• Why is it OK to symphatize the Soviet Union and heil them?
    54 replies, posted
The soviet union ( and i right it with lower capitals because it isn't a real country anymore ) is a laughable attempt at "communism" with faulty leaders, corruption, stupidity and carelessness. The only good thing about communism was that there were no taxes for housing, heat and water.The soviet union is just a failure of management, totalitarianism and authoritarianism. Having feelings that the soviet union was a paradise is as laughable as saying that we will all use golden toilets, live in massive mansions and have amazing food forever because people will work together. My grand-grandpartens, grandparents, parents have lived in communist times and i can only see there bitter hate of the regime.Not only because we went from democracy to dictatorship, but because we were occupied by red scum. The soviet union is just a example of a countries that tries to look democratic while occupying other nations, forcing there regime and ideology on others and being useless. I'd say the soviet union has caused massive number and i support about the number 40 million people killed. Reason - artificial starvation, partisan executions, mass deportation to Siberia, war time executions and killings of the red army soldiers, faulty army tactics that caused massive deaths, concentration camps by the soviet union, stalin's paranoid killings, soviet union expansionism, killing protesters, Latvian army officer mass executions at Litene, killings of revolutionaries and probably more hidden files that reveal killings.
Really, it's only because the USSR was on the winning side of the war. The saying "my enemy's enemy is my friend could be any more true when comes to the relationship between the Allies and the Soviets during WWII. I wouldn't say that the USSR itself was evil, more that it was Stalin who was. Unlike the Communists, the National Socialist ideology had ingrained into it the idea of race supremecy and whatnot. By comparison, Communism as it was set out by Lennin was a lot more tolerant and peaceful (it was just skewed somewhat by Stalin).
[QUOTE=sonerin;36767173]Like I said, Soviet Union is hiding the real death tolls. [/QUOTE] Bollocks. We have good figures and it isn't anywhere near 70 million. The figure you're using is an exaggeration of an exaggeration. The HIGHEST figure that is even considered for the USSR's death toll is 20 million, and that comes from a hugely biased and several-times-discredited source, the Black Book of Communism by Stéphane Courtois. The Black Book's estimate of Mao's 65 million is likely what you're thinking of, but even that is very high and taking into account such things as government inefficiencies leading to starvation and overwork, which were not intentional deaths but rather the effects of mass industrialization and forced collectivization under inefficient and corrupt means. While we can and probably should blame these deaths on the leadership, this isn't unexpected. The Western democracies' working class had enormous death rates due to the effects of the industrial revolution until the late 1880s, but we aren't as concerned with them because they're a lesser amount over a far larger range. The nonindustrial eastern nations didn't have the ability to industrialize through natural means over a natural period, but rather were forced to industrialize under extreme pressure in time spans of only a decade- so of course they had huge losses. This is not the problem of communism, or even the deformed statist totalitarian bullshit that was Mao's China and the post-Lenin USSR, but rather inefficient mass industrialization with no regard for human life. Whether or not you can claim these deaths as the victims of communism comes down to whether you consider the totalitarian Maoist and Stalinist states as communist and whether communism, or mass industrialization, killed them. I hate those regimes, but I still think that your death toll is BS. The USSR wouldn't try to hide the real death tolls for long and Russia has been open about it- for the same reason: both the post-Stalin and post-Soviet Russia wished to discredit Stalin.
[QUOTE=Conscript;36771004]Support this.[/QUOTE] uh yeah i get that the 70 million figure was inflated but there's no denying that the soviets killed millions of their own people [editline]15th July 2012[/editline] also OP, it isn't that the soviets are getting a free pass in their genocide, it's that [B]everyone[/B] apart from the nazis gets a free pass on their genocide, relatively speaking. I mean the catholic church has committed far more numerous atrocities (including genocide) over its long existence than the nazis could dream of, and criticism of them is limited to standup comedy and atheist blogs hardly anyone in the west cares about holodomor, the irish potato famine, or the genocide of american natives. I mean people know about them but they don't provoke the visceral "ick" reaction that the mention of gaschambers does
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];36779854']Bollocks. We have good figures and it isn't anywhere near 70 million. The figure you're using is an exaggeration of an exaggeration. The HIGHEST figure that is even considered for the USSR's death toll is 20 million, and that comes from a hugely biased and several-times-discredited source, the Black Book of Communism by Stéphane Courtois. The Black Book's estimate of Mao's 65 million is likely what you're thinking of, but[B] even that is very high and taking into account such things as government inefficiencies leading to starvation and overwork, which were not intentional deaths but rather the effects of mass industrialization and forced collectivization under inefficient and corrupt means.[/B] While we can and probably should blame these deaths on the leadership, this isn't unexpected. The Western democracies' working class had enormous death rates due to the effects of the industrial revolution until the late 1880s, but we aren't as concerned with them because they're a lesser amount over a far larger range. The nonindustrial eastern nations didn't have the ability to industrialize through natural means over a natural period, but rather were forced to industrialize under extreme pressure in time spans of only a decade- so of course they had huge losses. This is not the problem of communism, or even the deformed statist totalitarian bullshit that was Mao's China and the post-Lenin USSR, but rather inefficient mass industrialization with no regard for human life. Whether or not you can claim these deaths as the victims of communism comes down to whether you consider the totalitarian Maoist and Stalinist states as communist and whether communism, or mass industrialization, killed them. I hate those regimes, but I still think that your death toll is BS. The USSR wouldn't try to hide the real death tolls for long and Russia has been open about it- for the same reason: both the post-Stalin and post-Soviet Russia wished to discredit Stalin.[/QUOTE] Personally, I think those should be added in death tolls. It was a direct result of governments attempting to do something, and despite deaths occurring, they continued. I still think his claim is ridiculous that the real death tolls are being hidden.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36767173]Like I said, Soviet Union is hiding the real death tolls. It's not.[/QUOTE] So you're saying that The Soviet Union killed approx. 60-70% of it's own entire population? Do you have any idea of how ridiculous of an arguement that is? He is right, it's closer to 8 million people. If you took China into that equation, then yes, it would rise several digits more, but for the Soviet Union itself it's not nearly that amount.
[QUOTE=Conscript;36771004]That ukrainian nationalist myth? No serious historian, except for cold war sensationalists like robert conquest, give a fuck about it.[/quote] The funny part is that the Russian government acknowledges that the famine was forced. They won't admit to genocide, and that part is debatable, but denying the famine outright is ludicrous. [quote]This is debated to hell and back whose at fault because of the suspicious circumstances and timing of it, but to be honest I don't have any sympathy for polish officers who served a fascist government.[/quote] Name one source that debates the legitimacy of the Katyn massacre. Again, even the Russian government admits it. It isn't even up for debate. Not not every Polish officer was a fascist. They were defending their country from a two sided attack from the Russian and Germans. I guess you have no sympathy for any German officers either, because they server a fascist government. And you could say the same about any Soviet officers who died, as the Soviet government during World War 2 (you'll probably call it the Great Patriotic War) was extremely fascist in nature. [quote]There were rapes, and the offenders were shot by their officers, but murders? No, at least not on any similar scale. I don't know why this would even be a reason to 'disown' the USSR or ban the flag.[/quote] Why would the officers shoot the rapists when the officers were rapists themselves? [quote]This isn't to mention the endless amount of nazi crimes committed against soviet civilians during their invasion.[/quote] Tu quoque [quote]LOL. no you're not.[/QUOTE] If you bothered to comprehend his post, he was giving a hypothetical example.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36765932]I know, right? And that's my point. Banning everything people find offensive would be a mess. But if they're only going to ban specific offensive things, then don't even bother. You either ban all (Nazism, Soviet related things, Americanism, etc.) "offensive" things or don't ban all of them. Banning just Nazism and leaving other offensive beliefs is too fucking dumb.[/QUOTE] exactly. That's why us Americans don't ban any hate speech. And how is it okay for European countries to ban Nazi sympathizing? do you not have a right to free speech?
[QUOTE=Marbalo;36780953]You should give this a read. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany#Controversy_in_Russia[/url] Soviet rape of Germany is often blown [I]way [/I]out of proportion. To assume every single Soviet soldier was a rapist is downright disrespectful, in the same way I could claim every American marine is a barbaric bloodthirsty rapist who fights for [del]oil[/del] freedom, or something equally retarded.[/QUOTE] When did I assume every single Soviet soldier was a rapist? And do you know what else is downright disrespectful? [I]Downplaying[/I] the rapes and murders that were committed by the Soviet armies.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36779955]hardly anyone in the west cares about holodomor, the irish potato famine, or the genocide of american natives. I mean people know about them but they don't provoke the visceral "ick" reaction that the mention of gaschambers does[/QUOTE] The thing is, the holodomor and the irish potato famine are not really regarded as genocide. The thing about the holocaust was the nature of the genocide that was something completely inexperienced before. The horrors of both the world wars completely changed [I]everything[/I] in the west, from society, history, culture and politics. Abattoirs for thinking meat. You really can't overstate the importance it has had. It has importance in western society, when talking to westerners. If you go to the far east, they don't really give a damn about it because it's so distant and irrelevant to them. Hence you can find Hitler themed cafe and they don't understand what the fuss is about. Yet they know bitterly about Pol Pot and the killing fields or the Japanese occupation of China.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;36781128]Im not downplaying anything. Im arguing for historic accuracy. And do you seriously think; Isnt directly implying bogus generalizations?[/QUOTE] Sorry, it was over the top to say that. I was just trying to respond to Conscripts ridiculous downplaying of Soviet rapes and murders.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;36779194]You couldnt be more biased (and flat out wrong) if you tried. Refer to previous posts in this thread to see why as I dont feel like regurgitating the same crap everytime.[/QUOTE] You're only saying that because i am pointing out there massive failures as a ideology and regime.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;36781559]No, Im saying that because what you said was wrong. Arguing ideology is one thing, but claiming the regime did things it has never done, or on a scale that you claim they did is dumb and sensationalist, as often is the case with people from the Baltic states. Listen, I know the Soviet Union mistreated both your country and probably your family to hell and back, and I get that, but that doesn't give you the right to twist history and make up facts. Im sure you will agree.[/QUOTE] So you never bothered to look at mass killing and call me out on speaking what they did ? Also nice going called Baltic people dumb ! Sure helps your case. Do you ever bother looking up information or do you just vomit bullshit to help your cause ?
[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;36781938]So you never bothered to look at mass killing and call me out on speaking what they did ? Also nice going called Baltic people dumb ! Sure helps your case. [B]Do you ever bother looking up information[/B] or do you just vomit bullshit to help your cause ?[/QUOTE] Do you? Or do you take the sensationalist information that is common throughout your country, instead of looking at solid data? [editline]15th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Teddybeer;36782146]Most of the time its used for Communism in general, as in throwing the deaths of country's like China (40 mill) on the big pile not only the Soviet Union. He is not pulling it out of his as, he is just using the wrong numbers.[/QUOTE] You can clearly see his means the 700 million figure for the USSR alone.
[QUOTE=Beafman;36782211]Do you? Or do you take the sensationalist information that is common throughout your country, instead of looking at solid data?[/QUOTE] Alright, let's begin the smackdown. 1st - Russian famine of 1921 ( [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921[/url] ) François Furet estimated there were 5 million deaths in the famine 2nd - Soviet famine of 1932–1933 ( [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%931933[/url] ) Estimate of [B]5.5 to 6.5 million deaths[/B] 3rd - Huge batch of soviet War crimes from 1919 to 1991. ( [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes[/url]) Counting thousands of innocent lives taken because of the regime. 4th - Soviet union treating there PoW by sending them to die and prison camps ( [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union[/url] ) Of the 5.7 million Soviet prisoners of war captured by the Germans, 3.5 million had died while in German captivity by the end of the war.The survivors on their return to the USSR [B]were treated as traitors[/B].Over 1.5 million [B]surviving Red Army soldiers imprisoned by the Germans were sent to the Gulag. [/B] 5th - Stalin's paranoid killings aka the GREAT PURGE ! ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge) The Great Purge was a series of campaigns of political repression and murder in the Soviet Union orchestrated by Joseph Stalin from 1937 to 1938.It involved a large-scale purge of the Communist Party and government officials, repression of peasants, Red Army leadership, and the persecution of unaffiliated persons, characterized by widespread police surveillance, widespread suspicion of "saboteurs", imprisonment, and arbitrary executions. 6th - Mass killing of army officers ( [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD_prisoner_massacres[/url] ) The NKVD prisoner massacres were a series of mass executions committed by the Soviet NKVD against prisoners in Eastern Europe, primarily Poland, Ukraine, the Baltic states, Bessarabia and other parts of the Soviet Union from which the Red Army was withdrawing after the German invasion in 1941. Litene: On June 14, 1941, 120 Latvian Army officers were driven to the woods in the belief they were on a training mission. On arrival they were disarmed, tied up and executed by the NKVD. 7th - Supression of the Hungarian revolution of 1956 ( [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956[/url] ) The Hungarian Revolution or Uprising of 1956 (Hungarian: 1956-os forradalom or felkelés) was a spontaneous nationwide revolt against the government of the People's Republic of Hungary and its Soviet-imposed policies, lasting from 23 October until 10 November 1956. 8th - Lets not forget soviet censorship ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Soviet_Union[/url]) Not only did they exclude and kill certain people but they also limited freedom of knowledge, history, art and literature. 9th - Operation Priboi ( Mass deportation to Siberia [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Priboi[/url] ) Operation Priboi ("Coastal Surf") was the code name for the Soviet mass deportation from the Baltic states on March 25–28, 1949, called March deportation by Baltic historians. [B]Some 90,000 Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians, labeled as enemies of the people, were deported to inhospitable areas of the Soviet Union. [/B]It was one of the most complex deportation operations engineered by the Soviets in the Cold war era. Marbalo, try to tell me that that didn't exist and i made that shit up, fucking try to and this thread is more lockable then any other. This isn't mass debate, this is just a thread to easily point out the soviet funion being a complete useless wasteland of the damned. You can't debate anything, just try to be a apologist.There is no debate, because everything is saved to show off the soviet shithole.
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