Laws shouldn't be based on morality - General

[QUOTE=KingPurge;17132780]Then you're just changing the word opinion to moral and calling it something else. Morals are supposed high grounds that everyone holds. This is why morality is not what laws are based on, nor are they true.[/QUOTE] Morals are an opinion, it is an opinion you base your life around and what you hold true. [QUOTE=Lankist;17132757]Law in first world countries is not based on morals, it is based on individual choice. Almost every law has to serve the sole purpose of ensuring an individual's ability to live their life as they see fit. i.e. you cannot murder someone because you are impeding their ability to live their own life in their own volition. The basis of almost all legitimate first world law and in any country that can be called a free country is that the individual can do ANYTHING, so long as they do not keep another individual from the same. [editline]12:52AM[/editline] The only moral laws we have in the US are holdovers from centuries ago. Laws the idiots aren't willing to accept as corrupt. Instead people try to rationalize them in the above criteria.[/QUOTE] A moral guideline in the 'tribe' or 'country' is telling them, "It isn't okay to hurt someone". It is because of morals that they view infringing on other people's lives to be wrong. In the end, morals force themselves into everything that the government does. That is because every person has morals, and every government is made of people. Every action has a reason. People just don't pass laws, they have reasons for passing them. These reasons are why laws are built on morals, and morals forever.

[QUOTE=Neolk;17132823]A moral guideline in the 'tribe' or 'country' is telling them, "It isn't okay to hurt someone". It is because of morals that they view infringing on other people's lives to be wrong. In the end, morals force themselves into everything that the government does. That is because every person has morals, and every government is made of people. Every action has a reason. People just don't pass laws, they have reasons for passing them. These reasons are why laws are built on morals.[/QUOTE] You aren't reading the words I say. This is not a philosophical discussion. This is the fact of the matter. You are wrong, repeating yourself won't change that. This is prelaw 101 shit. [editline]12:58AM[/editline] You ought stop arguing semantics and fucking listen. [editline]12:59AM[/editline] If what I were saying were enforced morality, people would not be allowed to fight against it. But people are, protest for or against ANYTHING is permitted, including our system of law. [editline]12:59AM[/editline] If we were enforcing morality that would not be possible. "Say anything" is not a moral, it is not subjective. It is a universal idea. It defies subjectivity entirely.

[QUOTE=Lankist;17132828]You aren't reading the words I say. This is not a philosophical discussion. This is the fact of the matter. You are wrong, repeating yourself won't change that. This is prelaw 101 shit.[/QUOTE] You are right, it isn't about a philosophical discussion, it is about human nature, and humans shape the world into a place that is comfortable for them. We do things and pass laws that are the 'right thing to do', because they fit in our morals. Your morals say you want to do drugs (just an example, maybe you don't), theirs say drugs are bad. This clash between morals is the problem described in this thread. [QUOTE=Lankist;17132757]Law in first world countries is not based on morals, it is based on individual choice. [/quote] No, all laws are based on morals. [quote]Almost every law has to serve the sole purpose of ensuring an individual's ability to live their life as they see fit. i.e. you cannot murder someone because you are impeding their ability to live their own life in their own volition.[/quote] The reason they view this to be 'wrong' is because their moral compass tells them it is wrong. They were raised to believe this is wrong and thus it makes it easier for the law to exist. Serial killers or murderers challenge this law, and in effect, challenge the morals. But you are quick to shoot them down because you disagree with them, "they have no right in messing with another persons live". This belief in itself is built upon your moral backbone. [quote]The basis of almost all legitimate first world law and in any country that can be called a free country is that the individual can do ANYTHING, so long as they do not keep another individual from the same.[quote] I disagree on 2 respects. 1.) FIrst world countries have more laws than just "don't kill" and 2.) Even if this is their only law, the reason they have laws to begin with are to protect their way of life. A safety net to preserve their basic nature, to preserve their morals and beliefs. [quote]The only moral laws we have in the US are holdovers from centuries ago. Laws the idiots aren't willing to accept as corrupt. Instead people try to rationalize them in the above criteria.[/QUOTE]They may be corrupt to you because you don't agree with them, but their morals tell them that it is right, just as yours tell yourself it is wrong. [quote]If what I were saying were enforced morality, people would not be allowed to fight against it. But people are, protest for or against ANYTHING is permitted, including our system of law.[/quote] Different people hold different morals, hence there will always be a clash and attempt to sway, morals aren't definite, they can shift with time or people or events. [quote]If we were enforcing morality that would not be possible. "Say anything" is not a moral, it is not subjective. It is a universal idea. It defies subjectivity entirely.[/quote] Everything we do has some moral reasoning behind it.

[QUOTE=Neolk;17132898]No, all laws are based on morals.[/QUOTE] You can say that as much as you want but it doesn't stand up against a doctorate, buddy. [editline]01:05AM[/editline] What you're arguing right now is like arguing to a particle physicist that green men inhabit atoms.

[QUOTE=Lankist;17132904]You can say that as much as you want but it doesn't stand up against a doctorate, buddy. [editline]01:05AM[/editline] What you're arguing right now is like arguing to a particle physicist that green men inhabit atoms.[/QUOTE] lol you used my particle physicist example I love you

[QUOTE=Neolk;17132898]This belief in itself is built upon your moral backbone.[/QUOTE] No it isn't. That isn't what my MORALITY dictates at all. [editline]01:07AM[/editline] My morality is all but nonexistent in the conventional sense.

[QUOTE=Lankist;17132904]You can say that as much as you want but it doesn't stand up against a doctorate, buddy. [/QUOTE] That's fine, you have some moral backbone within yourself that is making you disagree with me, that's fine.

It's cool how you're trying to tell me how I think though. By cool I mean pompous and fucking stupid. [editline]01:08AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Neolk;17132949]That's fine, you have some moral backbone within yourself that is making you disagree with me, that's fine.[/QUOTE] I have an education that is making me disagree with you. As I have said before, my morality does not agree with the reality of the situation.

[QUOTE=Lankist;17132937]No it isn't. That isn't what my MORALITY dictates at all. [editline]01:07AM[/editline] My morality is all but nonexistent in the conventional sense.[/QUOTE] So you think, but your morality defines all the actions you take. The things you view as right or wrong effect each other on a grand scale.

[QUOTE=Neolk;17132949]That's fine, you have some moral backbone within yourself that is making you disagree with me, that's fine.[/QUOTE] Do you have any idea what you're saying anymore, because it doesn't make sense. "You disagree with me this is a MORAL JUDGMENT" Hate to break it to you, buddy, but no it isn't.

[QUOTE=Neolk;17132962]So you think, but your morality defines all the actions you take. The things you view as right or wrong effect each other on a grand scale.[/QUOTE] And your psychological qualifications are? [editline]01:09AM[/editline] [QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;17132967]Do you have any idea what you're saying anymore, because it doesn't make sense. "You disagree with me this is a MORAL JUDGMENT" Hate to break it to you, buddy, but no it isn't.[/QUOTE] He doesn't even realize who he's talking to. This is why people need to read before posting.

[QUOTE=Lankist;17132968]And your psychological qualifications are?[/QUOTE] Lol, wow. Everything you do you do for a reason. You don't just pick up shit randomly and eat it, you have a reason to do something. You have guidelines in your life, hence morals. To not think so would be pretty daft of you.

[QUOTE=Neolk;17132949]That's fine, you have some moral backbone within yourself that is making you disagree with me, that's fine.[/QUOTE] Or maybe you're just fucking wrong? [editline]10:11PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Neolk;17132989]Lol, wow. Everything you do you do for a reason. You don't just pick up shit randomly and eat it, you have a reason to do something. You have guidelines in your life, hence morals. To not think so would be pretty daft of you.[/QUOTE] ...That isn't what morals are. God damn.

[QUOTE=Neolk;17132989]Lol, wow. Everything you do you do for a reason. You don't just pick up shit randomly and eat it, you have a reason to do something. You have guidelines in your life, hence morals. To not think so would be pretty daft of you.[/QUOTE] What the fuck are you talking about. You're pretending objectivity does not exist. You don't need to have a divine cause to do something or think something. My system of morality is fairly sadistic and leaning toward sociopathy. But that has absolutely no effect on the REALITY of the situation.

[QUOTE=Neolk;17132989]You don't just pick up shit randomly and eat it, you have a reason to do something.[/QUOTE] Like chicken? THAT'S A MORALITY. You don't even seem to know what morals are yet you act like the source of all knowledge about them.

[quote] Do you have any idea what you're saying anymore, because it doesn't make sense. "You disagree with me this is a MORAL JUDGMENT" Hate to break it to you, buddy, but no it isn't. [/quote] I'm saying morals shape you and all the actions you do. Hence, everything you do can be traced back to morals because you don't do things that conflict with your values.

[QUOTE=Neolk;17133005]I'm saying morals shape you and all the actions you do. Hence, everything you do can be traced back to morals because you don't do things that conflict with your values.[/QUOTE] My actions are not the law, buddy. The law isn't human, it is objectivity incarnate.

[QUOTE=Lankist;17133002]You're pretending objectivity does not exist.[/QUOTE] Some people honestly don't think it does. [editline]01:13AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Lankist;17133014]My actions are not the law, buddy. The law isn't human, it is objectivity incarnate.[/QUOTE] Ideally.

How about this, let us all see what we think morals means. That is where the problem is coming from I think. For me: Morals are the personal guidelines within a person that dictates all the actions he/she takes. They aren't the voice in your head that tells you what is right or wrong, they are the thing the voice in your head looks at. They are the reason you do anything, because your morals are everything.

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;17133018]Some people honestly don't think it does.[/quote] My morality dictates those people need to be culled from the earth. That doesn't mean that goes into law. [quote]Ideally.[/QUOTE] Any law that isn't or hasn't been objective is slowly on its way out the door. That's why we're reforming age of consent laws, prostitution laws, drug laws, sex laws, etc. There is law and then there is morality masquerading as law. The latter is dying, rightfully so. [editline]01:15AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Neolk;17133026]How about this, let us all see what we think morals means. That is where the problem is coming from I think. For me: Morals are the personal guidelines within a person that dictates all the actions he/she takes. They aren't the voice in your head that tells you what is right or wrong, they are the thing the voice in your head looks at. They are the reason you do anything, because your morals are everything.[/QUOTE] We've been through this. And that is not how the term morality is defined. You are confusing morality with rationality.

Besides: there is no such thing as objectivity. Just because a belief is common doesn't mean it is always going to be like that. I disagree, I think that is exactly what morality is. Because you don't have to make a rational decision to make a moral one.

[QUOTE=Neolk;17133063]Besides: there is no such thing as objectivity. Just because a belief is common doesn't mean it is always going to be like that.[/QUOTE] And there you go. You may excuse yourself from the discussion before my morality dictates I make you cry. [editline]01:17AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Neolk;17133063]I disagree, I think that is exactly what morality is.[/QUOTE] That is called a delusion, my boy. You can think it all you want, that doesn't make it so. I think I'm fucking Angelina Jolie right now.

[QUOTE=Neolk;17133063]Besides: there is no such thing as objectivity. Just because a belief is common doesn't mean it is always going to be like that.[/QUOTE] 2 + 2 = 4 is objective. Using the same definitions of numbers and mathematical laws, this will never ever change.

Except the Angelina Jolie from Gia and not Orphanage Jolie.

[QUOTE=Lankist;17133070]And there you go. You may excuse yourself from the discussion before my morality dictates I make you cry. [editline]01:17AM[/editline] That is called a delusion, my boy.[/QUOTE] Or maybe it is correct my good man? If people make laws, and people are governed by morals, laws will always be governed by morals. [quote]2 + 2 = 4 is objective. Using the same definitions of numbers and mathematical laws, this will never ever change. [/quote] In another world or another universe, 2+2 could equal fish. And fine, if you use the same definition of laws and numbers, it will never change, fine. But that would mean people using the same definition of what is morally correct. Thats like saying 2+2=4, objective, so abortion is wrong, also objective. That isn't the case. another universe is our opinion.

[QUOTE=Neolk;17133063]Because you don't have to make a rational decision to make a moral one.[/QUOTE] Yes you do, because if your moral system does not dictate that you do what is rational, you are a fucking douchebag.

... I think i'll rage soon. Just because you disagree doesn't make you right. It makes you objective. So obviously you fucking believe it objectivity. It's real. It's more real than morality.

[QUOTE=Neolk;17133087]Or maybe it is correct my good man? If people make laws, and people are governed by morals, laws will always be governed by morals.[/QUOTE] And I presume you think the same of scientific study.

[QUOTE=KingPurge;17133093]... I think i'll rage soon. Just because you disagree doesn't make you right. It makes you objective. So obviously you fucking believe it objectivity. It's real. It's more real than morality.[/QUOTE] Indeed, if there is no such thing as objectivity, you cannot reasonably disagree with anything.

[QUOTE=Neolk;17133087]In another world or another universe, 2+2 could equal fish. And fine, if you use the same definition of laws and numbers, it will never change, fine. But that would mean people using the same definition of what is morally correct. Thats like saying 2+2=4, objective, so abortion is wrong, also objective. That isn't the case. another universe is our opinion.[/QUOTE] What objective basis do you have for making such an assertion?