[QUOTE=thisispain;29725795]feminists aren't fighting videogame characters
[/QUOTE]
Because feminists are too stupid to do anything more advanced than facebook.
[QUOTE=thisispain;29725795]feminists aren't fighting videogame characters
[editline]9th May 2011[/editline]
just ignore everyone except th89[/QUOTE]
Remember that in a balanced essay one must take into account both sides of the argument. Putting all of TH89s stuff in would make it seem blatantly biased.
Wait.
It's you.
I'm tired we can argue tomorrow.
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29725544]So wait, sluts in real life are ok, sluts in games are not?[/QUOTE]
"Slut" is a derogatory term that exists to make women feel bad about having sex. It's a pretty shitty thing to call someone. Most women who get called "sluts" have crippling self-esteem issues stemming in large part from the way they are objectified in the male-dominated culture we live in. They equate sexual attention with genuine affection and self-worth and are often abused quite badly.
So yeah, I don't think that's something we should encourage in real life or in videogames.
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29725544]Oh come on, games are not the only ones. Movies, ads and everything else uses sex appeal these days.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that's true. "Everyone's doing it" is not a justification, and if you're trying to imply that movies and ads aren't also criticized for it you're very mistaken.
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29725544]And I don't see how sex appeal is sexist against women.[/QUOTE]
Do you want to find out?
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSXDCMSlv_I[/media]
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29725544]I don't understand what to change in games, I see nothing wrong with jiggly boobs here and there. It's like porn but with less nudity and more game.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly why people don't take games seriously as an art form. This kind of shit right here.
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29725544]Sure no one would buy your game if your cover had a nerdy chick with glasses and pimples all over her face. Putting good looking women in games is sexist how exactly?[/QUOTE]
Putting a good looking woman in a game isn't inherently sexist. Putting several good looking women in a game isn't either. What is sexist is working from the assumption that the most important thing about a woman is how sexy she is, regardless of who she is, what she is doing, etc. How many fantasy games have you seen where male fighters get huge bulky armor suits, and the women get stuff like this?
[img]http://th00.deviantart.com/fs20/300W/f/2007/295/f/5/Tales_of_Magic___Sorceress_by_picster.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29725544]We don't discriminate against them or anything.[/QUOTE]
You should really watch that movie.
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29725544]We start to sound like old farts. Oh god, they didn't include a black man in the game, racist. Oh god, the woman has boobs bigger than normal, sexist.[/QUOTE]
You act like that's trivial, and it's trivial to YOU, because you're a white male. You don't have to worry about being represented in games because you know you are. You're presented with a huge variety of white male heroes to play as or watch on TV. They have different appearances and personalities, different ways of solving problems, etc. Whereas if you're a woman or a black guy, you're lucky to get the occasional character that looks like you. You're even luckier to get one that isn't a ridiculous stereotype or a poorly-disguised sex object.
Your personal experience (straight white guy) is catered to almost exclusively by the game industry, so much so that it's become the water the fish doesn't know is there. So much so that you dismiss any suggestion that the under-representation of minorities in games and the reduction of women (in the game world) to Pretty Stuff For Me To Look At as pointless complaining.
[editline]9th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;29725375]I don't consider "bitch" to be a synonym for women, because not all women are bitches.
And I always use "to bitch" as a synonym for "to complain" regardless of what gender the person I'm talking about is[/QUOTE]
Don't tell me you've never talked to someone who says "oh I call black people niggers but I'm not racist because there are some good ones who aren't niggers"
i want boobs
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29725823]Because feminists are too stupid to do anything more advanced than facebook.[/QUOTE]
Most of the feminists I know are smarter, older, and better-educated than you. But isn't it interesting that you're so quick to belittle and dismiss the opinions of women who challenge your ideas, rather than engage with them rationally?
Female game characters are highly stereotyped and often portrayed as sexual objects or as the classic damsel in distress bullshit.
Games needs to grow up to become a true art form.
[QUOTE=TH89;29726043]Most of the feminists I know are smarter, older, and better-educated than you. But isn't it interesting that you're so quick to belittle and dismiss the opinions of women who challenge your ideas, rather than engage with them rationally?[/QUOTE]
You do realize your generalizing the group in a good light instead of a bad on like Johan's post. So you just fought fire with fire :v:
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29725671]Advertisement is supposed to attract. No one wants to buy stuff if it has feces on it's cover.
It's like complaining that my nerdy face isn't on a deodorant box.[/QUOTE]
The issue isn't of personal attraction when we see an advert. It's that the women on the advert may have been specifically chosen to sell it based on her appearance, ignoring all other factors.
Your argument is kind of like, advertisement is sexist, therefore it should be.
[QUOTE=Cl0cK;29726277]Female game characters are highly stereotyped and often portrayed as sexual objects or as the classic damsel in distress bullshit.
Games needs to grow up to become a true art form.[/QUOTE]
And here comes the grow up argument, which isn't true for all games.
[QUOTE=Cl0cK;29726277]Female game characters are highly stereotyped and often portrayed as sexual objects or as the classic damsel in distress bullshit.
Games needs to grow up to become a true art form.[/QUOTE]
But is art is grown up? I think it's possible to have sexist art, whether we agree with it or not.
[QUOTE=Swilly;29726351]You do realize your generalizing the group in a good light instead of a bad on like Johan's post. So you just fought fire with fire :v:[/QUOTE]
I'm not generalizing, I'm speaking anecdotally. But feminists (as with most progressives) DO tend to be better-educated than average.
[QUOTE=TH89;29726407]I'm not generalizing, I'm speaking anecdotally. But feminists (as with most progressives) DO tend to be better-educated than average.[/QUOTE]
This is true.
Just throwing out the fact that anecdotal evidence doesn't work and its a pet peeve. I yell at everyone who does try an use it.
[QUOTE=Swilly;29726392]And here comes the grow up argument, which isn't true for all games.[/QUOTE]
It's true for all but a tiny, tiny minority. Even games like Mass Effect that are praised for their storytelling and depth of character development are peanuts compared to the best Hollywood movies.
Also this:
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_I7d3z_mOB4M/TVJinxsFceI/AAAAAAAAALw/gZpc07Splkw/s1600/mass-effect-miranda-lawson-ass.jpg[/img]
I always play as the chick. I don't like playing with other guys.
[QUOTE=TH89;29726449]It's true for all but a tiny, tiny minority. Even games like Mass Effect that are praised for their storytelling and depth of character development are peanuts compared to the best Hollywood movies.
Also this:
[img_thumb]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_I7d3z_mOB4M/TVJinxsFceI/AAAAAAAAALw/gZpc07Splkw/s1600/mass-effect-miranda-lawson-ass.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
I'd have to disagree, just look at Uncharted which is basically a modernized rebirth of Indiana Jones.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r9opp1MsNQ[/media]
And then there are games like LittleBigPlanet which are gender neutral no matter HOW you look at it.
Metal Gear Solid 4.
You could right a 400 page analysis on sexism with MGS4
If you want to see some REAL sexism in games, just head over to tesnexus.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;29726585]If you want to see some REAL sexism in games, just head over to tesnexus.[/QUOTE]
or FalloutNexus...
The shit in that is appalling.
[QUOTE=Swilly;29726498]I'd have to disagree, just look at Uncharted which is basically a modernized rebirth of Indiana Jones.[/QUOTE]
Uncharted is awesome and probably the best-written two games to come out in the past few years (and written by a woman, incidentally!). Don't get me wrong, I think Uncharted is really cool, and it does a good job imitating Indiana Jones. But Indiana Jones movies are pretty shallow and pulpy themselves. When are we going to see a game equivalent of Black Swan or Fiddler on the Roof or something like that? As it stands, the game industry as a whole is immature enough that a snappy, well-written pulp story is the best you can hope to get.
My worst fear is that videogames will end up like comic books--forgotten by the world, enjoyed largely by creepy man-children who don't see anything wrong with giving every female character giant breasts and a skintight leotard (that IS a huge generalization, but these problems are still endemic to the comics industry).
Black Swan isn't really a deep film though, it portrays a woman crying through the entire film because she's scared of not being chosen for a ballet show.
[QUOTE=TH89;29726673]Uncharted is awesome and probably the best-written two games to come out in the past few years (and written by a woman, incidentally!). Don't get me wrong, I think Uncharted is really cool, and it does a good job imitating Indiana Jones. But Indiana Jones movies are pretty shallow and pulpy themselves. When are we going to see a game equivalent of Black Swan or Fiddler on the Roof or something like that? As it stands, the game industry as a whole is immature enough that a snappy, well-written pulp story is the best you can hope to get.
My worst fear is that videogames will end up like comic books--forgotten by the world, enjoyed largely by creepy man-children who don't see anything wrong with giving every female character giant breasts and a skintight leotard (that IS a huge generalization, but these problems are still endemic to the comics industry).[/QUOTE]
Well that's just it, how would you develop a game like Fiddler on the Roof or Black Swan. The fact that games are interactive doesn't mean that any form story fits. We haven't figured it out yet but it will be difficult and massive gamble. That massive gamble culminated into Heavy Rain which while I liked it and few others do, many people found it annoying and there were many plot holes. Even then, the only woman to appear was very shallow.
And just a quick side not, its creepy man-children and woman-children. For the most part is Manga followers who tend to be female(personal observation so you could probably toss that out the window but whatever)
[editline]9th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cl0cK;29726748]Black Swan isn't really a deep film though, it portrays a woman crying through the entire film because she's scared of not being chosen for a ballet show.[/QUOTE]
It contrasts starkly against what many of us think Ballet is which is these tough perfect women dancing for perfection. Instead its really a VERY harsh world similar to fashion models.
Another game which I have to say is rather well done is Brothers in Arms:Road to Hill 30 and Hell's Highway. Then there is Darwinia, an awesome indie game with campy text based story :D
[QUOTE=Swilly;29726751]Well that's just it, how would you develop a game like Fiddler on the Roof or Black Swan. The fact that games are interactive doesn't mean that any form story fits. We haven't figured it out yet but it will be difficult and massive gamble. That massive gamble culminated into Heavy Rain which while I liked it and few others do, many people found it annoying and there were many plot holes. Even then, the only woman to appear was very shallow.[/QUOTE]
Well, let's look at what you said was wrong with Heavy Rain:
-Annoying gameplay
-Plot holes
-Shallow woman character
The first one is the hardest, but keep in mind Heavy Rain is pretty much the first of its kind. The formulas it used can be refined over time with successive iterations and other games of the same type. The second two can pretty much be chalked up to bad writing, which isn't a problem that's inherent to plot-driven games.
That's why I like games like Mass Effect and Heavy Rain. They might not be perfect, hell, they might have craploads of major and minor flaws, but dammit, they're trying. They're raising the bar of what you can do in a game and what you should expect from a game and that's great, that's how we make progress.
[editline]9th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cl0cK;29726748]Black Swan isn't really a deep film though, it portrays a woman crying through the entire film because she's scared of not being chosen for a ballet show.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, full disclosure, I've never seen it :v:
[QUOTE=TH89;29726905]Well, let's look at what you said was wrong with Heavy Rain:
-Annoying gameplay
-Plot holes
-Shallow woman character
The first one is the hardest, but keep in mind Heavy Rain is pretty much the first of its kind. The formulas it used can be refined over time with successive iterations and other games of the same type. The second two can pretty much be chalked up to bad writing, which isn't a problem that's inherent to plot-driven games.
That's why I like games like Mass Effect and Heavy Rain. They might not be perfect, hell, they might have craploads of major and minor flaws, but dammit, they're trying. They're raising the bar of what you can do in a game and what you should expect from a game and that's great, that's how we make progress.[/QUOTE]
There are other games that are trying.
World in Conflict was stunning with both its game and cinematic parts. I love the game so damn much.
Yes there are, and that should be encouraged, while games that are happy to wallow in the status quo of shitty writing and Soul Calibur-costumed women should be criticized for it.
Not sure where we're going with this at this point.
[QUOTE=TH89;29727029]Yes there are, and that should be encouraged, while games that are happy to wallow in the status quo of shitty writing and Soul Calibur-costumed women should be criticized for it.
Not sure where we're going with this at this point.[/QUOTE]
It think every thing's been said really.
[QUOTE=TH89;29726905]That's why I like games like Mass Effect and Heavy Rain. They might not be perfect, hell, they might have craploads of major and minor flaws, but dammit, they're trying. They're raising the bar of what you can do in a game and what you should expect from a game and that's great, that's how we make progress.[/QUOTE]
Hot damn, that was actually kind of beautiful that sentence.
[QUOTE=TH89;29726905]That's why I like games like Mass Effect and Heavy Rain. They might not be perfect, hell, they might have craploads of major and minor flaws, but dammit, they're trying. They're raising the bar of what you can do in a game and what you should expect from a game and that's great, that's how we make progress.[/QUOTE]
Mass Effect is an interesting case of such a huge story with no effect on the gameplay at all. Not to say I don't love it. Also sorry for getting further off topic.
[quote][B]Female game characters, sexist or not?[/B][/quote][IMG]http://xbox360media.gamespy.com/xbox360/image/article/103/1036682/bayonetta-20091020030801250_640w.jpg[/IMG]
Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
[QUOTE=Archonet;29727265][img_thumb]http://xbox360media.gamespy.com/xbox360/image/article/103/1036682/bayonetta-20091020030801250_640w.jpg[/img_thumb]
Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.[/QUOTE]
Well at least she was meant to be sexy since she was a demon witch. Its even worse when they have like 5 female normal characters with double fs
[QUOTE=TH89;29726673]Uncharted is awesome and probably the best-written two games to come out in the past few years (and written by a woman, incidentally!). Don't get me wrong, I think Uncharted is really cool, and it does a good job imitating Indiana Jones. But Indiana Jones movies are pretty shallow and pulpy themselves. When are we going to see a game equivalent of Black Swan or Fiddler on the Roof or something like that? As it stands, the game industry as a whole is immature enough that a snappy, well-written pulp story is the best you can hope to get.
My worst fear is that videogames will end up like comic books--forgotten by the world, enjoyed largely by creepy man-children who don't see anything wrong with giving every female character giant breasts and a skintight leotard (that IS a huge generalization, but these problems are still endemic to the comics industry).[/QUOTE]
I like pulp films and comic books though
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