• Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time
    432 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45272288]He also complains about OoT telling you too much and not letting you explore as much, like his example with death mountain, except ALTTP DOES THE SAME SHIT, hell even more blatantly since it puts map markers everywhere. OoT is not as linear as people think, you can do the dungeons in a wide variety of orders aside from forest/shadow(Forest is first, shadow is unlocked later) all that you need are the key items from the dungeon and you can leave and do something else.[/QUOTE] To add onto this point, the child dungeons must be done in order (Deku Tree, Death Mountain, Jabu Jabu) but adult dungeons can be done out of order to an extent. Forest Temple, Fire Temple, and Water Temple are all available once you get the hookshot shortly after becoming adult, and can be done in any order. Once those three are done, you can do Shadow Temple and Spirit Temple in any order. The Bottom of the Well mini-dungeon is available as soon as you beat the first adult dungeon, and the Ice Cavern mini-dungeon is available as soon as you're adult (and is a prerequisite for the Water Temple). So OoT is not as linear as ALttP which are numbered in order for you on a map. The only way you'd know where to go is because of Navi hinting at where to go next. [editline]2nd July 2014[/editline] The most annoying thing about the video is how he speaks for all video gamers, and how gamers hate what he hates when most of his points are subjective or because he's terrible at playing.
I do agree with his sitting and waiting stuff with the combat. Literally the most infuriating thing in a game with Z-targeting is shield-bearing enemies. I haven't played much of the Zelda series, but in Dark Souls 2, my least favorite boss is the Ruin Sentinels. It's not becaue they make you fight 2/3 at once, it's not because they're strong and hit hard, no, it's because they have shields. I absolutely cannot fucking stand having to just stare at and wait for the enemy to stop blocking and walking backward before I can hit them. At least with the normal shield-bearing enemies in DS2, you can guard break them, but if you have a boss that can block, it's hella annoying.
[QUOTE=Cuon Alpinus;45273335]I do agree with his sitting and waiting stuff with the combat. Literally the most infuriating thing in a game with Z-targeting is shield-bearing enemies. I haven't played much of the Zelda series, but in Dark Souls 2, my least favorite boss is the Ruin Sentinels. It's not becaue they make you fight 2/3 at once, it's not because they're strong and hit hard, no, it's because they have shields. I absolutely cannot fucking stand having to just stare at and wait for the enemy to stop blocking and walking backward before I can hit them. At least with the normal shield-bearing enemies in DS2, you can guard break them, but if you have a boss that can block, it's hella annoying.[/QUOTE] You might like Twilght Princess then or WW, they arguably have the best combat in any Zelda and have very little to no waiting just because of the items you can use and attacks. Zelda games have hardly any combat waiting, its general just people being bad and not utilizing all the items at your disposal. OoT is probably the slowest of all the 3D ones, even MM is fast fighting with mask forms. So I dont really understand this combat waiting shit, its so nitpicking and never an actual problem the more im thinking about it. The most waiting you do is in the fucking first dungeon, which is pretty much the tutorial and you have no items. If anything, the only enemy that you fight a lot and does have waiting is the Stalfos. The Clams are the only other ones but they are very sparse.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45273422]You might like Twilght Princess then or WW, they arguably have the best combat in any Zelda and have very little to no waiting just because of the items you can use and attacks. Zelda games have hardly any combat waiting, its general just people being bad and not utilizing all the items at your disposal. OoT is probably the slowest of all the 3D ones, even MM is fast fighting with mask forms. So I dont really understand this combat waiting shit, its so nitpicking and never an actual problem the more im thinking about it. The most waiting you do is in the fucking first dungeon, which is pretty much the tutorial and you have no items. If anything, the only enemy that you fight a lot and does have waiting is the Stalfos. The Clams are the only other ones but they are very sparse.[/QUOTE] I meant more that I agree with how annoying it is. The Wind Waker is the only Zelda game I've put any real time into, and I absolutely loved it.
I don't know; I don't agree with all his arguments, but at the same time I think it was well presented and I could see why Arin would prefer the older games. More or less it boils down to Arin not liking modern game design. While he was nitpicking for points, I did find myself nodding my head to a few of them.
[QUOTE=Cuon Alpinus;45273335]I do agree with his sitting and waiting stuff with the combat. Literally the most infuriating thing in a game with Z-targeting is shield-bearing enemies. I haven't played much of the Zelda series, but in Dark Souls 2, my least favorite boss is the Ruin Sentinels. It's not becaue they make you fight 2/3 at once, it's not because they're strong and hit hard, no, it's because they have shields. I absolutely cannot fucking stand having to just stare at and wait for the enemy to stop blocking and walking backward before I can hit them. At least with the normal shield-bearing enemies in DS2, you can guard break them, but if you have a boss that can block, it's hella annoying.[/QUOTE] Arin didn't bring up the fact that there are alternate ways to kill enemies or expose their weaknesses (because he probably didn't even bother experimenting) in Ocarina of Time. Waiting for a Skulltula to expose its belly to you? Shoot it on either side with an arrow and it dies immediately. Stalfos keeps strafing around you with its shield up? Stun it with a Deku Nut and follow up with a jump attack. Keese keep flying around and staying out of sword's reach? Target them and use the slingshot, the bow, the hookshot, the boomerang, or even Din's Fire. There are so many ways you can kill an enemy in a Zelda game, and comparing it to something like Dark Souls is like saying Mario Kart has the exact same gameplay mechanics as Assassin's Creed.
As someone who was never really a Nintendo kid, I started playing OoT back at the end of May. Last time I played it was the beginning of June. I don't know if it's just that they're not my type of game, but I agreed with quite a few of Ego's points. Ocarina just felt so guided in story and slow during combat, which is not what I enjoyed about Zelda games. The chests and dialogue points were a bit overboard, but combat just isn't fun to me in Ocarina. Z-Targeting certainly made things easier, but it didn't make it more entertaining. To a lot of people in this thread I'm probably just crying "but muh link's awakening," but I can't help but feel that the original NES/SNES/game boy games were pulled off so much better.
I like how he plugged the Game Grumps playthrough of Wind Waker after the video, as if to say "hey, do you want several hours of proof that I have no idea what I'm talking about and that I am the least qualified person to critique video games ever? Check out my playthrough of one of the easiest games ever made! I'm terrible at it because I have no basic reading comprehension!" Also, something I noticed: All of the footage of him as Adult Link has him wearing the hover boots in areas where they were not necessary. I wouldn't be shocked if he instantly equipped the boots without reading the description and then never removed them. Man, basically every criticism Arin comes up with in this video and several of his Game Grumps videos can be countered with the argument "I had no trouble with this when I was a child." I was fucking FOUR when I beat Ocarina of Time. Arin's dumber than I was when I was four years old.
Me from page 2 again, yo. So one more thing that got discussed here were those spiky things, so I want add a little bit to that. As stated by others, you never run into these spikes unprepared, you always see them when entering the room [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/gZkcHjk.png[/IMG] Heres the Spike Arin showed in the Video. What you CAN'T see on the picture is the sound the spikes make. Every Full rotation they do they make a metallic sound SHRING so even without actively looking at them you get a feeling for their speed, you can run around the room knowing where they are without even looking at these things, thanks to their sound. Now when I said you never encounter them unprepared, I was lying. The first time you see those spikes is in Dodongos Cavern where you first JUMP OVER one of them and you clearly see it below you, but your in safety after the jump. After the Jump Navi pops up [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/dnpwJk5.png[/IMG] (sorry for the German) She says: Yo dude look around Corners with Z. This little moment teaches you a great deal about how Z Targeting is not just for combat but simply as a tool to position the camera behind you and explore the room from the safety [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Opy6Q8y.png[/IMG] See? This corner is safe :D Well to quote Arin now: "If it doesn't work, you change it" where he refered to the Spikes in a 3D environment. There is a passage in the Fire Temple where you encounter something simmilar, the Rolling Rock Maze [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/1Vrc6lv.png[/IMG] Standing and Z-Targetting here would not work because these rocks roll pretty much exactly at your walking speed, but guess what? [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/jRdWeUK.png[/IMG] The game changes perspective to Top Down! Friggin Miracle. Also now as a little Bonus. The stupid Bomb Arin couldn't throw in the Fire Temple? [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/AsuJUxF.png[/IMG] You can simply drop it down and it hits the Target perfectly. This right here is what people mean when they say Arin is too stupid to play 3D Games. He has no awareness of his surroundings at all. And it's not his fault. I know people like him having similar problems. Im studying Computer Science in Media right now, and when we had a Course in 3D Animation, some people simply couldn't navigate Cinema 4D correctly. Some peoples brains are simply not that good in dealing with virtual 3D Space. I wanted to post some videos about the Combat stuff I was talking about on Page 2, but I'm kinda too lazy to upload videos right now... Oh and for everyone wondering: No I did not replay OoT solely to prove that Arin is "wrong". I'm currently marathoning through all the Zelda games and recorded the footage, so OoT is still very present in my head.
The points are valid but it's like he's having an argument with you; the other sequelitis videos he's calmly explaining his points and it's actually interesting to listen to, plus it's funnier because he's not overdoing it Don't even want to jump on the hate bandwagon but can't listen to half an hour of ranting that 15 minutes in doesn't really seem to be going anywhere
[QUOTE=The Calzone;45274112]I like how he plugged the Game Grumps playthrough of Wind Waker after the video, as if to say "hey, do you want several hours of proof that I have no idea what I'm talking about and that I am the least qualified person to critique video games ever? Check out my playthrough of one of the easiest games ever made! I'm terrible at it because I have no basic reading comprehension!" Also, something I noticed: All of the footage of him as Adult Link has him wearing the hover boots in areas where they were not necessary. I wouldn't be shocked if he instantly equipped the boots without reading the description and then never removed them. Man, basically every criticism Arin comes up with in this video and several of his Game Grumps videos can be countered with the argument "I had no trouble with this when I was a child." I was fucking FOUR when I beat Ocarina of Time. Arin's dumber than I was when I was four years old.[/QUOTE] "You're just bad!" is never a good counter argument imo. Why is he bad? What does that mean? Why is that such a terrible thing? I think he's "bad" because this style of game design doesn't resonate with him(which is perfectly reasonable), and his complaints about OOT are based on his personal experience with the game and what frustrated him. I don't think he understands that enough, though, and when he complains about these things he not only doesn't consider other perspectives enough but criticizes the GAME ITSELF for not spelling things out for him in the way that HE likes. It's okay for him to be bad at OOT, why would he be good at a game that he doesn't enjoy? The problem isn't that he's bad it's that he doesn't understand WHY he's bad and he's trying to pin it on the game's design and not acknowledge that this game simply isn't for him.
[quote]Also, something I noticed: All of the footage of him as Adult Link has him wearing the hover boots in areas where they were not necessary.[/quote] For me, the lack of traction was made up for by the easier jumps and the loss of the risk of falling off a ledge, so I always kept hover boots on. I don't see the problem.
this series was better before we saw him actually play games on GG, cause I think to do a video like this you should actually know how to play games. cause most of his problems are not being able to play it well, I beat it when I was 10 cause i only got an n64 then but I had no problems with it.
Watching this gave me more perspective about his other Sequelitis videos. He was right for the wrong reasons.
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;45274705]Watching this gave me more perspective about his other Sequelitis videos. He was right for the wrong reasons.[/QUOTE] I really think he likes the megaman games not because of clever level design and simple, enjoyable mechanics in itself but because the simplicity of these mechanics and cleverness of the level design makes him feel like he's really good and clever at video games when in reality he just likes playing the games that require his attention the least.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;45274652]For me, the lack of traction was made up for by the easier jumps and the loss of the risk of falling off a ledge, so I always kept hover boots on. I don't see the problem.[/QUOTE] For someone like Arin who evidently can't process more than two dimensions at a time or even remember/pay attention to half of the things that the game teaches him, it wouldn't come to any surprise if he thought that Adult Link was stuck wearing the hover boots forever and couldn't adapt to how slippery it made movement.
I still can't get over his statement back when they were playing ALttP that he genuinely thought Z-targeting was complicated and 'hard'
Can't say I agree with this video. I don't like Arin's tone either. But you guys end up stooping to his level of obnoxiousness with some of these comments. Counter-arguments in a discussion is key. I've seen quite a few so far. But simply attacking Arin personally for not agreeing with his opinion makes you look just as bad as him.
[QUOTE=conan96;45275149]Can't say I agree with this video. I don't like Arin's tone either. But you guys end up stooping to his level of obnoxiousness with some of these comments. Counter-arguments in a discussion is key. I've seen quite a few so far. But simply attacking Arin personally for not agreeing with his opinion makes you look just as bad as him.[/QUOTE] I think there's actually quite a mild reaction to his video and a lot of people are giving good arguments instead of directly attacking him. That said, it's hard to give constructive arguments, when a lot of his points come frome the fact that the game is not suited for his taste of pace and storytelling in games. I believe that is Arins main problem with OoT.
[QUOTE=conan96;45275149]Can't say I agree with this video. I don't like Arin's tone either. But you guys end up stooping to his level of obnoxiousness with some of these comments. Counter-arguments in a discussion is key. I've seen quite a few so far. But simply attacking Arin personally for not agreeing with his opinion makes you look just as bad as him.[/QUOTE] It's hard to properly counter his arguments when he doesn't actually have arguments at all and is just ranting for 30 minutes about games being too hard for him, while not accepting that he's just not very good at video games.
I cant believe this is the same guy that made the Mega Man video. This was just "DAE HATE SKYWARD SWORD?!?!" pandering along with non existent complaints (like seriously, you can avoid the wait times on all of those enemies by using items except the stalfos) all while praising the older games for things they have and saying the new ones dont (like how its cool how the items can be used in all dungeons in abnormal ways... like in OoT) I really do think Arin has gone down hill.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp7f_nCKfFw[/media]
[QUOTE=Dermock;45275742]I cant believe this is the same guy that made the Mega Man video. This was just "DAE HATE SKYWARD SWORD?!?!" pandering along with non existent complaints (like seriously, you can avoid the wait times on all of those enemies by using items except the stalfos) all while praising the older games for things they have and saying the new ones dont (like how its cool how the items can be used in all dungeons in abnormal ways... like in OoT) I really do think Arin has gone down hill.[/QUOTE] Arin has definitely gone down hill. He needs a break or something because he just acts like a mindless child.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45275481]It's hard to properly counter his arguments when he doesn't actually have arguments at all and is just ranting for 30 minutes about games being too hard for him, while not accepting that he's just not very good at video games.[/QUOTE] This is what I think. I mean, I was fucking 8 when this game came out and I couldn't read in english. Still had no problem beating it.
[QUOTE=mark6789;45275925]Arin has definitely gone down hill. He needs a break or something because he just acts like a mindless child.[/QUOTE] Honestly it's not even that he's gone downhill and more that he's started to show himself. People knew jack shit about Egoraptor for quite a while, then at some point he started doing sequelitis and Game Grumps and then people found out he was pretty damn dislikeable.
[QUOTE=Sift;45275746] [/QUOTE] whats fun is HD is MUCH MUCH more streamlined in fixing some of the annoyances. The prime examples is adding the swift sail so you dont have to change wind direction every time you want to move in the boat, and only needing 3 Triforce charts instead of 8. Im completely dumbfounded that he got stuck for so long in certain areas since the only place i got stuck was with the charts because i didnt want to go island to island charting to find where the shards are on the charts.
I still remember when the gamegrumps thread was new and I was almost lynched for saying that they sound like a bunch of hyper manchilds who can't pay attentionto the games to me and now look at that.
[QUOTE=Killuah;45276326]I still remember when the gamegrumps thread was new and I was almost lynched for saying that they sound like a bunch of hyper manchilds who can't pay attentionto the games to me and now look at that.[/QUOTE] Facepunch tends to be ultra defensive about everything. I got yelled at for saying DNF was a bad game back when that thread was around :v: (and then Aliens: CM) Turn off ratings and you'll be a happier person.
[QUOTE=ForgotPassword;45275987]And I'll also admit that I love it because it was great fun as a kid but I don't think I could properly critique it nowadays Like Arin mentions at the start.[/QUOTE] Neither could Arin since he did the same thing for ALttP [editline]2nd July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Sift;45275746]-snip-[/QUOTE] He doesn't blame the game as much as DSP, but he's just as stupid.
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;45276749]Neither could Arin since he did the same thing for ALttP [editline]2nd July 2014[/editline] He doesn't blame the game as much as DSP, but he's just as stupid.[/QUOTE] Admittedly it seems when he's doing Game Grumps, it's mostly them fucking around a talking about shit with no relation at all to what's going on unless something wacky happens. So they're likely paying so very little attention to the game anyway. Not the best move for a lets play channel, but whatever. They still have an army of fans who will just watch everything. I gave up after they finished most of Sonic '06 because that game is a spectacle to watch. This Sequelitis doesn't really fit in with the others at all...the others were actually focused and picked a theme to talk about. This one not so much, maybe you could say it's about how 2D games just straight up struggle to move to 3D if their mechanics refuse to change much with it. But he spends maybe 3 minutes on that tangent...OoT is a pretty flawed game from what I managed to play through before abandoning my Wii forever. It aged so damn badly, at the time it might have been the greatest shit, but that doesn't mean the game will be good forever. Later Zelda games basically fixed all the things I had wrong with the game anyway, but I just can't quite bring myself to play OoT enough to finish it.
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