Forums Discussion v3 - Post about Tudd and win a 1 month ban
5,023 replies, posted
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;52618736]Just because he's moved some sections around and, I'll admit, some really great changes to the forums themselves, but his behavior in this thread has been far from exemplary and sometimes downright insulting.
When you do some good and do some bad, they don't cancel out. You should be praised for what you did right and people should still call you out for what you've done wrong.[/QUOTE]
I think vague accusations and slander is pretty insulting but there you go.
Maybe you should take a few hours out and come back in a better frame of mind?
[QUOTE=Hezzy;52618751]I think vague accusations and slander is pretty insulting but there you go.
Maybe you should take a few hours out and come back in a better frame of mind?[/QUOTE]
Tu quoque? You're avoiding the issue by being snide and telling me that I'm the problem.
And this is right after you said that there are actually issues present and that you're working to fix it, but this once again shows that not to be the case.
[editline]27th August 2017[/editline]
Like I would have more understanding if you would actually respond to the criticism rather than attacking everyone who dares question you, like you have in the past.
[QUOTE=Hezzy;52618269]
I feel that our current approach to moderation can be somewhat [B]inconsistent[/B]. Previously, we had rules and guidelines for new moderators, but these were discarded some years ago. [B]The current style is rather ad-hoc[/B], and I will be writing guidelines to address this; covering specifics for moderation as well as the general ethics of a moderator.[/QUOTE]
Preach it my police nigga. I felt that too, but at the same time it was also refreshing, cause you could ban people for fun reasons. :cool:
Edit: And of course the whole, skipping the incremental bans of 1 day, 3 days, a week and so on. I don't think the mods need strict rules, just maybe be more understanding of why people react as they do.
If you're gonna criticise someone, at least have evidence ready to backup what your saying instead of saying big powerwords that have absolutely no meaning behind them
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;52618764]Tu quoque? You're avoiding the issue by being snide and telling me that I'm the problem.
And this is right after you said that there are actually issues present and that you're working to fix it, but this once again shows that not to be the case.
[editline]27th August 2017[/editline]
Like I would have more understanding if you would actually respond to the criticism rather than attacking everyone who dares question you, like you have in the past.[/QUOTE]
Hezzy has responded to the valid criticism, I feel like. At this point you're just attacking him as a person for not being as polite as he could be, I guess?
What do you want to see changed, specifically?
hezzys great i think we can all agree icemaz is the real problem here..
look at him..smug bastard.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;52618773]If you're gonna criticise someone, at least have evidence ready to backup what your saying instead of saying big powerwords that have absolutely no meaning behind them[/QUOTE]
I did, in that same post I had two examples, do you want me to go back through the last few of these threads for more?
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;52618764]Tu quoque? You're avoiding the issue by being snide and telling me that I'm the problem.
And this is right after you said that there are actually issues present and that you're working to fix it, but this once again shows that not to be the case.
[editline]27th August 2017[/editline]
Like I would have more understanding if you would actually respond to the criticism rather than attacking everyone who dares question you, like you have in the past.[/QUOTE]
These things don't happen overnight. I've been discussing with the moderator team how best to move forward with the new moderation guidelines. I am also working on the new Community Fund, researching the legalities surrounding it and setting up payment options. I am also trying to organise some fun things to launch with.
On top of all this, I also work close to 50 hours a week and everything I do on Facepunch is out of the kindness of my heart.
It's slow going but we're getting there.
How exactly am I supposed to respond to somebody who exhibits so much hostility?
[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;52618642]I'm sorry, but neither do you. All you've done since you've come back from being gone so long is power trip, honest to god. Every ounce of respect I used to have for you has dried up since you've been failing to do your job (as a 'community manager'). And I know you don't care and that's exactly why you don't belong here.[/QUOTE]
What kind of productive conversation can be gleamed from such a stand-offish interaction? It's borderline libel; you clearly changed your mind from saying that I've done nothing but power trip to admitting that I've actually been the dominant force behind some "really great changes" to the forum.
[QUOTE=Pascall;52618775]Hezzy has responded to the valid criticism, I feel like. At this point you're just attacking him as a person for not being as polite as he could be, I guess?
What do you want to see changed, specifically?[/QUOTE]
Alright, whatever, I give up. I'm just tired of seeing mods shitpost over the site and actively insult people who step up because they care, and nothing being done to improve this. I love this site to death despite all it's problems, but it really feels like there are more issues now than in the last seven years. I was going to post this, as an example:
[quote]Also, I'm curious, who's job is it to oversee the mods themselves? Because some of them, well, actually, I should be specific here: Kiwi has some really godawful posts and it doesn't seem like anything has been learned. People have been complaining about Kiwi since day 1 and the shitposting still continues.
[QUOTE=Kiwi;52617862]are you capable of not having a meltdown?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, what exactly does this accomplish? Not only is this a loaded question, it's almost an ad hominem attack too. It's literally just a thinly-veiled insult. I don't know about you, but usually when someone posts "are you capable of not being an idiot?" they get banned.[/quote]
As an example, Pascall. Hezzy has his fair share of posts like this too and I just thought that was unacceptable as a 'community manager,' and perhaps I got out of line saying 'all he's ever done is be terrible,' but it honestly feels like that at first, before I realize all the great changes he's made to the forums that has helped some of the great divisive issues that've been plaguing this place over the last year or so. Reading some of the other posts calling me out on this made me realize I had forgotten about this and I feel incredibly stupid for it.
I just want there to be better acting mods. Not necessary being nice, but actually following the rules they set out [I]is[/I] an issue with me. This is what I want changed. Because as far as I can see, the rules themselves are pretty good. The mods generally have great discretion when it comes to banning other users and forum management, spare a few here and there were mistakes happen, but that's going to happen regardless. So the biggest issue in my mind definitely has to be the fact that the mods seem to be actively disregarding their own rules when they see fit, and shaming users who dare call them out on it.
[editline]27th August 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Hezzy;52618811]What kind of productive conversation can be gleamed from such a stand-offish interaction? It's borderline libel; you clearly changed your mind from saying that I've done nothing but power trip to admitting that I've actually been the dominant force behind some "really great changes" to the forum.[/QUOTE]
I was wrong, I should clarify. I didn't think that you were the one behind all this in my haste to post against what I felt was important in the moment. I apologize if you feel as if it was libel. So, you could say I changed my mind, as there were many things I did not consider whatsoever in that very emotionally-charged post at the start there.
Hezzy just made a post saying that moderator and rule discrepancies are gonna be hammered out here soon. But he's a busy dude and it takes patience and cohesiveness to make sure we're all on the same page. Especially when almost none of us live in the same area and are all on at different times. I think the only one I share time zones with is Craptasket. I miss any conversation that goes on when mods from across the world are online.
I can agree that sometimes moderator posting gets out of hand, and we need to be able to reflect on why we're moderators in the first place. That's a valid complaint. But slopping around petty personal attacks isn't really a productive way of pointing that out.
Not all moderators are going to be beacons of sunshine and daisies and even if they are, they're not always gonna be in great moods. We volunteered for these positions and we're not getting paid for it. I, for one, am in my final semester of university and have terrible, terrible insomnia which is why I'm generally more relaxed, because I really am tired all the time. But we do this because we enjoy it and because it's nice to be able to help keep this place clean. We'll make mistakes and not be on the same page sometimes because we missed a discussion between us, or we didn't realize one person had planned to handle a situation already before we got to it. Communication between us isn't always so easy and readily accessible.
There are improvements to be made, for sure. But they're gonna take some time, and we ask that you guys be patient rather than assuming that nothing is happening behind the scenes.
[QUOTE=Reagy;52618683]Tomo was warned to chill but continued to keep raising the heat[/QUOTE]
why are you a mod if you can't handle the heat tbh
[QUOTE=Reagy;52618683]Tomo was warned to chill but continued to keep raising the heat, also there's more going on behind the scene with them.
The point they raised is fine but its the fact they kept pushing after being warned is why they got banned.[/QUOTE]
I understand the first part, and maybe I'm just naive to the nuance and savvy of the banning process, but why is "more going on behind the scenes" relevant? Unless they're actively harassing the mods or other users through PMs or other FP functions (or doing something actively illegal), shouldn't his status as banned/unbanned be purely based on what he does on the forum? Genuinely curious as to that part, as it seems intriguing that you would bring it up as part of his ban justification.
[QUOTE=icemaz;52616381]All users should be forced to use an avatar sourced using a google image search of their username, resized to 80 x 80[/QUOTE]
[img]https://orig14.deviantart.net/2647/f/2010/038/e/1/arc_nova_badge_by_shadow_wolf.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Duck M.;52618878]I understand the first part, and maybe I'm just naive to the nuance and savvy of the banning process, but why is "more going on behind the scenes" relevant? Unless they're actively harassing the mods or other users through PMs or other FP functions (or doing something actively illegal), shouldn't his status as banned/unbanned be purely based on what he does on the forum? Genuinely curious as to that part, as it seems intriguing that you would bring it up as part of his ban justification.[/QUOTE]
Because it was part of the reasoning behind the ban, its entirely justified to mention it as its related to the ban.
Both parts applied into the ban, the first was the warning of which they choose to ignore and continued posting in a heated fashion and the second was what I raised.
There has always been [i]a mod[/i] or two at any time that was a bit questionable, but overall the mods have always been pretty good about being fair. It feels like recently is the worst about this though, but that might be because of all the changes happening and new mods.
[QUOTE=Asaratha;52618874]mod post quality has gone down significantly since the rise of this mentality of "haha i dont care did u guys see how dismissive i was??", new mods are extremely guilty of this imo in some sort of attempt to "fit in", it's been an issue i noted since i was a mod but i saw no point in discussing it[/QUOTE]
I really like novangel and sgt doom as mods for this reason since they pretty much just "got it" when they became moderators. there wasn't any of the shit we've seen itt thus far with them.
[QUOTE=sam6420;52618991]So, this is all about kiwi, then?[/QUOTE]
I'm going to be blunt here and say that yes I do think Kiwi has been a problem for me. I think Kiwi is a cool person and have been tangentially amicable with them in the past, but I really don't think that their posting over the past month or two has been up to standards. Make no mistake, this isn't exclusive to them, but they're who stands out to me the most to where it feels like they're getting Tudd levels of reception on each of their posts.
And because Kiwi is a moderator, that somehow gives him a free pass to shitpost. Any standard member would probably be banned.
Just read through the last few pages. I think people should realize that the heavy investment they're putting into speaking with the moderators is kind of a waste of time - not that the staff here is unreasonable, but because this forum has always been pretty relaxed in terms of changes. I think some people are hyping themselves up to be super angry and dramatic with moderators who aren't going to respond seriously 99% of the time. And that's probably the preferred choice for some because overly serious has never been the kind environment I think Facepunch was ever trying to be. That's why you get title changes, poked fun, and bans sometimes - some of which I support because I as well as many others have had to learn to chill out. A lot of the stuff people are fuming over right now are not a big deal.
That's not to say if you have a gripe you shouldn't bring it up, but you should do so with the understanding that this forum and thread isn't some sort of parliament with established rules or anything. We're just a bunch of weirdos killing time on the internet on a silly site. You're allowed to like the community as much as you want, but I feel like some people are looking at it as if their community is being ripped apart when what has really happened is at most an annoyance.
My .02.
Overall, I think the mods act pretty shittily (not all do mind you there are still good mods, and some are still learning the ropes, but it feels like the shitposting from mods has gone up a lot). In the past problems seemed to only be from a couple of mods and as time went on they were weeded out for one reason or another.
But now it feels like more moderators are just shitposting and not setting a good example for the rest of the forum, which is ironic when mods just say "lurk to learn how the forum works" and now it seems the example they'll see is shitposting from mods. I'm a moderator on a smaller forum than FP, but if I posted there like some of the mods here post I'd get the boot. You should be attempting to set an example, and generally not ban people in threads you're a contributor to because you're not impartial (ie the whole Jimmemia "bold is now banned" fiasco). To me that doesn't mean don't comment in threads, but rather if you're an active contributor to a discussion or if someone is calling you out/engaging you it's probably best to leave that ban to someone else.
And then there's the rules. They're scattered about all over the place, and some aren't even written down ("common sense" to who exactly? That's too vague and personal a statement for a clear set of rules). I don't think on the whole the rules here are bad, but they need to be spelled out much clearer for new users - concisely as well - to eliminate as much confusion as possible.
I do think though that way to many people think that mods moderate facepunch 24/7 and have absolutely nothing else going on in their lives. You don't know what they are currently going through. People get stressed. People get anxiety. People can get hardly any sleep. Yes it gets extremely annoying seeing mods constantly joke about user concerns. Yes they could tone it down a bit. But joking around might be their way of handling their stress.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;52619059]Just read through the last few pages. I think people should realize that the heavy investment they're putting into speaking with the moderators is kind of a waste of time - not that the staff here is unreasonable, but because this forum has always been pretty relaxed in terms of changes. I think some people are hyping themselves up to be super angry and dramatic with moderators who aren't going to respond seriously 99% of the time. And that's probably the preferred choice for some because overly serious has never been the kind environment I think Facepunch was ever trying to be. That's why you get title changes, poked fun, and bans sometimes - some of which I support because I as well as many others have had to learn to chill out. A lot of the stuff people are fuming over right now are not a big deal.
That's not to say if you have a gripe you shouldn't bring it up, but you should do so with the understanding that this forum and thread isn't some sort of parliament with established rules or anything. We're just a bunch of weirdos killing time on the internet on a silly site. You're allowed to like the community as much as you want, but I feel like some people are looking at it as if their community is being ripped apart when what has really happened is at most an annoyance.[/QUOTE]
I 100% agree about the culture and atmosphere of this forum being relaxed and a little wacky, but at the same time I feel like there's a middle-ground to where you can be a good poster without being strung up too tight. When some of our mods are below-average posters it raises the question of why they're mods in the first place, particularly when they're the ones who set that very tone and image that our board has to offer. Moderators are both representative of and reflective of the forum as a whole, and so if the mods are lazy shitposters, then that doesn't reflect too well on us.
No matter how 'relaxed' of a forum we are, shitposting isn't something that we should encourage and is something that I feel like most users dont enjoy seeing (unless it's in the appropriate context).
Honestly, from this point on, if you want to bring up issues with specific mods, the best thing to do is bring some good evidence and proof. It's hard to tackle potential issues when we're not sure where the issues are coming from specifically, especially since we don't all constantly monitor each other's behavior. We generally trust each other's judgement.
But if we're just going to fling around baseless claims, then it doesn't help anyone, and is really just dogpiling with no real information. If you guys have issues with "some" moderators, point out which ones. Point out the posts you take issue with and be specific about why you take issue with it. That way it can be handled appropriately.
Preferably, PM your issues to Hezzy. He's willing to hear out the specifics of any problems you guys might have, but again, please make sure to construct your messages appropriately. Otherwise, it's kind of a waste of everyone's time.
If you have any other issues with forum management, rules, or anything else in general, you can post them here. But complaints about specific moderators are best fielded towards Hezzy.
I feel like that's a fair compromise. At this point, if you have nothing further to add beyond 'some mods are bad', we'd rather you didn't post at all. Help us improve rather than using this thread to vent.
the only solution is to remod tudd
Agree about some of the rules not being written down
'Rating spam', 'Trolling with ratings', 'Cares about ratings', 'Visitor messager abuse', 'Mod sass' for example are not written down anywhere
[QUOTE=Judas;52619197]the only solution is to remod tudd[/QUOTE]
Reformed rules and mod handbook when? :v:
I'm all for pointing out my flaws, if you think I've done wrong, bring it up (but at least put some effort into it).
Sure I get a stupid and like to have my own ideas of fun which sure it can annoy everyone.
If you think I'm being too daft and need to step back in line, honestly tell me or tell Hezzy.
I'd rather know I'm fucking up instead of just keeping down on the wild ride thinking everything is ok.
Over what happened with the avatar stuff, I was led under the impression it was all a joke hence why I followed in suit but clearly some people took having a bit of fun as something more serious and flipped their shit over it (which I admit wasn't really helped by throwing more fuel into the fire, even though it was quite comical from our end).
Basically what I'm saying is if you think I'm being a tool and doing things wrong, point it out and I'll take it in as long as its actually reinforced with evidence, if not expect me to take it with a pile of salt like I do with everything else.
I've not really changed my posting style if that is one issue people have, I'm still the same stupid me since before and after getting asked if I want to take on this role and I'm quite sure some of you know that.
[QUOTE=TomatoGuy;52619204]Agree about some of the rules not being written down
'Rating spam', 'Trolling with ratings', 'Cares about ratings', 'Visitor messager abuse', 'Mod sass' for example are not written down anywhere[/QUOTE]
In my honest view, I don't think those need to be written down. They fall under the common sense band (granted it could do with some examples).
If we wrote down everything we'd have a rules page as big as the encyclopedia britannica.
The other thing is I don't even know if we [I]can edit[/I] the rules page, I believe its a static page, not something controlled within the admin panel which means only Garry would be able to change it.
Make Facepunch better:
Unban and remod MaxOfS2D
[QUOTE=TomatoGuy;52619225]Make Facepunch better:
Unban and remod MaxOfS2D[/QUOTE]He's too busy doing TF2 inflation porn.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.