[QUOTE=TH89;29723958]It's interesting that the progressive movement has become so successfully marginalized by conservatives that even people who express something totally reasonable like "there should be more female characters in games" or "I'm a vegetarian" often hasten to add that it's "not about feminism" or "not about animal rights."[/QUOTE]
Because over the years a lot of people have heard horror stories about the two movements. And we all know how the general populace reacts to horror stories.
[QUOTE=Van-man;29723943]I find that more attractive than the previous Lara Croft designs.
Maybe because that's actually more realistic.
I like 'em realistic.[/QUOTE]
This post is a great example of how sexism impacts the gaming community.
Even someone who is defending the new, less-sexualized character design isn't defending it on the grounds that it's less demeaning to women or less dumb, he's defending it on the grounds that he finds it more attractive. In a game that's supposedly about archaeology and exploration.
[editline]9th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Swilly;29724061]Because over the years a lot of people have heard horror stories about the two movements. And we all know how the general populace reacts to horror stories.[/QUOTE]
Yes, they've heard those horror stories from conservatives whose goal is to marginalize those movements.
A lot of those "horror stories" aren't really horror stories at all. A couple years ago, there were screenshots published of the new Resident Evil, which is set in Africa. One black blogger made a post about how the racial undertones of having a white protagonist slaughtering black people were troublesome. Gamers were outraged and said he was being unfair and reverse racist and the game wasn't racist at all. Lots of them also called him a nigger and the "reason racism still exists."
Then Resident Evil came out. It did indeed feature a white protagonist slaughtering largely black zombies, accompanied by his black sidekick...who was given much lighter skin, straight hair, and an Oxford accent, despite being from Africa. A character who, if you beat the game or whatever, could be dressed in a cheetah-print bikini and tribal war paint. Classy. But that was incidental to the fact that the game also featured a bunch of half-naked black zombies in loincloths literally chucking spears. The player then finds a note that explains that these were city-dwelling black people, and that the zombie virus caused them to "regress" to their "primitive origins." Seriously.
Which is the real horror story here? Is it really a black guy daring to suggest that one of the Almighty Videogames might be racist? Is it the offensive content of the game itself? Or is it how the gaming community reacted to the suggestion that one of their prized videogames might demean and marginalize minorities?
[QUOTE=Folgergeist;29711535]What about duke nukem? he's a stereotypical male
[img_thumb]http://geektourage.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/duke-nukem-foev1.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.hopkinton.k12.ma.us/hsteach/mmcfarland/classes/1st_semester/wpd.05/projects/final/Schillinger-Final/Schillinger-practice2/images/Joey_Tribbiani.jpg[/img]
They have the same chin!!!
[QUOTE=TH89;29724096]This post is a great example of how sexism impacts the gaming community.
Even someone who is defending the new, less-sexualized character design isn't defending it on the grounds that it's less demeaning to women or less dumb, he's defending it on the grounds that he finds it more attractive. In a game that's supposedly about archaeology and exploration.
[editline]9th May 2011[/editline]
Yes, they've heard those horror stories from conservatives whose goal is to marginalize those movements.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't saying its right, I'm just saying are you surprised? Just look at how the NAACP is looked at now.
Finding a game character attractive is sexism how?
Can someone tell me how is it sexist to portray women more sexy?
Isn't sexism hate for women? We love women, a lot.
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29724311]Finding a game character attractive is sexism how?
Can someone tell me how is it sexist to portray women more sexy?[/QUOTE]
If you get a boner to a girl, you're liable for sexual assault charges.
[QUOTE=Swilly;29724163]I wasn't saying its right, I'm just saying are you surprised? Just look at how the NAACP is looked at now.[/QUOTE]
Okay, what does it matter whether it's "surprising" or not? This is the lamest defense people use against progressivism. Nobody said or implied it was [i]surprising[/i] they said it was [i]bad[/i] and that we should try to [i]stop[/i] it.
Where would medical science be if people said "wow, people dying of tuberculosis, are you really surprised about that?"
[QUOTE=Swilly;29724372]If you get a boner to a girl, you're liable for sexual assault charges.[/QUOTE]
What, really? FUCK!
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29724311]Finding a game character attractive is sexism how?
Can someone tell me how is it sexist to portray women more sexy?[/QUOTE]
Finding a game character attractive isn't sexism. Making "is she sexy" the most important attribute of every (or almost every) woman in a videogame, and the first and foremost way you judge said character, is sexist because it assumes that the purpose of women is to be sexy [i]for men[/i], not to, you know, be human beings who accomplish things and have lives.
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29724311]Isn't sexism hate for women? We love women, a lot.[/QUOTE]
No, you love women's bodies, if they are attractive. That's not the same thing as loving women.
[QUOTE=TH89;29724402]Okay, what does it matter whether it's "surprising" or not? This is the lamest defense people use against progressivism. Nobody said or implied it was [i]surprising[/i] they said it was [i]bad[/i] and that we should try to [i]stop[/i] it.
Where would medical science be if people said "wow, people dying of tuberculosis, are you really surprised about that?"[/QUOTE]
...You're putting words in my mouth. I am for the most part progressive, everyone should be treated equal and until we can create a society that sees everyone as a human not female, male, black, white, or green we're going to need incentives for those who are pushed down.
I'm saying its not a surprise that the once proud movements for equal rights have been marginalized because that happens all the time.
[editline]9th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29724487]What, really? FUCK![/QUOTE]
I know, we're all [I]boned.[/I]
Portray people in media and sterotype remains in place.
Therefore a controlled media can also remove a sterotype.
[QUOTE=TH89;29724512]Finding a game character attractive isn't sexism. Making "is she sexy" the most important attribute of every (or almost every) woman in a videogame, and the first and foremost way you judge said character, is sexist because it assumes that the purpose of women is to be sexy [i]for men[/i], not to, you know, be human beings who accomplish things and have lives.
No, you love women's bodies, if they are attractive. That's not the same thing as loving women.[/QUOTE]You can't help it, loving sexy bodies is in our genes. It's natural to love sexy bodies.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;29724567]Portray people in media and sterotype remains in place.
Therefore a controlled media can also remove a sterotype.[/QUOTE]
This is true, but really sad.
[QUOTE=TH89;29724096]This post is a great example of how sexism impacts the gaming community.
Even someone who is defending the new, less-sexualized character design isn't defending it on the grounds that it's less demeaning to women or less dumb, he's defending it on the grounds that he finds it more attractive. In a game that's supposedly about archaeology and exploration.[/quote]
It's not a game about archeology and exploration, it's a game about a hot chick doing archeology and exploration.
Also, I have a girl gamer friend who loved the Lara Croft games. It was her favorite series. I've never ever heard her complain about how it was sexist. Maybe that's because I'm from the Netherlands. We're very open about sexuality and everything, so this whole discussion, with people getting offended for others over such trivial stuff, is pretty damn ridiculous to me.
[QUOTE=TH89;29724096]Yes, they've heard those horror stories from conservatives whose goal is to marginalize those movements.
A lot of those "horror stories" aren't really horror stories at all. A couple years ago, there were screenshots published of the new Resident Evil, which is set in Africa. One black blogger made a post about how the racial undertones of having a white protagonist slaughtering black people were troublesome. Gamers were outraged and said he was being unfair and reverse racist and the game wasn't racist at all. Lots of them also called him a nigger and the "reason racism still exists."
Then Resident Evil came out. It did indeed feature a white protagonist slaughtering largely black zombies, accompanied by his black sidekick...who was given much lighter skin, straight hair, and an Oxford accent, despite being from Africa. A character who, if you beat the game or whatever, could be dressed in a cheetah-print bikini and tribal war paint. Classy. But that was incidental to the fact that the game also featured a bunch of half-naked black zombies in loincloths literally chucking spears. The player then finds a note that explains that these were city-dwelling black people, and that the zombie virus caused them to "regress" to their "primitive origins." Seriously.
Which is the real horror story here? Is it really a black guy daring to suggest that one of the Almighty Videogames might be racist? Is it the offensive content of the game itself? Or is it how the gaming community reacted to the suggestion that one of their prized videogames might demean and marginalize minorities?[/QUOTE]
I read this and then I noticed your KKK avatar, so I'm not sure if it's serious, or how I should otherwise interpret that argument. If we can joke about that, then I'm sure people don't get pissed off over monkey genes, or whatever.
[QUOTE=Swilly;29724541]...You're putting words in my mouth. I am for the most part progressive, everyone should be treated equal and until we can create a society that sees everyone as a human not female, male, black, white, or green we're going to need incentives for those who are pushed down.
I'm saying its not a surprise that the once proud movements for equal rights have been marginalized because that happens all the time.[/QUOTE]
I know, but [i]I'm[/i] saying that saying "it's not surprising" is largely irrelevant to the conversation, but invariably comes up because people (even self-described progressives) use it as a defense mechanism to avoid talking about the issue. They'll hear about something bad and say "yeah, morons doing bad stuff, big surprise" and think to themselves "good thing I'm not a moron like them," thereby excusing themselves of any culpability for society's ills, and any responsibility to think about it any further.
[QUOTE=TH89;29724512]No, you love women's bodies, if they are attractive. That's not the same thing as loving women.[/QUOTE]
Love video game characters personalities eh?
Japan has a whole industry based off that :tinfoil:
And again there's a difference between games and real life, and thank goodness for that.
[QUOTE=johan_sm;29724591]You can't help it, loving sexy bodies is in our genes. It's natural to love sexy bodies.[/QUOTE]
Actually its purely societal. In the Dark Ages, men lusted after thicker women, its not the fact they're in our genes, it was seen at the time as an advantage.
[editline]9th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=TH89;29724610]I know, but [i]I'm[/i] saying that saying "it's not surprising" is largely irrelevant to the conversation, but invariably comes up because people (even self-described progressives) use it as a defense mechanism to avoid talking about the issue. They'll hear about something bad and say "yeah, morons doing bad stuff, big surprise" and think to themselves "good thing I'm not a moron like them," thereby excusing themselves of any culpability for society's ills, and any responsibility to think about it any further.[/QUOTE]
But I constantly run into discussions like this on Facepunch :v:
If I wanted to avoid them, I would just stop coming here.
[QUOTE=V12US;29724601]Also, I have a girl gamer friend who loved the Lara Croft games. It was her favorite series. I've never ever heard her complain about how it was sexist.[/QUOTE]
And I know lots of girls who HAVE complained about it. So? That's like trotting out your "black friend" to justify calling other black people the n-word.
[QUOTE=V12US;29724601]this whole discussion, with people getting offended for others over such trivial stuff, is pretty damn ridiculous to me.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://hoydenabouttown.com/20110403.9735/dont-mistake-expressing-contempt-for-taking-offense/[/url]
Racism, sexism and all that should be turned into comedic jokes everybody can laugh at, instead of random people popping out and saying it offended them in some way and must be removed.
I don't like the extremes of hate or being worried to the point you are terrified of what you will do because it offends people.
When I had religious and social education I did amusing graffiti on all my jotters (Mainly various religious leaders consuming mushrooms or smoking questionable things) which greatly annoyed the teacher, but the rest of the class, made up of a large mix of various cultures and nationalities found it to be greatly amusing.
I laugh at jokes about people from Scotland, despite having lived there my entire life. It seems to be that many people are greatly offended too easily nowadays because they have the ability to complain about it.
[QUOTE=TH89;29724512]Finding a game character attractive isn't sexism. Making "is she sexy" the most important attribute of every (or almost every) woman in a videogame, and the first and foremost way you judge said character, is sexist because it assumes that the purpose of women is to be sexy [i]for men[/i], not to, you know, be human beings who accomplish things and have lives.[/quote]
It's a game, not some sort of philosophical journey to discover the meaning of life. Jesus.
[QUOTE=TH89;29724512]No, you love women's bodies, if they are attractive. That's not the same thing as loving women.[/QUOTE]
Love and lust are two entirely different things. If someone cannot tell them apart, there's something wrong with them, and I seriously doubt videogames or any other media is to blame. Decades of porn hasn't degraded mankind into a rape society, so I very much doubt videogames will.
[QUOTE=Swilly;29724615]Actually its purely societal. In the Dark Ages, men lusted after thicker women, its not the fact they're in our genes, it was seen at the time as an advantage.
[/QUOTE]
It's in our genes to love sexy bodies, not thin or fat bodies. Sexy ones.
[QUOTE=Van-man;29724613]And again there's a difference between games and real life, and thank goodness for that.[/QUOTE]
Media, even fictional media, plays a strong role in perpetuating a culture's values and ideas. Gamers don't like to hear this, somewhat understandably, because they immediately associate it with the "games cause violence!" movement and feel like it's a personal attack. But ask yourself this--if media doesn't influence people's ideas, why is there a multi-billion dollar ad industry?
Just because something isn't real doesn't make it except from criticism.
[QUOTE=V12US;29724751]Love and lust are two entirely different things. If someone cannot tell them apart, there's something wrong with them, and I seriously doubt videogames or any other media is to blame. Decades of porn hasn't degraded mankind into a rape society, so I very much doubt videogames will.[/QUOTE]
I don't know what a "rape society" is, a society where 1 in 6 women will be raped in her lifetime (that portion is much higher if you're just looking at college students) a society that spends a lot of time telling women how to not to get raped but very little time telling men not to rape, a society that uses sexual violence (almost always against women) in advertising, is not exactly ideal.
[QUOTE=V12US;29724751]It's a game, not some sort of philosophical journey to discover the meaning of life. Jesus.[/QUOTE]
:allears:
This is always the funniest part. Gamers will freak out and froth at the mouth if someone suggests that games are "not art" but as soon as someone holds them to the same critical standards as movies or books or television, all of a sudden they're "just games" and not meant to be taken so seriously, jeez!
Feminism is bullshit. Women are now equal to men in most countries, what the fuck do they want now?
To bitch about retarded bullshit? "Oh no, this woman in this game has bigger tits than me, ban that game". NO. That's fucking dumb.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;29724826]Feminism is bullshit. Women are now equal to men in most countries, what the fuck do they want now?[/QUOTE]
They want a vibrator that can also cut the grass.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;29724826]Women are now equal to men in most countries.[/QUOTE]
no they aren't
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;29724826]Feminism is bullshit. Women are now equal to men in most countries, what the fuck do they want now?
To bitch about retarded bullshit? "Oh no, this woman in this game has bigger tits than me, ban that game". NO. That's fucking dumb.[/QUOTE]
I am a sheltered teenage male who knows everything about the world!
Read more at ~Facepunch Forums~
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;29724826]Feminism is bullshit. Women are now equal to men in most countries, what the fuck do they want now?
To bitch about retarded bullshit? "Oh no, this woman in this game has bigger tits than me, ban that game". NO. That's fucking dumb.[/QUOTE]
*uses insulting word for a woman as a synonym for complaining*
*assumes the only reason women would be frustrated with being treated as sex objects is because they're not sexy enough*
Women are equal to men you guys!
[QUOTE=ButtsexV2;29724918]no they aren't[/QUOTE]
[url]http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HSP/is_1_4/ai_66678566/[/url]
[url]http://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/stories/1999/05/03/editorial2.html[/url]
[url]http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba392/[/url]
I also recall that in a large number of countries men and women have the same voting rights. (Minus nations that don't practice this democracy thing)
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;29724966][url]http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HSP/is_1_4/ai_66678566/[/url]
[url]http://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/stories/1999/05/03/editorial2.html[/url]
[url]http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba392/[/url][/QUOTE]
Two editorials on business websites and a right-wing think tank think women are treated equally? Well, that changes everything.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;29724966]I also recall that in a large number of countries men and women have the same voting rights. (Minus nations that don't practice this democracy thing)[/QUOTE]
Black men could vote a hundred years ago. That doesn't mean they were treated equally.
[QUOTE=TH89;29724946]*assumes the only reason women would be frustrated with being treated as sex objects is because they're not sexy enough*[/QUOTE]
It's dumb shit to complain about regardless their cause.
[QUOTE=TH89;29724946]*uses insulting word for a woman as a synonym for complaining*[/QUOTE]
What does that have to do with anything
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