Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time
432 replies, posted
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;45267026]I like both 2D and 3D Zelda games.[/QUOTE]
unacceptable. You have to make choice between one or the other or you're not a true zelda fan :v:
As someone who loves OOT and kinda likes SS, every complaint he made was valid. I can tell he put a lot of work into making sure of that. Especially complaints about the Zelda series in general (such as the "big glowing eye is the weak spot, use the dungeon item on it" formulaic shit)
Pretty much agree with all of it. 3D zeldas are too good at making stuff tedious
[QUOTE=Manibogi;45266558]Yeah try making an "intuitive" Capcom-style fighter with no tutorials, just let the players figure all the moves out by themselves. Sounds like fun to me![/SARCASM][/QUOTE]
Wonderful 101?
I haven't beaten it, but I'm really enjoying Skyward Sword so far. I think I'm 15 hours or so into it. The controls took a bit to get used to, but it was fine after that.
I agree with pretty much everything he said. In fact literally everything he brought up about 3D Zelda games is the reason I've never finished any of them (Except Majoras Mask).
I liked this.
This is fucking garbage.
Like OoT isn't even my favorite but he's so blatantly wrong about nearly everything, and the fact it opens with the mspaint levels of "I'm the cool handsome relaxed guy, the other argument is the fat screaming nerd" strawman
[QUOTE=cdr248;45267329]Wonderful 101?[/QUOTE] As much as I love 101, the game did tell you how to do a lot of things.
[QUOTE=Sift;45267432]This is fucking garbage.
Like OoT isn't even my favorite but he's so blatantly wrong about nearly everything, and the fact it opens with the mspaint levels of "I'm the cool handsome relaxed guy, the other argument is the fat screaming nerd" strawman[/QUOTE]
It's hardly a straw man where there's no argument, he's making a joke about the backlash he knew he was going to get and is currently getting.
[QUOTE=Sift;45267432]This is fucking garbage.
Like OoT isn't even my favorite but he's so blatantly wrong about nearly everything, and [B]the fact it opens with the mspaint levels of "I'm the cool handsome relaxed guy, the other argument is the fat screaming nerd" strawman[/B][/QUOTE]
uh no he wasnt
he was making fun of people who bitch at him without seeing his argument. a common thing on the internet.
at the end of the video that character makes a return basically saying "i'm gunna say what i hate about your argument" and ego goes "ok cool go for it"
Some interesting points but he could stand to sound 200% less petulant and douchey
[QUOTE=Wii60;45267482]uh no he wasnt
he was making fun of people who bitch at him without seeing his argument. a common thing on the internet.
at the end of the video that character makes a return basically saying "i'm gunna say what i hate about your argument" and ego goes "ok cool go for it"[/QUOTE]
That's usually the thought process of the people who make those comics you realize that right. To show "Psh I'm above all of this it's water off my back look how cool I am."
Like you have to be a fanboy if you think just because Ego does it makes it a hilarious joke.
[img]http://www.shmorky.com/comics/big20060619.gif[/img]
Literally this.
[QUOTE=Sift;45267501]That's usually the thought process of the people who make those comics you realize that right. To show "Psh I'm above all of this it's water off my back look how cool I am."
Like you have to be a fanboy if you think just because Ego does it makes it a hilarious joke.[/QUOTE]
Exactly zero times did he ever act like he was above anyone during that scene, it was literally "lol i'm gonna talk shit about your video" and in return "okay cool, do it, just be sure to watch it first."
You're pulling this entirely out of your ass.
I remember that stream that Arin did of Fire Temple SPECIFICALLY for this video a long time ago. And with seeing that, a lot of this rant seems to come from him just not being any good at the game.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;45267083]As someone who loves OOT and kinda likes SS, every complaint he made was valid. I can tell he put a lot of work into making sure of that. Especially complaints about the Zelda series in general (such as the "big glowing eye is the weak spot, use the dungeon item on it" formulaic shit)[/QUOTE]
I have to disagree. Some of his complaints are absolutely valid, most of them have partial validity, and a few of them are kinda bullshit.
Many of his points are CLEARLY the result of is unwillingness to adapt or think.
First off: The whole adventuring-part rant can also be applied to A Link to the Past. The wolrd is just as closed down. You need several items like Bombs, the Hammer, the Mirror to a certain extend, and the Gauntlets to traverse the overworld, just as you need Bombs, the Hookshot....... in OoT
Though he is right on that some of the roadblocks in OoT (the Mail for the Guard infront of Death Mountain for example) is a very unelegant solution.
Now the part about the items against bosses was kinda bullshit. While he is right that you can get some optional items against bosses in A Link to the Past, this is in not really helpful and in absolutely no way required to beat them. You can run through the game without getting off the 8 Dungeon Path item wise. Also some of the bosses in ALTTP also require the use of the Dungeon Item on them like the Mask Dragon required the Hammer to beat, the out in order path for older items against newer bosses was purely optional and not required.
He is right with the obvious Boss Design in Ocarina of Time though, they are obviously designed to incorporate the Dungeon Item into the fight and I understand if some people feel kinda insulted by that I guess.
Now lets tackle a typical Arin: The Fighting. Here Arin simply IGNORES the Fact of how well Items are incorporated into the regular fighting. I bet he never even equipped a single Deku Nut after he got to Adult Link.
The Wolves require you to wait? Throw a friggin Deku Nut and Jump Attack. Oh the Skeleton Knights require you to wait? Friggin Deku Nut or Hookshot them and Jump Attack.
Spiders want you to wait for them to torn around? Send a friggin Arrow through the Head, or simply Hook Shot them if you're a cheap bastard.
Yet funnily enough he praises the ONLY Enemy where items are no use during the Stage 1 Iron Knuckle.
As this is getting way too long already I try to finish this.
GameGrumps Windwaker clearly showed that Arins brain simply does not WORK for 3D games, like at ALL. Also go watch one of his recording sessions... He cries about the Puzzles here, yet he lacks the observational abilites to get through the Fire Temple, which actually is pretty linear.
By the way, have you looked at his health meter during the Fire Temple? He has 6 hearts, though he encountered 4 bosses so far in the game, so he FORGOT to pick up one of the Heart Containers... HE FORGOT... And now I have to listen to him ranting about the game? The Video wasnt that bad actually. I'm happy he didn't critizise the game, and put up more of a rant, because for real critique he kinda lacked substance...
But of course Mr Hanson perfectly shielded himself from this kind of criticism by ridiculing critics of his opinion even during his rant. I don't like your opinion not because its unpopular, but because it lacks substance!
Sorry for the TLDR.
I was really hoping for Aaron to pick on stronger points than just "UGH! Who has time for exposition?" and the whole items against bosses ordeal.
I didn't like how he always described the delay in getting the the chest in ALTTP as "The most suspenseful thing ever" wheras anything similar in any other game is apparently bullshit.
Aside from that I enjoyed the video; you can really see how Jon has influenced him in his style.
his problem with OOT mostly sounded like "I don't care about the story so neither should you", That's not a valid argument, I liked the story and didn't find it annoying.
as a point the first zelda I played was a link to the past's gba port and it's my favorite zelda, but he's still wrong about OOT.
What I love is that he wants the game to be this clearly focused completely gameplay driven test of skill and prowess, but he's so completely fucking terrible at those kinds of games that every time he plays games like that he ends up getting angry and calling them badly designed.
like, the spinny blades aren't bullshit. If you see a car coming down the street you don't run out after your soccer ball or whatever the moment you turn your head. You make a note that there's a fucking car there, it's called environmental awareness.
OOT isn't perfect but jesus christ half of these complaints are just "WHY ARE THERE THINGS IN THIS GAME I DON'T LIKE???" and "THIS IS BULLSHIT ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY"
It kind of cracks me up that he was complaining about the game telling you where to go, but almost every other lets play he does usually features "WHERE DO I GO" either from the game itself not telling him or him just ignoring it in general. The majority of his criticisms were pretty bullshit, I haven't even beaten the game nor am I a Zelda fanboy and even I can see that.
Also this might come off as cynical, but I think this is basically Ego's floundering attempts to climb back into relevancy. His rap videos he doesn't do the animation, it's obvious he doesn't really enjoy game grumps anymore, and his animations have lost their edge. We're basically looking at someone who's using this kind of review and opinion just to get attention, he even admits it in the video " I'm gonna get fuckin' crucified " and that's exactly what he wants.
[QUOTE=DeVotchKa;45266630]Is the stupid Arin bashing really necessary?
Personally, i thought this video was good, i think most (don't get me wrong, not all) points he made were valid. OoT DOES make you wait a lot without really having a purpose to it, there's a lot of length padding for absolutely no reason. On the other hand, it can be excused to a point because it was the first 3D Zelda and was more story focused than ever. It was an experiment and it did lose some of the elements that made the early Zelda games so amazing, things that were remedied in later Zeldas.
And while it's not really entirely excusable for him to be bad at games, consider that he grew up mostly playing NES and SNES games, as did Jon and Danny, and still continues to do so to this day. Modern games are just kind of awkward to them, much how old SNES games can be frustrating to modern gamers, not to mention the fact that they have to hype them selves up for super long gaming session while commentating and dreading the shitty backlash they're going to get from any sub-par performance.
I'll be the first to admit Arin is retarded and has gotten increasingly retarded but honestly, to an extent, some of it is excused by actually seeing what he has to go through.
[editline] July 1 2014 [/editline]
Also it took him like a fucking year and a half or something ridiculous to make this, it's gonna get jumbled and rehashed a lot.[/QUOTE]
padding was key in old videogames to extend their life. OOT was 60$ at launch which was 84$ in 1998 money approximately. It was nearly first of it's genre and exceeded at story telling and neat cutscenes. The excuse of growing up in NES and SNES times is stupid since its observation and problem solving skills. Nothing has really changed since that era other than fixing the massive annoyances in old game (which were due to padding it out with mostly terrible mechanics or map design). If you saw a modern platformer with no save points and insane pixel accuracy jumping everyone would be bitching up a storm. Old games very VERY rarely age well unless its stylized and the gameplay is fair.
I grew up in the late NES and SNES era (turbographics too) but I don't sit there and be fucking angry at the game over cutscenes or avoid hints then bitch about the game not helping me.
if you want an actual critique that isn't mired in repetitive non-humor that's about as long and way more well researched, try this
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o908SWJ8ulc[/media]
he also has a video that explains precisely what the issues were with SS. hint; it has nothing to do with the uncomfortably ironic "you just don't think you have to put in any effort or ever get better!" rant arin vomited out
[QUOTE=Why485;45266799]Snip!~[/QUOTE]
george weidman is literally my favourite games person
thank you
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45267823]if you want an actual critique that isn't mired in repetitive non-humor that's about as long and way more well researched, try this
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o908SWJ8ulc[/media]
he also has a video that explains precisely what the issues were with SS. hint; it has nothing to do with the uncomfortably ironic "you just don't think you have to put in any effort or ever get better!" rant arin vomited out[/QUOTE]
I love all reviews from him but I haven't watched some because of not playing the games, including all the Zelda ones, I watched the sequelitis obviously because as if ego is going to give storyline spoilers.
How spoilery are this guy's Zelda videos?
[QUOTE=Captain;45267446]As much as I love 101, the game did tell you how to do a lot of things.[/QUOTE]
Then what about MGS:R
Big effortpost just in general, I apologize in advance as I'm fully aware my grammar and whatnot are atrocious.
[b]The Speed of the Game[/b]
In the video Ego talks about how the game is slower and thus bad, how enemies stop you and now engage you in meaningful combat but it's slower while the only good enemy types are Iron Knuckles. He argues the fact that you can run in and brainlessly mash away at the IK are what make them good characters, but this is just wrong.
Early on in the Deku Tree you're introduced to two enemies mostly, the little baby Ghoma, Deku Baba's, and the Skulltala's. For the first two you can rush in and clear them out without much thought (unless you're worried about getting hit which then turns into a game of risk vs reward on if you want to take the shot of killing it before it hurts you)
Skulltala's are the first enemy that you come across however that you must wait to attack. You can do anything you want at the start of the game and nothing will work on it. You can hit it with your sword and nothing happens except it swings around and counters, instead you must wait for it to spin around and then you can strike it to it's back. Congrats. This is a smart tutorial akin to what Ego himself compared Megaman X with in "show don't tell".
Later in the game you can find numerous enemies and mow through them with no problem- until you hit one that can block. This is when you're supposed to remember the last enemy you fought and be like "oh I remember! This is a natural evolution of that enemy type!" and put it into place. Later parts in the game (Like the Shadow Temple) kick this up in a attempt to make it feel like the enemies are getting just as good as you- that not everything is just mindless fodder. You come to expect that "this tough looking guy is going to match me I need to have a smart fight with him."
This game design is why I feel the Iron Knuckles he praises works as well as it does. This enemy shows that it doesn't care about your puny attacks, it doesn't NEED to defend against you. This along with the imposing look and heavy "feel" is enough to put players on edge and why it's such a good miniboss. If every enemy in the game allowed you to run up and swipe the sword a few times before moving on a lot of this effect would be lost and he'd just be "guy who hits hard". It would devalue alot of the enemies in similar ways including said bosses.
[b]Traps[/b]
In the video Egoraptor gets hung up on the swinging spike traps which... once again paints him as a child with trouble paying attention to things. Noted in the video you never see him enter the room and then walk out and get hit, in every clip he uses he's already in the room getting blindsided. This is his fault, not the games.
When you enter a room Ocarina of Time is good about always putting you out of harms way, that way the player can soak in what dangers the room is throwing at them and letting them formulate what the "puzzle" of the room is. If the problem is simply a strong enemy the enemy is always placed far enough away so that the player can address the problem and formulate a plan quick enough.
In this case, it's the sliding spike puzzles. In no game in the entire series does it just drop you in the middle of ones path and let you soak up damage. You can stand at the entrance and watch how it moves and put that into use, I can't explain it any better that if you rush into the middle of the room and get hit then it's no-one's fault but your own. There's always a sound que or a warning of some kind so you're never caught off guard. This is just bad play.
[b]Loading and Puzzle Complete sounds[/b]
God I hope Ego never makes a game if he's this idiotic towards simple things.
In a 3D world with multiple levels and multiple areas it's important that the player knows what they did or didn't achieve. If I come to a barred door and need to open it but to do so I have to put the door out of my view and solve a problem elsewhere. The puzzle complete sound is to let me know that I did what the game wanted and that door is now open that way I don't have to run back to check on it after every little thing.
This is game design, I can imagine a lot of people getting furious about the game if this touch hadn't been included, just imagine for a second if the water temple gave even LESS help in letting the player know that they were making progress. It's important!!
The complaint about songs is also really dumb! It's super [b]SUPER[/b] dumb! It's a story element which to some isn't good enough, but being asked "are you sure" isn't put there to make the player frustrated or waste time, it's to make sure you don't go "oh shit whoops played the wrong song now I have to load a entire different area and try again."
He complains about the tiny 2 second teleporting animation as well and I can't even begin to point at how nitpicky and useless of a argument that is. Does he expect link to just pop out of existence and appear wherever with no special effects or anything? It's complaining for the sake of complaining.
[b]The Story[/b]
This is the most asinine thing and I'm only putting it here because I feel like I should have something that supports the rest of the argument.
The game tells the player where to go because the world itself is a thousand times bigger then the few screens of a NES cartridge and more complicated then a SNES cart could hope to handle. It doesn't do it to belittle the player it tells them where to go because this was a early pioneer of the genre and it worked so well it proceeded to be in further games.
If you think the game telling you "hey death mountain is a thing" undermines the player and makes them any less of a hero then you have serious problems. His entire stance on this is so pointless and banal that it further enforces the point that he has serious problems paying attention and I firmly believe that if it wasn't included he'd be complaining that the game gives no direction on what to do and "things are too obtuse" or "nothing carries any weight because I don't know what anything is."
Skyward Sword however is taking it to far and one of the reasons that it's a bad game. I can agree with that, and Navi is just a reminder for the player. They changed it's tone in Majora's Mask and counterpointing Ego a LOT of people Love Tatl and Tale. People just found the noise annoying, not the fact that you could read tips.
Just... I can go on with this video, it's absolute garbage and just further proves that Egorapter should just stick to Game Grumps. Where I would praise his Megaman videos in the past this just destroys all credibility that he had left.
There's a difference between saying "I prefer 2D zeldas, they feel faster and therefor more fun to me." and "The 3D zeldas SUCK because they aren't 2D!" and Ego clearly didn't know the difference at all, I don't think less of people who dislike OoT, or any of the later 3D games but to imply they have even half the problems Ego tries to stick to them is factually wrong on all fronts.
Youtube User MatthewMatosis did a series on the series as a whole examining everything with a critical eye and it's what Ego DREAMS he could do. If you want a actual review or critique with thought behind it that doesn't contridict itself every step of a way give it a watch.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o908SWJ8ulc[/media]
Edit: Go figure someone posted the video while I was typing this all up :I
[QUOTE=Chamango;45267850]I love all reviews from him but I haven't watched some because of not playing the games, including all the Zelda ones, I watched the sequelitis obviously because as if ego is going to give storyline spoilers.
How spoilery are this guy's Zelda videos?[/QUOTE] I believe at the start of almost all his videos, he says that they are pretty spoil heavy. I've seen all the Zelda ones and they do spoil a lot of the games.
[QUOTE=cdr248;45267859]Then what about MGS:R[/QUOTE] Probably not as much as 101, but the Codex guys still give you heads up on how to fight some of the bosses and enemies.[sp]Also the Ray fight is kind of a tutorial with Boris telling you what to do to beat Ray.[/sp]
All the issues in Ocarina of Time that he went over weren't issues with the game, it's his own traits that conflicted with the game.
He's impatient, and that's damn obvious. He nit picked at every little time you weren't controlling Link, and opportunities in gameplay where you had to wait. Which is surprising, because I thought he was rather fond of the Metal Gear Solid series, which is basically based all around patience and can have really long cutscenes that build the story.
He also overly simplified how you get items in LttP versus OoT. LttP, you got a key and unlocked a chest. He says the build up was going back to the chest and unlocking it, but... That doesn't feel like build up. In fact, it feels like tedious back tracking, something he'd hate. In what would be his own words: WALKING, WALKING, SO MUCH WALKING IN THIS GAME, I DON'T WANT TO WALK TO THE CHEST, I ALREADY EARNED THE KEY. In Ocarina of Time, there was a mini-boss before you got the item, and he just said "defeat some enemies." It was no simple keese or even a stalfos, but an actual boss made for that very goal. Then you felt like you [I]earned[/I] that item. It was worse in Link Between Worlds. You walked in, gave rupees, and bought the item. That [I]severely[/I] cheapens the value of the items, feeling more like random tools of the game.
Also, that bit about Skyward Sword's bomb rolling? ...What was that? I don't understand what point he was trying to make. Did he have a hard time with them, or...?
Either way, I feel like it's Arin's impatience that shaped his opinion on Ocarina of Time.
[QUOTE=Chamango;45267850]I love all reviews from him but I haven't watched some because of not playing the games, including all the Zelda ones, I watched the sequelitis obviously because as if ego is going to give storyline spoilers.
How spoilery are this guy's Zelda videos?[/QUOTE]
If you don't want spoilers, don't watch it. Though honestly you've probably absorbed most of the big twists in OOT through osmosis by now.
go play majora's mask
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;45267944]All the issues in Ocarina of Time that he went over weren't issues with the game, it's his own traits that conflicted with the game.
He's impatient, and that's damn obvious. He nit picked at every little time you weren't controlling Link, and opportunities in gameplay where you had to wait. Which is surprising, because I thought he was rather fond of the Metal Gear Solid series, which is basically based all around patience and can have really long cutscenes that build the story.
He also overly simplified how you get items in LttP versus OoT. LttP, you got a key and unlocked a chest. He says the build up was going back to the chest and unlocking it, but... That doesn't feel like build up. In fact, it feels like tedious back tracking, something he'd hate. In what would be his own words: WALKING, WALKING, SO MUCH WALKING IN THIS GAME, I DON'T WANT TO WALK TO THE CHEST, I ALREADY EARNED THE KEY. In Ocarina of Time, there was a mini-boss before you got the item, and he just said "defeat some enemies." It was no simple keese or even a stalfos, but an actual boss made for that very goal. Then you felt like you [I]earned[/I] that item. It was worse in Link Between Worlds. You walked in, gave rupees, and bought the item. That [I]severely[/I] cheapens the value of the items, feeling more like random tools of the game.
Also, that bit about Skyward Sword's bomb rolling? ...What was that? I don't understand what point he was trying to make. Did he have a hard time with them, or...?
Either way, I feel like it's Arin's impatience that shaped his opinion on Ocarina of Time.[/QUOTE]
It was him trying to be wacky and funny that way kids agree with him. That's literally it.
I dunno, I just consider his opinion and put it into my own. I don't see the need to call him a "fucking retard" and "dysfuctional attention-seeker" like some people on this thread are doing. His opinion is obviously not a popular one - and I'm gonna be honest, I don't like having to wait for the story to get in the way either. Some things I disagreed with, some things I didn't.
It's very much unfair to use this video as reasons to horrifically bash on the guy because his opinion is different from yours band make 3+ posts about how much of a loser he is because of it. Like he says, you should just consider the video and possibly include it as a secondary opinion - not everything about these games HAS to be positive.
[quote]Long story short, Arin's opinions on games can always be disregarded on the grounds that he's a fucking idiot.[/quote]
Like, come [I]on[/I]. It's an entertainment video directed at a younger audience then you, hes doing this on purpose. (Yes, you watched egoraptor when you were young, too.)
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