[QUOTE=Griffster26;48274255]Downfall and Letters from Iwo Jima/Flags of our Fathers[/QUOTE]
letters is underrated as hell imo.
[QUOTE=Tac Error;48273899]
Which front? The Leningrad Front (Army Group) that participated in this battle? The Estonian offensives are "forgotten battles" in Soviet/Russian historiography (as noted by David Glantz in a 2001 survey essay), so IMHO more historical research is needed before we can make definite judgements.
What I'll say next and below is a tangent, but to fronts in general, successful Soviet offensives, like the Visla-Oder Operation in early 1945 had the spearheads taking time and proper reconnaissance which made the initial breakthroughs very succesful (for example, Konev's 1st Ukrainian Front did an artillery preparation that heavily battered the opposing 4th Panzer Army and tore open gaps for the Front's tank-heavy forces to enter the enemy's rear, all in a single day).
As for Berlin, one could certainly see it as a needlessly bloody and incompetent battle dictated by Stalin/poor leadership/mismanagement, etc. But another explanation would also be the fact that the terrain in and surrounding Berlin was much more urbanized and wooded than the plains of Poland or Ukraine. Thus Soviet forces (especially Zhukov’s 1st Belorussian Front) were not adapted to fighting in that terrain and paid the price in casualties. Though as a silver lining, the lessons fighting in the rough German terrain formed the basis of the Soviet Army's first postwar formation reorganization when they turned their tank-heavy forces into more balanced mechanized ones.[/QUOTE]
I agree that more extensive research and more established facts are required to draw definite conclusions, but on the other hand we have absurd numbers of casualties both permanent and temporary to have at least some idea on how the command went about cracking the German defences.
For Berlin operation, I think the two explanations aren't mutually exclusive. When confronted with circumstances you're not familiar with, it takes twice or more the amount of time to properly prepare, order required equipment, possibly even regroup with your flanks. And none of that was done. At that point Stalin really wasn't participating in planning, so mismanagement is off the table, much rather his lack of trust in his field commanders and capabilities of their HQs. It is entirely possible that he saw the lack of proper action as a show of shameful indecisiveness, quite a few memoirs point in the direction of Stalin not being entirely "there" by the end of the war.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;48267306]Still haven't seen a good war flick that captures the grittyness and savagery as well as Saving Private Ryan did[/QUOTE]
Come and See.
It's the most brutal fucking thing you'll ever see.
[editline]23rd July 2015[/editline]
Ah, someone beat me to it.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48265623]40,000 square miles and 30 million dead. The scale of Eastern front was insane.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Seelow_Heights[/url]
Judging from the trailer this film is gonna show both sides. Hopefully it gets an english subtitle.[/QUOTE]
Wiki says it was around 12'000 people killed. Still horrible but much less then 30 mio
Ryan's overrated imo. Band of Brothers is better. Check out Das Boot, Cross of Iron, Talvisota, All Quiet on the Western Front, Masaki Kobayashi's The Human Condition, Big Red One, Steel Helmet, Paths of Glory. All fantastic films.
[QUOTE=CreeplyTuna;48275005]Ryan's overrated imo. Band of Brothers is better. Check out Das Boot, Cross of Iron, Talvisota, All Quiet on the Western Front, Masaki Kobayashi's The Human Condition, Big Red One, Steel Helmet, Paths of Glory. All fantastic films.[/QUOTE]
Holy fuck how could I have forgotten Das Boot, hot damn that's such a good film
[QUOTE=SwizzChees;48275001]Wiki says it was around 12'000 people killed. Still horrible but much less then 30 mio[/QUOTE]
30 million on the entire Eastern Front.
Brestaya Krepost is another good one.
also Ozvobozhdeniye mini series if you want an absolutely mindblowingly massively scaled representation of the battles
[Quote]150 tanks[1] 2,000 artillery pieces and 5,000 extras, mostly Soviet soldiers,[5] were involved in the making of all the five parts of the series.
The combat scenes in the first two parts were shot there,[13] in the summer of 1967.[24] 3,000 troops, 100 tanks, 18 military aircraft and hundreds of artillery pieces were used to recreate the Battle of Kursk;[4] 30 kilometers of trenches were dug to resemble the wartime fortifications. Ozerov supervised the set from a specially-built tower, using a handkerchief to signal the engineers when to detonate the charges.
[/quote]
It was made in the 60s so ofc its propaganda as hell but its still really really cool to watch since the scale is huge and none of the stuff there is CGI
Red Orchestra 3 is looking great.
Honestly though, looks great, will probably see it.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;48267306]Still haven't seen a good war flick that captures the grittyness and savagery as well as Saving Private Ryan did[/QUOTE]
I thought Fury was notably gritty and savage. In the end it ended up being a "hero saves the day" sort of thing like SPR, too.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48265710]Poor guys. Choosing between Stalin and Hitler... well I guess not choosing.[/QUOTE]
Most Eastern Europeans chose Hitler though out of a shared hatred for Marxism, Russia and the Jews.
[QUOTE=cr2142;48270553]Germany is slightly starting to get used to it now, theres been some good german dramas coming out these past few years that tell the tale of german soldiers, as well as the general public during that time
One I'd especially like to note is Our Mothers Our Fathers
[video=youtube;QkA-VcHzCxI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkA-VcHzCxI[/video][/QUOTE]
Our mothers our fathers is still one of the strongest movies I've ever seen. I really recommend seeing it.
[QUOTE=Taepodong-2;48275987]Most Eastern Europeans chose Hitler though out of a shared hatred for Marxism, Russia and the Jews.[/QUOTE]
Probably not the jews part.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;48276188]Probably not the jews part.[/QUOTE]
You'd be surprised of how much hate there were for Jews at that time.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;48276188]Probably not the jews part.[/QUOTE]
Considering that Ukrainian and Latvian collaborators murdered more Jews then the Germans occupying their countries ever did, I'd draw a pretty logical conclusion that a lot of people in Eastern Europe didn't like Jews at that time. Probably because Jews were associated with Russia because most of the early leading Bolsheviks were Jewish.
[QUOTE=Taepodong-2;48276327]Considering that Ukrainian and Latvian collaborators murdered more Jews then the Germans occupying their countries ever did, I'd draw a pretty logical conclusion that a lot of people in Eastern Europe didn't like Jews at that time. Probably because Jews were associated with Russia because most of the early leading Bolsheviks were Jewish.[/QUOTE]
Funnily enough the SS division Galizien from Ukraine didn't commit any warcrimes.
Which collaborators are you speaking of though?
A lot of Ukrainians joined the SS because of their hate for the Soviet Union
but also Ukrainian nationalists took the chance to join them so they can gain military experience for when the country ever turns independent.
[QUOTE=Griffster26;48274255]Downfall and Letters from Iwo Jima/Flags of our Fathers[/QUOTE]Downfall was great, grim as hell but believable and quite well conveyed Hitler's incompetence and insanity and the state of disarray the germans were in near the end
[QUOTE=Ghost656;48289900]Funnily enough the SS division Galizien from Ukraine didn't commit any warcrimes.
Which collaborators are you speaking of though?
A lot of Ukrainians joined the SS because of their hate for the Soviet Union
but also Ukrainian nationalists took the chance to join them so they can gain military experience for when the country ever turns independent.[/QUOTE]
That's just one SS division
Not every SS division took part in extermination activities
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Ukraine[/url]
[quote]The National Geographic reported: " A number of Ukrainians had collaborated: According to German historian Dieter Pohl, around 100,000 joined police units that provided key assistance to the Nazis. Many others staffed the local bureaucracies or lent a helping hand during mass shootings of Jews. Ukrainians, such as the infamous Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka, were also among the guards who manned the Nazi death camps."[14]
According to the The Simon Wiesenthal Center (in January 2011) "Ukraine has, to the best of our knowledge, never conducted a single investigation of a local Nazi war criminal, let alone prosecuted a Holocaust perpetrator."[15]
According to the Israeli Holocaust historian Yitzhak Arad, "In January 1942 a company of Tatar volunteers was established in Simferopol under the command of Einsatzgruppe 11. This company participated in anti-Jewish manhunts and murder actions in the rural regions."[16][/quote]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Auxiliary_Police[/url]
[quote]Ukrainian Auxiliary Police were the major perpetrator of the Holocaust on Soviet territories based on native origins, and those police units participated in the extermination of 150,000 Jews in the area of Volhynia alone[/quote]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arajs_Kommando[/url]
[quote]The Arajs Kommando unit actively participated in a variety of Nazi atrocities, including the killing of Jews, Roma, and mental patients, as well as punitive actions and massacres of civilians along Latvia's eastern border with the Soviet Union.[2] The Kommando killed around 26,000 Jews in total.[/quote]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Auxiliary_Police[/url]
[quote]Composed of local fascists, rightist members of the former military and police, and nationalist students, the organization participated in the Holocaust, looting and killing the local Jewish population[/quote]
I'm not sure about Latvians and Ukrainian collaborators killing more Jews than the Germans, but hatred of the jews was widespread in other countries such as Poland, Soviet Union, pretty much everywhere.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;48267306]Still haven't seen a good war flick that captures the grittyness and savagery as well as Saving Private Ryan did[/QUOTE]
Try "come and see", a Soviet film from 1985. It really disturbed new.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;48267306]Still haven't seen a good war flick that captures the grittyness and savagery as well as Saving Private Ryan did[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.coh2.org/uploads/blog_files/2012/08/Come_And_See___Go_And_See_1985.jpg[/IMG]
Hands down the best movie in terms of putting the horrors of war into perspective. It leans more towards an artistic approach rather than realism but it works brilliantly
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