[QUOTE=Lankist;17116305]Rated funny because I'm not going to read that.[/QUOTE]
Makes a change.
Short form:
Me: Laws are created for the stability of society, the rights of the individual are secondary.
You: Society is something metaphysical.
Me: Not in my context, no.
You: I disagree.
Gaps in logic are less present in longer version.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17116228]What the fuck are you talking aboot.[/QUOTE]
You said people have rights, and that is why murder is outlawed. Well, where do these rights come from? I do believe you're an athiest.
The last time I made this point, they tried to say that the UN gives us our human rights. Laughable.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;17116370]You said people have rights, and that is why murder is outlawed. Well, where do these rights come from? I do believe you're an athiest.
The last time I made this point, they tried to say that the UN gives us our human rights. Laughable.[/QUOTE]
What?
[editline]12:52AM[/editline]
The UN isn't my personal God.
[editline]12:52AM[/editline]
It's possible to have a set of philosophical ethics without religion.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;17116370]You said people have rights, and that is why murder is outlawed. Well, where do these rights come from? I do believe you're an athiest.
The last time I made this point, they tried to say that the UN gives us our human rights. Laughable.[/QUOTE]
And you happen to think that the 10 commandments are what all laws are based on?
[editline]09:53PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lankist;17116386]What?
[editline]12:52AM[/editline]
The UN isn't my personal God.
[editline]12:52AM[/editline]
It's possible to have a set of philosophical ethics without religion.[/QUOTE]
Possible? It's easy as hell.
[editline]09:54PM[/editline]
What I'm trying to say is, the first recorded set of laws were a secular laws of the Hamurabi Code. This is where all subsequent laws have been based.
I would say that the 'morality' of a government is generally what is best for the stability of the country.
Many of the resulting laws will appear simmilar to religious laws, as they are 'common sense', something that religion has no monopoly over.
Or to rephrase, Religious laws have some degree of utility, but it is sometimes possible to come upon the same law independently. For example, laws prohibiting murder or violence can be found in many seperate cultures, without overlapping religion.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17116386]What?
[editline]12:52AM[/editline]
The UN isn't my personal God.
[editline]12:52AM[/editline]
It's possible to have a set of philosophical ethics without religion.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say specifically that that was your opinion.
However, I must question why you believe as you do. Why do you have these ethics if nothing really matters in the end?
[QUOTE=Jenkem;17116535]I didn't say specifically that that was your opinion.
However, I must question why you believe as you do. Why do you have these ethics if nothing really matters in the end?[/QUOTE]
How does nothing matter in the end in your opinion? Even disregarding that, sureley everything matters in the present?
[QUOTE=Jenkem;17116535]I didn't say specifically that that was your opinion.
However, I must question why you believe as you do. Why do you have these ethics if nothing really matters in the end?[/QUOTE]
How do I believe exactly?
[editline]01:03AM[/editline]
Do you think atheists = anarchists or something?
[editline]01:03AM[/editline]
Just because I don't believe in hell means I think rape and murder is okay?
[editline]01:04AM[/editline]
Just FYI I think hurting people is bad because it fucking hurts people.
[QUOTE=Athelus;17116559]How does nothing matter in the end in your opinion? Even disregarding that, sureley everything matters in the present?[/QUOTE]
No, for an athiest, if there is nothing once you die, whatever happens now has little bearing in the end.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17116566]How do I believe exactly?
[editline]01:03AM[/editline]
Do you think atheists = anarchists or something?
[editline]01:03AM[/editline]
Just because I don't believe in hell means I think rape and murder is okay?
[editline]01:04AM[/editline]
Just FYI I think hurting people is bad because it fucking hurts people.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say that. What I'm getting at is that I find it hard to believe you don't believe there's consequences for anything done or lasting prepercussions while alive, yet you care that this sort of thing goes on. Where do your morals come from? So far you haven't answered me.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;17116651]No, for an athiest, if there is nothing once you die, whatever happens now has little bearing in the end.
I didn't say that. What I'm getting at is that I find it hard to believe you don't believe there's consequences for anything done or lasting prepercussions while alive, yet you care that this sort of thing goes on. Where do your morals come from? So far you haven't answered me.[/QUOTE]
Clearly you did say that because you just said it again.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;17116651]No, for an athiest, if there is nothing once you die, whatever happens now has little bearing in the end.
I didn't say that. What I'm getting at is that I find it hard to believe you don't believe there's consequences for anything done or lasting prepercussions while alive, yet you care that this sort of thing goes on. Where do your morals come from? So far you haven't answered me.[/QUOTE]
Here's a situation; Today you have a chance to live in a nice place, or a place that isn't nice. Tomorrow you die, no afterlife. Choose where you want to be today.
Why should people be bribed into helping others anyway?
**opinion** A secular morality derives from what provides the best social stability, and thus living conditions. **opinion**
[QUOTE=Jenkem;17116535]I didn't say specifically that that was your opinion.
However, I must question why you believe as you do. Why do you have these ethics if nothing really matters in the end?[/QUOTE]
Because our time here matters in the end. Why does the afterlife, something that may not exist matter more than the life you have now? Now matters more than later.
[editline]10:16PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jenkem;17116651]No, for an athiest, if there is nothing once you die, whatever happens now has little bearing in the end.
I didn't say that. What I'm getting at is that I find it hard to believe you don't believe there's consequences for anything done or lasting prepercussions while alive, yet you care that this sort of thing goes on. Where do your morals come from? So far you haven't answered me.[/QUOTE]
....Morals don't need to come from a "God". Hell, your morals don't come from god. If they did, you'd stone disobedient kids, you'd kill all gays, you'd be fine with killing anyone who didn't believe in your god. You just pick and choose, you don't have morals from god either.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;17116651]No, for an athiest, if there is nothing once you die, whatever happens now has little bearing in the end.
I didn't say that. What I'm getting at is that I find it hard to believe you don't believe there's consequences for anything done or lasting prepercussions while alive, yet you care that this sort of thing goes on. Where do your morals come from? So far you haven't answered me.[/QUOTE]
Our morals come from the societal agreement that we shall not infringe on each others rights as long as nobody infringes on ours. If you want to be robotic about it.
Personally they come from the idea that hurting people = bad.
[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17116802]Our morals come from the societal agreement that we shall not infringe on each others rights as long as nobody infringes on ours. If you want to be robotic about it.
Personally they come from the idea that hurting people = bad.[/QUOTE]
Religious morality isn't about doing things because they're good things to do. It's about doing everything possible to get into heaven and look good, nothing about being good.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;17116998]Religious morality isn't about doing things because they're good things to do. It's about doing everything possible to get into heaven and look good, nothing about being good.[/QUOTE]
Er... yeah. So?
[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17117086]Er... yeah. So?[/QUOTE]
More towards defeating his argument, just happened to quote you for that use.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;17116651]No, for an athiest, if there is nothing once you die, whatever happens now has little bearing in the end.
I didn't say that. What I'm getting at is that I find it hard to believe you don't believe there's consequences for anything done or lasting prepercussions while alive, yet you care that this sort of thing goes on. Where do your morals come from? So far you haven't answered me.[/QUOTE]
Surely then Atheist ethics are better?
We have only one life, and thus we must make every attempt to improve it for everyone.
Rather than.
OH WELL LOL YOU FUCKED UP, HAVE ANOTHER GO
[editline]08:39AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17117086]Er... yeah. So?[/QUOTE]
being good for the purpose of getting a reward, isn't being good at all.
Google the ethics of Immanuel Kant.
He's one boring motherfucker, but he makes good points on this.
Laws against drugs are in place to keep you working and making money for people and not doing drugs.
[QUOTE=Malumbre;17109807]Exactly.
Drugs shouldn't be illegal, but certain things should be during said drug use, like causing disturbances, violence, damage, etc., which is basically how it is with alcohol. As long as you keep to yourself, you're cool.[/QUOTE]
you can't keep to yourself when you're on hard substances, trust me, I know
[QUOTE=SickJits;17117991]you can't keep to yourself when you're on hard substances, trust me, I know[/QUOTE]
Ok, so you can't keep your cool that means everyone can't.
Love the logic.
[QUOTE=SickJits;17117991]you can't keep to yourself when you're on hard substances, trust me, I know[/QUOTE]
... I keep my shit cool, hardly anyone I know in real life knows that I do drugs, besides the ones I do drugs with. I can keep my shit on the down low. Most people can.
[editline]01:39AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Traxxasred;17117987]Laws against drugs are in place to keep you working and making money for people and not doing drugs.[/QUOTE]
You can work while you're high. Amphetamines can keep you more focused on the task at hand, weed can relax you. The laws in place that keep us from doing drugs do a grand total of shit all, and regardless, it's our choice whether we want to do drugs or not. Not yours, or the governments.
[QUOTE=Traxxasred;17117987]Laws against drugs are in place to keep you working and making money for people and not doing drugs.[/QUOTE]
I don't do anything hard, but I smoke weed. I still go to work.
[editline]04:57AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=SickJits;17117991]you can't keep to yourself when you're on hard substances, trust me, I know[/QUOTE]
No, you can't keep to yourself when you're on hard substances.
Drugs should be legal. People will do them whether it's illegal, or legal. Personal morality should not be legislated, freedom over rides morality as long as the freedom is not hurting other people. Drug use that effects family/friends does not count as long as the person is 18 and is not physically harming them or taking their possetions, emotional harm is not illegal as far as I know. If they do not like the persons choice to use drugs, then they should kick that person out of their house/ not associate with them/ try to get them to sober up. It's that persons choice to use drugs just as it's anyone elses not to take drugs. They should also face the consequences that come with it that choice.
[editline]09:13AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=SickJits;17117991]you can't keep to yourself when you're on hard substances, trust me, I know[/QUOTE]
you'd be suprised if everyone that used drugs told you.
[QUOTE=5150Luke;17118449]Drugs should be legal. People will do them whether it's illegal, or legal.[/QUOTE]
Though I feel generally ambivalent on the subject at hand, I don't think you can justify legalizing something, simply because the state can't contain it.
[QUOTE=Taishu;17118477]Though I feel generally ambivalent on the subject at hand, I don't think you can justify legalizing something, simply because the state can't contain it.[/QUOTE]
that alone does not justify it, it's one of many reasonings for the legalization of substances.
[QUOTE=5150Luke;17118495]that alone does not justify it, it's one of many reasonings for the legalization of substances.[/QUOTE]
Then we should legalize theft as well, seeing as how the state is unable to contain that.
[QUOTE=Taishu;17118531]Then we should legalize theft as well, seeing as how the state is unable to contain that.[/QUOTE]
Did you read what I fucking posted?
It should never have ever been illegal in the first place. There is no real reason for it to be other than personal choice becoming legislation.
[editline]02:29AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Taishu;17118531]Then we should legalize theft as well, seeing as how the state is unable to contain that.[/QUOTE]
That's entirely different and out of context. Theft is illegal because it is a loss, or a destruction of property. Drugs shouldn't be illegal because they are neither a loss of life, or a loss/destruction of property. They are entirely a personal decision that should not be part of legislation.
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