[QUOTE=Earthen;29755473]Yeah this really doesn't help your argument. He was pointing out that if you make a joke and everyone realises it was a joke, then it isn't trying to be racist. It's just trying to be funny. You've twisted his words so you can make it seem as if he is implying that he doesn't care about racism, when in fact he was pointing out that racism is a problem, but it doesn't mean we have to be super serial about it all day long.[/QUOTE]
Such familiarity is only really acceptable among friends, as I'm sure you know.
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;29747437]then it isn't a funny joke
tell me a racist joke that's funny
any racist joke[/QUOTE]
I was at school one day and one of my friends was playfully hitting a girl with some headphones. Note: my friend was black and he wasn't hurting the girl. He then says I'm hitting my slave in a stereotyped voice. She replies, jokingly, 'shouldn't it be the other way round?'
Sure you had to be there, but everyone laughed and it was sincerely meant as a joke. Nobody was trying to be a racist and nobody was trying to hurt feelings.
[editline]11th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=archangel125;29755476]Such familiarity is only really acceptable among friends, as I'm sure you know.[/QUOTE]
Obviously, I wouldn't go around on the streets, joking to Chinese people about rice or whatever.
[QUOTE=Earthen;29755473]Yeah this really doesn't help your argument. He was pointing out that if you make a joke and everyone realises it was a joke, then it isn't trying to be racist. It's just trying to be funny. You've twisted his words so you can make it seem as if he is implying that he doesn't care about racism, when in fact he was pointing out that racism is a problem, but it doesn't mean we have to be super serial about it all day long.[/QUOTE]
"It's okay to use the word nigger in a speech because everyone there can obviously tell it's a joke."
No, not really, maybe if you're with a bunch of black friends (like anyone here has any) and they're cool with it then whatever, but posting on a public forum is not clever. How are we supposed to know it's a joke?
Racism and sexism even as a joke shouldn't be used outside the friend group. Strangers rarely get such jokes and they are rarely funny to anyone except you.
It's like an inside joke, it's ok to tell it inside, but outsiders will look weird at you.
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;29753958]MGS4 portray sexism in a different way. Most of the "sexism" things that happen in that game can actually be justified. I.e Naomi dresses kind of skimpy, and by pressing r1 in certain situations snake can actually look up her dress etc.
But stop and think for a bit. Who's looking up her dress? You? Or snake? Kojima obviously wanted to portray Snake (disregarding the super-soldier part) as the average joe who likes tits and ass. Yes, it is still sexist, but to a certain point. Straight males (whether they admit it or not) DO look at attractive girls, and that's just the way it is.[/QUOTE]
I didn't press r1 to have Mina present her ass for most of her speech.
Or for those god awful second stages of the boss fights.
[QUOTE=DuncanFrost;29758000]"It's okay to use the word nigger in a speech because everyone there can obviously tell it's a joke."
No, not really, maybe if you're with a bunch of black friends (like anyone here has any) and they're cool with it then whatever, but posting on a public forum is not clever. How are we supposed to know it's a joke?[/QUOTE]
Refer to my post after that, I said that its only really acceptable around people you know. I was merely commenting on how TH89 always attacks this white male demographic and assumes that all white males act like pretentious, ignorant douchebags.
[QUOTE=Earthen;29759916]Refer to my post after that, I said that its only really acceptable around people you know. I was merely commenting on how TH89 always attacks this white male demographic and assumes that all white males act like pretentious, ignorant douchebags.[/QUOTE]
fuck i'm a white male (jew still counts as white doesn't it?) and i know i'm a pretentious ignorant douchebag
[QUOTE=thisispain;29760129]fuck i'm a white male (jew still counts as white doesn't it?) and i know i'm a pretentious ignorant douchebag[/QUOTE]
But jew is a religion, not a race.
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29760146]But jew is a religion, not a race.[/QUOTE]
jews are an ethnic group
most jewish people have genes in common that aren't widely found in other ethnic groups
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29760146]But jew is a religion, not a race.[/QUOTE]
What I assume is that those who followed Judaism set up their own nation.
[QUOTE=TH89;29746780]The Timesplitters series is really funny, but this character...
[img_thumb]http://images2.layoutsparks.com/1/149808/jo-beth-casey-cartoon.jpg[/img_thumb]
...is still a pretty sexist one that doesn't really satirize or undermine the objectification of women in any meaningful way. Just like a racist joke is still racist, even if it's meant to be funny.[/QUOTE]
consider it as satire of sexist ideals, rather than a sexist joke
Way too many games feature oversexualised women. Then again, even if they leave them as bland and unrevealing as possible, someone will still make a nude mod.
[QUOTE=thisispain;29760129]fuck i'm a white male (jew still counts as white doesn't it?) and i know i'm a pretentious ignorant douchebag[/QUOTE]
Yeah thats fine, but I don't see why he has to make these assumptions. I mean I'm about as bad it gets when we go onto that stereotype. I'm an upper-middle class white male teenager, I've only ever gone to private schools, the largest grade I've ever been in was 50 people, I've only seen two fights in my life, but I've still known hardship and so has my family. I may agree with some of his points and I may disagree with others, but being who I am doesn't mean I'm wrong or that my points are invalid.
[QUOTE=Earthen;29760617]Yeah thats fine, but I don't see why he has to make these assumptions. I mean I'm about as bad it gets when we go onto that stereotype. I'm an upper-middle class white male teenager, I've only ever gone to private schools, the largest grade I've ever been in was 50 people, I've only seen two fights in my life, but I've still known hardship and so has my family.[/QUOTE]
"once my mum made me clean my room. i know how you feel, black man, i know how you feel. we are brothers in suffering."
[QUOTE=Earthen;29759916]Refer to my post after that, I said that its only really acceptable around people you know. I was merely commenting on how TH89 always attacks this white male demographic and assumes that all white males act like pretentious, ignorant douchebags.[/QUOTE]
Um, I'm a white male. How can I be attacking myself?
I'm trying to explain that, as a white male, you are not a victim of institutional racism or sexism. In light of that, it's foolish to dismiss the objections of minorities with "I don't see how it's a big deal, just relax and forget about it." except THEY can't forget about it. YOU can, because the next morning you'll wake up and the minorities will have stopped complaining and you'll be able to play your games that cater almost exlusively to your demographic and everything will be great. The minorities will wake up the next day and still be minorities who are treated as abnormal, not important, as people whose lives, perspectives, and opinions aren't considered worth listening to.
Pointing out he's a white male when he dismissing racism and sexism isn't saying being white or male is bad or that he should be ashamed of it, that would be ridiculous. It's pointing out that he lives in a society designed by people like him to benefit people like him, and of COURSE the problems that others experience aren't obvious to him. It's pointing out that he has blind spots in these areas, and that he should be aware of them.
It's pointing out that even though he is used to his own perspective being reinforced and catered to above all others in media, it is not inherently more valid or logical. Minorities spend their entire lives listening to white dudes telling them they're overreacting and "taking it too seriously". It's saying maybe he should spend less time telling people about his point of view (because they're already very familiar with it) and spend more time listening to what others have to say. Why not? You have literally nothing to lose.
[editline]11th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=G-Strogg;29753958]MGS4 portray sexism in a different way. Most of the "sexism" things that happen in that game can actually be justified. I.e Naomi dresses kind of skimpy, and by pressing r1 in certain situations snake can actually look up her dress etc.
But stop and think for a bit. Who's looking up her dress? You? Or snake? Kojima obviously wanted to portray Snake (disregarding the super-soldier part) as the average joe who likes tits and ass. Yes, it is still sexist, but to a certain point. Straight males (whether they admit it or not) DO look at attractive girls, and that's just the way it is.[/QUOTE]
Lots of straight males have a modicum of respect for women and don't try to look up their skirt at every opportunity. That you think that's totally normal and justifiable is kind of unsettling.
[QUOTE=Earthen;29755473]Yeah this really doesn't help your argument. He was pointing out that if you make a joke and everyone realises it was a joke, then it isn't trying to be racist.[/QUOTE]
If the joke is about how black people and everyone in the room is white, it doesn't become not racist because everyone laughed. Except in this case it's a joke made by a bunch of men for the benefit of other men and yeah it's still misogynistic if they think it's funny.
[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;29760274]consider it as satire of sexist ideals, rather than a sexist joke[/QUOTE]
It's not a satire. Not all comedy is satire. It exaggerates and perpetuates a sexist stereotype without making any effort to criticize or subvert it. Al Jolson wasn't satirizing racism. He was wallowing in it.
Huh... all this talk about about sexism reminded me of this one MMORPG that was supposed to come out like 2 years ago.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtA1jSreK84[/media]
I'd play as the females all the time, like a give a fuck.
Well research papers complete, just got to hand it in tommorow.
Cheers for the help guys
I just wanted to point out something really quick.
Although Soul Calibur gets a bad rap sometimes for the revealing outfits, there is one female character that was added in SC4 that actually is fully covered-Hildegard Von Krone. She's covered from head to toe in armor. Ironically, she's shown fighting Ivy in the game's intro.
[img]http://gamersblock.net/gamefluid/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/sc4_pub_2d_hilde1-copy.jpg[/img]
[img]http://0.tqn.com/d/playstation/1/0/Y/8/sc4_pub_ss_hilde_002_psd_jpgcopy.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Joyful Mystery;29770920]I just wanted to point out something really quick.
Although Soul Calibur gets a bad rap sometimes for the revealing outfits, there is one female character that was added in SC4 that actually is fully covered-Hildegard Von Krone. She's covered from head to toe in armor. Ironically, she's shown fighting Ivy in the game's intro.
[img_thumb]http://gamersblock.net/gamefluid/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/sc4_pub_2d_hilde1-copy.jpg[/img_thumb]
[img_thumb]http://0.tqn.com/d/playstation/1/0/Y/8/sc4_pub_ss_hilde_002_psd_jpgcopy.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
Im not trying to be picky but you is overly female and way to good looking for someone you would expect to be a a fighter or even an average women.
we also use stereotypical male.
black guys in games.. is it an intent from companies not to be seen as racist? i personally think they try to include a variety and not really think about it as i dont think i should make notice of it..
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;29771156]Im not trying to be picky but you is overly female and way to good looking for someone you would expect to be a a fighter or even an average women.[/QUOTE]
Well, she's supposed to be a Princess who's been forced into battle to defend her kingdom. With her being royalty you'd expect her to have the funds to keep herself looking good.
[QUOTE=DrPompo;29771194]we also use stereotypical male.
black guys in games.. is it an intent from companies not to be seen as racist? i personally think they try to include a variety and not really think about it as i dont think i should make notice of it..[/QUOTE]
New point made, for example, Jacob in ME2, take 3 guesses as to why the dev's put him in hmm? To be the stereotypical black guy sidekick with a rough past but is really a cool guy deep down... Oh and don't even bring up Miranda...
[QUOTE=DrPompo;29771194]we also use stereotypical male.
black guys in games.. is it an intent from companies not to be seen as racist? i personally think they try to include a variety and not really think about it as i dont think i should make notice of it..[/QUOTE]
Except it's possible to write minority characters who aren't stereotypes.
The choice isn't between "racist minority caricatures" and "no minorities at all," that's a false dichotomy.
[editline]12th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=ElChrisman99;29771334]New point made, for example, Jacob in ME2, take 3 guesses as to why the dev's put him in hmm? To be the stereotypical black guy sidekick with a rough past but is really a cool guy deep down... Oh and don't even bring up Miranda...[/QUOTE]
Jacob's not really a stereotype (although some of his combat lines are pretty corny "videogame black guy" stuff). He's not a very interesting character either, though. He's just sort of there.
[QUOTE=Joyful Mystery;29771234]Well, she's supposed to be a Princess who's been forced into battle to defend her kingdom. With her being royalty you'd expect her to have the funds to keep herself looking good.[/QUOTE]
Strange then because at the time when we still had queens being fat was considered hot.
[QUOTE=TH89;29771453]Except it's possible to write minority characters who aren't stereotypes.
The choice isn't between "racist minority caricatures" and "no minorities at all," that's a false dichotomy.
[editline]12th May 2011[/editline]
Jacob's not really a stereotype (although some of his combat lines are pretty corny "videogame black guy" stuff). He's not a very interesting character either, though. He's just sort of there.[/QUOTE]
Dude, Jacob was my damn island of, "This is the island of make sense". If it wasn't for that I think I would've lost it with the game.
[editline]12th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;29772266]Strange then because at the time when we still had queens being fat was considered hot.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.gogaminggiant.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Fat-Princess-logo.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;29709757]Is it really that strange that I'm not collecting Alyx Vance paper figurines?[/QUOTE]
I'm probably going to get some flak for this, but I still don't see the appeal of Alyx Vance, she's not even all that attractive.
That's why she's designed well. A lot of guys think she's unique looking and hot and a lot of guys don't even care. I love realistic, interestingly attractive people.
[QUOTE=Joyful Mystery;29770920]I just wanted to point out something really quick.
Although Soul Calibur gets a bad rap sometimes for the revealing outfits, there is one female character that was added in SC4 that actually is fully covered-Hildegard Von Krone. She's covered from head to toe in armor. Ironically, she's shown fighting Ivy in the game's intro.
[img_thumb]http://gamersblock.net/gamefluid/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/sc4_pub_2d_hilde1-copy.jpg[/img_thumb]
[img_thumb]http://0.tqn.com/d/playstation/1/0/Y/8/sc4_pub_ss_hilde_002_psd_jpgcopy.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
She's got the physique of a supermodel and her armour is molded right almost skintight. She is also wearing crotchless armour. That is still sexualising her, there's just less pink stuff.
[QUOTE=DuncanFrost;29760974]"once my mum made me clean my room. i know how you feel, black man, i know how you feel. we are brothers in suffering."[/QUOTE]
Yeah, nice one, take it all out of context. Once again, people assume that the only problems worth mentioning are the ones where you lose a leg and have to live on the street. Problems are relative dumbass, I never even explained the hardships, yet you make assumptions.
[editline]12th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=TH89;29761027]Um, I'm a white male. How can I be attacking myself?
I'm trying to explain that, as a white male, you are not a victim of institutional racism or sexism. In light of that, it's foolish to dismiss the objections of minorities with "I don't see how it's a big deal, just relax and forget about it." except THEY can't forget about it. YOU can, because the next morning you'll wake up and the minorities will have stopped complaining and you'll be able to play your games that cater almost exlusively to your demographic and everything will be great. The minorities will wake up the next day and still be minorities who are treated as abnormal, not important, as people whose lives, perspectives, and opinions aren't considered worth listening to.
Pointing out he's a white male when he dismissing racism and sexism isn't saying being white or male is bad or that he should be ashamed of it, that would be ridiculous. It's pointing out that he lives in a society designed by people like him to benefit people like him, and of COURSE the problems that others experience aren't obvious to him. It's pointing out that he has blind spots in these areas, and that he should be aware of them.
It's pointing out that even though he is used to his own perspective being reinforced and catered to above all others in media, it is not inherently more valid or logical. Minorities spend their entire lives listening to white dudes telling them they're overreacting and "taking it too seriously". It's saying maybe he should spend less time telling people about his point of view (because they're already very familiar with it) and spend more time listening to what others have to say. Why not? You have literally nothing to lose.
[editline]11th May 2011[/editline]
Lots of straight males have a modicum of respect for women and don't try to look up their skirt at every opportunity. That you think that's totally normal and justifiable is kind of unsettling.
If the joke is about how black people and everyone in the room is white, it doesn't become not racist because everyone laughed. Except in this case it's a joke made by a bunch of men for the benefit of other men and yeah it's still misogynistic if they think it's funny.
It's not a satire. Not all comedy is satire. It exaggerates and perpetuates a sexist stereotype without making any effort to criticize or subvert it. Al Jolson wasn't satirizing racism. He was wallowing in it.[/QUOTE]
I never said that I thought that institutional racism wasn't a big deal. It is, its a huge problem, but my problem was that it seemed as if you were generalising an entire demographic. Just because I'm part of that demographic does not mean I act like that.
[QUOTE=Earthen;29773626]Yeah, nice one, take it all out of context. Once again, people assume that the only problems worth mentioning are the ones where you lose a leg and have to live on the street. Problems are relative dumbass, I never even explained the hardships, yet you make assumptions.[/QUOTE]
So what hardships have you undergone that are comparable to the years and years of continuous discrimination that women and ethnic minorities have suffered?
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