's to hoping I, or someone else finds it before I have kids.)
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;17828472]Do I really have to explain these each and every time, or can I hope you can see both sides of the issue.
Anyway, it's a legitimate issue not in that it is on CNN and such, it's an issue because we can NOTICE it happening, which makes it legitimate.[/QUOTE]
Is it actually causing a negative affect?
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17828477]Ageism, really? Relatively, they will be dead soon enough, 50-80 years is really nothing in the grand scheme of the universe and such. And what do their deaths mean? I don't think it's a big deal. I guess I would care if it affected me, but it doesn't.
[/QUOTE]
Are you arguing about adopting, or having kids. And yes, I am saying Ageism since something like having children would give vastly different responses from a 15 year old then, say, a 20 year old.
[editline]12:57PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17828502]Is it actually causing a negative affect?[/QUOTE]
It's at the point where it possibly could, in 10-20 years we'll probably have a definite answer.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;17828511]Are you arguing about adopting, or having kids.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying why people would have kids instead of adopting them.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;17828498]Well, if Immortality was possible I would certainly throw all the things I said out the door as well, but the problem is that the only source of Immortality we have thus far is Gene's, and that's what I'm going for (Granted, I'm studying to be a Biomedical Engineer, so I'll be looking for some way for Immortality, here's to hoping I, or someone else finds it before I have kids.)[/QUOTE]
Yes but reproducing by itself won't produce genes needed for immortality. Only our intelligence will be able to do that. (or maybe intelligence that we have not yet met)
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17828477]
But people want to pass on their genes.[/QUOTE]
We're all practically the same (or at least 99.9% genetically equal) with the addenda of external conditioning. Adopting a child would have little difference to having your own child; it will still be yours and will base upon your conditioning in later years.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17828519]I'm saying why people would have kids instead of adopting them.[/QUOTE]
Someone's going to have the birth the fuckers, might as well be you.
[editline]12:59PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=jalit;17828521]Yes but reproducing by itself won't produce genes needed for immortality. Only our intelligence will be able to do that. (or maybe intelligence that we have not yet met)[/QUOTE]
It's not perfect, I understand, but it's better then just letting your gene's die out.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;17828534][B]We're all practically the same[/B] (or at least 99.9% genetically equal) with the addenda of external conditioning. Adopting a child would have little difference to having your own child; it will still be yours and will base upon your conditioning in later years.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but people want to have children that look like them. That .1% makes a pretty big difference there.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;17828534]We're all practically the same (or at least 99.9% genetically equal) with the addenda of external conditioning. Adopting a child would have little difference to having your own child; it will still be yours and will base upon your conditioning in later years.[/QUOTE]
It actually does, the difference between as little as one Chromosomal pair could mean the difference between an average child or a pants-on-head retard.
[editline]01:00PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17828541]Yes, but people want to have children that look like them. That .1% makes a pretty big difference there.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, I can argue that the exact case can be made by chimpanzee's, since they only have a what, 2% difference between us and them?
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;17828554]It actually does, the difference between as little as one Chromosomal pair could mean the difference between an average child or a pants-on-head retard.
[/QUOTE]
I don't think all children in places such as Africa are 'pants-on-head retards' - I'm pretty sure that plenty of them are potentially intelligent. Why not adopt them evading our selfishness and give them a better life? As said before, they'll still be your kids.
[editline]06:05PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17828541]Yes, but people want to have children that look like them. That .1% makes a pretty big difference there.[/QUOTE]
"wanting" children to look like their parents won't solve global epidemics.
Nobody should enforce anyone else's moral decisions.
Unfortunately, human nature ALWAYS boils down to this: "What's right for me is right for everyone, and I want it enforced for all." (and to an extent when some things don't get enforced, people die)
[QUOTE=livelonger12;17828625]I don't think all children in places such as Africa are 'pants-on-head retards' - I'm pretty sure that plenty of them are potentially intelligent. [B]Why not adopt them evading our selfishness and give them a better life? As said before, they'll still be your kids.[/B][/QUOTE]
Because they won't be our kids. Would you want to take your chances with some kid in Africa being smart, or use your own genes?
[editline]01:06PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=livelonger12;17828625]I don't think all children in places such as Africa are 'pants-on-head retards' - I'm pretty sure that plenty of them are potentially intelligent. Why not adopt them evading our selfishness and give them a better life? As said before, they'll still be your kids.
[editline]06:05PM[/editline]
[B]"wanting" children to look like their parents won't solve global epidemics[/B].[/QUOTE]
I don't think when your parents made you, they were thinking about solving global epidemics.
We don't have a collective, moral duty to "solve the global overpopulation problem" by limiting our existence. Space is huge. Use it. The likes of the wealthy power-elite just want less of us. Understand that.
Maybe people have kids because their brains give them pleasure for doing so? Life needs motivation to do things. Just like eating and sleeping is pleasurable.
[QUOTE=jalit;17828698]Maybe people have kids because their brains give them pleasure for doing so? Life needs motivation to do things. [B]Just like eating and sleeping is pleasurable.[/B][/QUOTE]
On the contrary, being hungry is annoying and being sleepy just sucks.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17828726]On the contrary, being hungry is annoying and being sleepy just sucks.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, it motivates you to eat and sleep so you dont feel bad and it rewards you in the process.
"wants to quote OP"
Bravo.
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