Female game characters, sexist or not? - General

[QUOTE=ButtsexV2;29743613]gordon freeman, dong swaying in the wind with not a word coming out of him, with bulging breasts[/QUOTE] Gordon, you're needed in the "test chamber"!

[QUOTE=affersab;29742283]If all games only had Male Characters I am sure that at some point someone would complain saying that it's Sexist.[/QUOTE] Yeah, and they would be right. It's not like it's a binary choice between "female leads in bikinis" and "no female leads at all." There are better options :v: [QUOTE=archangel125;29741943]TH, curious as to what you'd think of characters like Lara Croft. Sure, her... proportions were initially quite exaggerated, but over the course of the series her personality has been developed quite well - and I think that's what made the games so popular. She is a character that'd be intimidating to most males - she can kick practically anyone's ass, she's very well educated, intelligent, witty, and [I]dangerous[/i], in more ways than one. I think she was, in fact, the first major female character in video games to embody something other than 'damsel in distress' or 'anime fighter with a leather strap as an outfit'.[/QUOTE] I've never actually played a Tomb Raider game, but based on what I've read I think Lara Croft is a pretty cool character (who, importantly, would still be a cool character without the booty shorts and giant boobs). There's a lecturer at the local university here who had some interesting stuff to say about Lara Croft: [quote=Jane Pinckard]The Lara Croft thing is a tough one, because there's this woman that I met at Stanford Law who was a gamer, and she loved Lara Croft, and she had Lara Croft as her desktop wallpaper, and then she was told by people at her work that that was considered sexual harassment and she had to take it down. And she was like, "But she's my hero!" [Laughs] You know? She took it down. What could she do? But she was like, it's kind of tragic that one woman's hero becomes another woman's -- I don't know -- unpleasant reminder of the sexualized nature of the avatars. So I think for me Lara Croft, the design of her was not as offensive as the way that she was marketed. And I separate those two. I think when Toby [Gard] designed Lara Croft, he did design her to be this basically over-the-top superhero. And then when marketing got a hold of her, they had her pose topless with Duke Nukem's hands on her boobs, and they had her do these stupid pictorials. And Toby, the creator was like, "Lara Croft, my character, would never do those. She is a classy, strong woman." He felt like he had lost control over how she was depicted and presented. And of course she's virtual; she can't say no. They can make her do whatever they want. Which is another interesting form of manipulation. Because at least [real women] can say no.[/quote] Also, something I wanted to touch on earlier but couldn't handle the formatting on my phone--you mentioned Jessica Cannon from SiN Episodes as an example of a "relatively tasteful" outfit, and I have to kind of disagree. [img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1T4ZbkqoUMA/TKv-61IdzxI/AAAAAAAAC0g/_WI-C6_PpeQ/s1600/sin+episodes+jessicacannon_2.jpg[/img] Just off the top there's some pretty blatant stuff here: -She's baring more midriff than pretty much anyone would if they're not at the beach or something (or at a car show or something where they're trying to ~dress sexy~). -Her jacket, which looks like it's supposed to be leather, is perfectly molded around her boobs. I've never seen a jacket do this in real life, but it's not uncommon in videogames (it's especially funny when it happens to kevlar). -She has belts on her legs that are hiked up to make her butt stick out more. -Her thong underwear sticks up several inches above her pants. Hiked up underwear isn't really a huge thing since it happens in real life a lot but in this case it's pretty over the top. It's kind of hard to make judgments about how "realistic" something is when you're dealing with science fiction, but when the female characters consistently end up looking something like this it's hard to ignore the patterns. [img]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3677532/femshep.jpg[/img]

Dude you just steam roll through everything :v: You should be the one arguing that Killingfloor should get some female avatars :dance: Actually that brings up something [img]http://kf-wiki.com/images/6/66/Stalker.jpg[/img] Sexist or not? [img]http://kf-wiki.com/images/thumb/0/0a/Siren.png/144px-Siren.png[/img]

[QUOTE=Swilly;29744561][img_thumb]http://kf-wiki.com/images/6/66/Stalker.jpg[/img_thumb] Sexist or not?[/QUOTE] idk what this is from. Assuming there's a male equivalent, what does it look like?

[QUOTE=TH89;29744617]idk what this is from. Assuming there's a male equivalent, what does it look like?[/QUOTE] Its Killingfloor, its one of the ZEDs which are these freaky mutant things you need to kill. The Stalker is one that can go invisible and sneak up on you. The Siren basically just screams, destroying explosives and damaging your insides :v: [url]http://kf-wiki.com/wiki/Siren[/url] [url]http://kf-wiki.com/wiki/Stalker[/url]

In the christmas event they were pretty much just slutty vampires wearing gasmasks, with a bloodstain on their chest.

Oh hey guys I found a thing: [url]http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/18/why-strong-female-characters-are-bad-for-women/[/url] It's relevant. And it's not what you think, if you're judging it by the title. Also, for the "men are sexualized / stereotyped too" argument: Well, men also are generally the only ones who are actually characters in these games. They also have a purpose to be in there other than "stand around and look fappable". And then there's that whole thing about women being oppressed and treated as property for who knows how long, only ending relatively recently. And being judged almost solely on their looks, still going on today to a degree. And the fact that they're 50% of the population, and make up, what, 40% of gamers? Yet still being treated as though they're rare among gamers, and that games shouldn't include them or concern them at all. And that people treat their complaints about sexism as just "bitching". Example: you assholes. But those are just minor, unimportant details, right? [QUOTE=BadderSanta;29745087]How are we assholes?[/QUOTE] That part's really just directed at the people saying that any complaints of sexism in games are just "bitching" and "enslaving us to political correctness". In other words, the people saying "Fuck women, why should we consider them."

[QUOTE=Viper202;29744728]In the christmas event they were pretty much just slutty vampires wearing gasmasks, with a bloodstain on their chest.[/QUOTE] The game isn't that serious though :v: You have British men running around yelling, "DOSH"

[QUOTE=Swilly;29744827]The game isn't that serious though :v: You have British men running around yelling, "DOSH"[/QUOTE] GRAB IT WHILE IT'S HOT

[QUOTE=Last or First;29744762]Oh hey guys I found a thing: [url]http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/18/why-strong-female-characters-are-bad-for-women/[/url] It's relevant. And it's not what you think, if you're judging it by the title. Also, for the "men are sexualized / stereotyped too" argument: Well, men also are generally the only ones who are actually characters in these games. They also have a purpose to be in there other than "stand around and look fappable". And then there's that whole thing about women being oppressed and treated as property for who knows how long, only ending relatively recently. And being judged almost solely on their looks, still going on today to a degree. And the fact that they're 50% of the population, and make up, what, 40% of gamers? Yet still being treated as though they're rare among gamers, and that games shouldn't include them or concern them at all. And that people treat their complaints about sexism as just "bitching". Example: you assholes. But those are just minor, unimportant details, right?[/QUOTE] How are we assholes?

[QUOTE=TH89;29740875]What about them? For every scantily-clad male character you can think of there's 100 female ones. And are Snake and Sam Fisher depicted as sex objects? Does the camera linger on their butt racks in cutscenes, or pan suggestively up and down their bodies when they walk into the room? [/QUOTE] for snake yes lol I think it's okay if they make the female character hot as long as they have a fair amount of clothing(as much as the male characters(which means they have to be sexy too(like snake))) and i want them to be likable too like i'd want any character to be(even the antagonists) but it's hard to have a good story in a game whilest having good gameplay. i do want equality for women but that's just my opinion and no one probably cares

[QUOTE=thisispain;29741423]they might know anatomy just like i know advanced level calculus but do i use advanced level calculus? no it's obvious i don't, and it's obvious they don't use their anatomy lessons either th89 if i remember correctly was actually in an anatomy drawing class, compare what he drew compared to videogame artists and you'll see how much artistic liberties they really take[/QUOTE] Hey, are we talking about sexism or are we playing "talk about shit no one else knows about"?

[QUOTE=Viper202;29744728]In the christmas event they were pretty much just slutty vampires wearing gasmasks, with a bloodstain on their chest.[/QUOTE] That's pretty messed up. In a society that already has pretty serious issues with violence against women and sexual assault, having a sexualized but brutalized female character that the player kills over and over again gives off pretty creepy vibes. I mean, it's not like the "it's so we have something hot to look at :smug:" excuse holds any water here because I doubt most people would actually find this attractive: [img]http://kf-wiki.com/images/thumb/0/0d/Christmas_stalker.png/180px-Christmas_stalker.png[/img] [QUOTE=Last or First;29744762]Oh hey guys I found a thing: [url]http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/18/why-strong-female-characters-are-bad-for-women/[/url] It's relevant. And it's not what you think, if you're judging it by the title.[/QUOTE] This is a really good article and everyone should read it.

[QUOTE=TH89;29745937]That's pretty messed up. In a society that already has pretty serious issues with violence against women and sexual assault, having a sexualized but brutalized female character that the player kills over and over again gives off pretty creepy vibes. I mean, it's not like the "it's so we have something hot to look at :smug:" excuse holds any water here because I doubt most people would actually find this attractive: [img_thumb]http://kf-wiki.com/images/thumb/0/0d/Christmas_stalker.png/180px-Christmas_stalker.png[/img_thumb] This is a really good article and everyone should read it.[/QUOTE] it's probably intentionally "sexualized" as a joke of some sort

[QUOTE=ButtsexV2;29746264]it's probably intentionally "sexualized" as a joke of some sort[/QUOTE] If the joke is indistinguishable from what games do as a not-joke all the time, is it really a joke? [img]http://gyazo.com/56cfec5320dd36cc4d2bb9d32f1bea3e.png[/img]

[QUOTE=ButtsexV2;29746264]it's probably intentionally "sexualized" as a joke of some sort[/QUOTE] My ass it is. Edit:Strangely, this thread is like Max's Comidial Puns being said over and over again. except they make sense.

[QUOTE=TH89;29746414]If the joke is indistinguishable from what games do as a not-joke all the time, is it really a joke? [img_thumb]http://gyazo.com/56cfec5320dd36cc4d2bb9d32f1bea3e.png[/img_thumb][/QUOTE] it is when you turn a walking corpse into a porn star

I would say yes due to final fantasy, then I realized that most of the "girl" characters are just cross-dressing guys.

[QUOTE=ButtsexV2;29746490]it is when you turn a walking corpse into a porn star[/QUOTE] But that's exactly what Silent Hill is doing in that picture and it's not supposed to be a joke? I've never played Killing Floor so I don't know what the tone of the game is but "look how precisely we can imitate videogame tropes" isn't exactly a high-hanging fruit yadadamean.

[QUOTE=TH89;29746553]But that's exactly what Silent Hill is doing in that picture and it's not supposed to be a joke? I've never played Killing Floor so I don't know what the tone of the game is but "look how precisely we can imitate videogame tropes" isn't exactly a high-hanging fruit yadadamean.[/QUOTE] killing floor has boobs and no dicks, therefore it must be sexist. you know, disregarding the huge amounts of blood, rotting flesh and disfigurement.

[QUOTE=ButtsexV2;29737185]muscular != fit look at men like Michael Phelps, he's fit. also deadpool would look good if it weren't for being grossly disfigured and heihachi probably looked good when he was younger[/QUOTE] But again fit does not always = sexy. Im fit but I would say Im far from sexy.

[QUOTE=SHOH;29746576]killing floor has boobs and no dicks, therefore it must be sexist. you know, disregarding the huge amounts of blood, rotting flesh and disfigurement.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

[QUOTE=TH89;29746617]I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.[/QUOTE] To be fair, after re-reading my post, I am also unsure as to the point I was trying to make, considering I basically counter'ed myself.

[QUOTE=TH89;29746553]But that's exactly what Silent Hill is doing in that picture and it's not supposed to be a joke? I've never played Killing Floor so I don't know what the tone of the game is but "look how precisely we can imitate videogame tropes" isn't exactly a high-hanging fruit yadadamean.[/QUOTE] "The skimpy appearance of the "Bubble Head Nurses" reflects James' sexual repression and "objectification of women." Taken straight from the Wiki for Silent Hill 2. Not sure if it really matters in your debate or whatever, I'm just saying, in case you didn't know.

[QUOTE=TH89;29746553]But that's exactly what Silent Hill is doing in that picture and it's not supposed to be a joke? I've never played Killing Floor so I don't know what the tone of the game is but "look how precisely we can imitate videogame tropes" isn't exactly a high-hanging fruit yadadamean.[/QUOTE] Killing Floor takes on a pretty comical tone despite the oversaturation of blood and gore.

[QUOTE=blerb;29746702]"The skimpy appearance of the "Bubble Head Nurses" reflects James' sexual repression and "objectification of women." Taken straight from the Wiki for Silent Hill 2. Not sure if it really matters in your debate or whatever, I'm just saying, in case you didn't know.[/QUOTE] I didn't, thanks. I guess it's good there's a reason for it, although I doubt most players would think far beyond "damn these zombies are hot!!" [QUOTE=ButtsexV2;29746720]Killing Floor takes on a pretty comical tone despite the oversaturation of blood and gore.[/QUOTE] The Timesplitters series is really funny, but this character... [img]http://images2.layoutsparks.com/1/149808/jo-beth-casey-cartoon.jpg[/img] ...is still a pretty sexist one that doesn't really satirize or undermine the objectification of women in any meaningful way. Just like a racist joke is still racist, even if it's meant to be funny.

[QUOTE=TH89;29746780] The Timesplitters series is really funny, but this character... -snipped due to size- ...is still a pretty sexist one that doesn't really satirize or undermine the objectification of women in any meaningful way. Just like a racist joke is still racist, even if it's meant to be funny.[/QUOTE] At the end of the day it is down to the user whether they generalize women due to what they are like in games. They are all different characters, I know girls who would definatly fit the classification of the character from timesplitters. Does this mean all women are like that? No, but it means if you think all women are like that due to a game, then you are very impressionable, and should probably think about how you regard women. (no TH89, this isn't directed at you.)

it's never fair to say all women are like that but it's not fair either to say none are.

I don't really see the fuss about jokes that are racist or sexist or whatever, as long it's not mean't seriously and it's amde very clear it's a joke I don't see the problem.

[QUOTE=SHOH;29746872]At the end of the day it is down to the user whether they generalize women due to what they are like in games.[/QUOTE] It's easy to say "oh I'm not affected by media" but you are. Advertisers love people who think they're "too smart" to be influenced by ads because they don't even have their guard up, and the same is true with games and music and TV etc etc. Mass media is a huge part of how we form our ideas about how to treat certain kinds of people, what's cool and uncool, etc. [editline]11th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=carcarcargo;29746936]I don't really see the fuss about jokes that are racist or sexist or whatever, as long it's not mean't seriously and it's amde very clear it's a joke I don't see the problem.[/QUOTE] White man doesn't think racism and sexism are a big deal, news at 11.