Help legalize Organ donation for inmates on death row. - General

[QUOTE=Falchion;32653227]Democracy has been fucked up to it's modern form where it is dictated by voters and citizens not just giving a shit. How do I know this is not the case here?[/QUOTE] I am confused, are you implying that I may have started a petition because i do not give a shit? Because I assure you it is the opposite

Well, it's the logical thing to do; making the most of available resources. I guess the warden in charge of Death by Organ Donation would technically be the head of Human Resources, too. If it increases the number of organ donors in medicine, then I guess it'd be the right thing to do. I'd contribute but technically i'm not a U.S citizen.

[QUOTE=imptastick;32652096]First I already stated that when people use logical arguments like this to display their opinions it is fine, just back up your arguments with statistical/factual evidence. I can not debate opinion or tell you your opinion is wrong, but maybe if you understood why I am doing this you would understand. The main reason I am doing this is because I know people who have been saved by organ donation, and I know many die waiting on a transplant. To tell the truth I would kill a hundred rapists and murders if it could have saved these innocent people. The death penalty is going nowhere anytime soon, but we can improve the system.[/QUOTE] Maybe I would understand why you wrote up a petition if I knew that you knew people who have been saved by organ donation? Why? I'm am truly sorry for that, but I frankly don't think that implementing a policy that will ensure the death penalty will not be abolished in the foreseeable future is the answer. Plenty of executions in the US within the last half-century have been extraordinarily dodgy (see the last one for a prime example), and the justice system is not by any means lacking for flaws. Are you fine with the possibility of taking organs from people who are killed by the state, but are actually innocent? I have known people who have had organ transplants. I have known people who need organs. I give blood; I am an organ donor. I do not believe in the death penalty. And I do not believe in implementing policies that will make more prisoners die for crimes they may not have actually committed.

[QUOTE=devotchkade;32653630]Maybe I would understand why you wrote up a petition if I knew that you knew people who have been saved by organ donation? Why? I'm am truly sorry for that, but I frankly don't think that implementing a policy that will ensure the death penalty will not be abolished in the foreseeable future is the answer. Plenty of executions in the US within the last half-century have been extraordinarily dodgy (see the last one for a prime example), and the justice system is not by any means lacking for flaws. Are you fine with the possibility of taking organs from people who are killed by the state, but are actually innocent? I have known people who have had organ transplants. I have known people who need organs. I give blood; I am an organ donor. I do not believe in the death penalty. And I do not believe in implementing policies that will make more prisoners die for crimes they may not have actually committed.[/QUOTE] If an innocent person is put to death of course I am going to be upset, but I would still take their organs if they have to die anyway. I don't believe this will increase the number of death penalties very much, most juries are not going to put a person they think are innocent to death just for their organs.

Woah, I never knew that it wasn't allowed. I'm signing the petition right now.

[QUOTE=imptastick;32654233]If an innocent person is put to death of course I am going to be upset, but I would still take their organs if they have to die anyway. I don't believe this will increase the number of death penalties very much, most juries are not going to put a person they think are innocent to death just for their organs.[/QUOTE] Why wouldn't they? If someone is convicted of aggravated or felony murder, why wouldn't the jury sentence them to be executed if they think that their death will be a positive thing, through their organs? There is much, much more of an incentive to kill them if that's the case, rather than sentencing them to life. Also, you haven't addressed the criticism that it will likely mean that the death penalty is indeed not abolished in the near future (on the grounds that killing them is beneficial to society, so why should it be outlawed?).

24,988 signatures needed by the 4th of November to reach our goal!

Oh crap, never thought of that. Corruption for the sake of organ grinding; now it doesn't seem so worth it.

[QUOTE=ironman17;32654373]Oh crap, never thought of that. Corruption for the sake of organ grinding; now it doesn't seem so worth it.[/QUOTE] Sorry, need clarification - were you referring to me? Sarcasm? Also, guys, you know who else does this? China. [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4921116.stm]And their use of organs from prisoners is criticized by many transplant surgeons and organizations because of this type of corruption. [/url]

[QUOTE=devotchkade;32654428]Sorry, need clarification - were you referring to me? Sarcasm? Also, guys, you know who else does this? China. [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4921116.stm]And their use of organs from prisoners is criticized by many transplant surgeons and organizations because of this type of corruption. [/url][/QUOTE] That is without consent and the organs are sold, which is illegal in the USA, and as our country is now most people spend almost as much time on death row as a normal inmate spends in regular prison. most people spend 10-30 years on death row before execution. So doing it just for organs would not make sense. I have explained that even if this is not done the death penalty will be here for years to come, your saying that a jury would send a person to death because of this would be unlikely as most inmates would just say they refuse to donate if that started happening.

[QUOTE=imptastick;32654571]That is without consent and the organs are sold, which is illegal in the USA, and as our country is now most people spend almost as much time on death row as a normal inmate spends in regular prison. I have explained that even if this is not done the death penalty will be here for years to come, your saying that a jury would send a person to death because of this would be unlikely as most inmates would just say they refuse to donate if that started happening.[/QUOTE] It's not without consent. There have been allegations that China does do it without consent, but the official policy is that they need written consent from the prisoner. They also stopped selling organs. Doesn't change the fact that a lot of transplant surgeons think it is unethical. Also, not true - many people on death row would choose to donate their organs whether or not they were innocent or whether they believed they received a harsh sentence for organ donation. I'm saying that why would the US EVER stop the death penalty if they believe it is a good thing and is a wholly beneficial practice to society? I'm not talking about a few years down the track, I'm talking about as long as the US is going. Public perception would have it that organ donation = good, therefore killing prisoners = good, therefore death penalty = good. This would make the death penalty seem like a great thing when it is not.

[QUOTE=devotchkade;32654644]It's not without consent. There have been allegations that China does do it without consent, but the official policy is that they need written consent from the prisoner. They also stopped selling organs. Doesn't change the fact that a lot of transplant surgeons think it is unethical. Also, not true - many people on death row would choose to donate their organs whether or not they were innocent or whether they believed they received a harsh sentence for organ donation. I'm saying that why would the US EVER stop the death penalty if they believe it is a good thing and is a wholly beneficial practice to society? I'm not talking about a few years down the track, I'm talking about as long as the US is going. Public perception would have it that organ donation = good, therefore killing prisoners = good, therefore death penalty = good. This would make the death penalty seem like a great thing when it is not.[/QUOTE] That's the cool thing about democracy, if the majority of the public thinks it is good then it happens, your argument is assuming that this should not be done because then most people would like it?

[QUOTE=imptastick;32654692]That's the cool thing about democracy, if the majority of the public thinks it is good then it happens, your argument is assuming that this should not be done because then most people would like it?[/QUOTE] Democracy doesn't always work that way, but if the states who do execute people (usually the Republican states) want to keep executing people, this could only be used as a positive thing for them, and they could count upon increased support. Again, support either way doesn't mean that something will be put into place or abolished (see gay marriage or the death penalty itself), but increased support from the public could only mean that it takes longer for the death penalty to be taken away entirely.

[QUOTE=devotchkade;32654746]Democracy doesn't always work that way, but if the states who do execute people (usually the Republican states) want to keep executing people, this could only be used as a positive thing for them, and they could count upon increased support. Again, support either way doesn't mean that something will be put into place or abolished (see gay marriage or the death penalty itself), but increased support from the public could only mean that it takes longer for the death penalty to be taken away entirely.[/QUOTE] I am going to stop this debate, we both are not going to get the other to change their opinion I respect you point of view, but I feel like this is the right thing to do so I am going to keep finding people to sign.

[QUOTE=imptastick;32654692]That's the cool thing about democracy, if the majority of the public thinks it is good then it happens, your argument is assuming that this should not be done because then most people would like it?[/QUOTE] What? How is tyranny of the majority a good thing? [editline]7th October 2011[/editline] Of course I'm strongly against the death penalty because I thought we've become more civilized than 'kill em dey evil!' so I'd never support this.

[QUOTE=imptastick;32654789]I am going to stop this debate, we both are not going to get the other to change their opinion I respect you point of view, but I feel like this is the right thing to do so I am going to keep finding people to sign.[/QUOTE] You can't refute what I'm saying, so you're just going to stop addressing me? I'm not personally setting out to change [i]your[/i] mind. I'm critiquing your views on something, but I'm concurrently addressing anyone who thinks this is a good idea, or hasn't decided their views on the subject. I'm also going to object to it on its own merits, in and of itself.

well their inmates so there's a 100% chance their organs are fucked from drugs and what not, so it could lead to a disaster, although tellin people that you got your new kidney from that kid that massacred 50 people a couple weeks ago would be a cool tale to tell.

[QUOTE=geoface;32655255]well their inmates so there's a 100% chance their organs are fucked from drugs and what not[/QUOTE] 100%, eh? That sounds super scientific!

[QUOTE=devotchkade;32655093]You can't refute what I'm saying, so you're just going to stop addressing me? I'm not personally setting out to change [i]your[/i] mind. I'm critiquing your views on something, but I'm concurrently addressing anyone who thinks this is a good idea, or hasn't decided their views on the subject. I'm also going to object to it on its own merits, in and of itself.[/QUOTE] You seem to think we should not do it because you think it will stop the death penalty from being abolished. I can tell you the death penalty is going to be a part of our legal system for a long time, rather than just complain about the system I am trying to change it for the better. I want to stop debating because you have said the same thing over and over. Not because I cant refute what your saying but because you argue with opinion and speculation not hard facts. [editline]6th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Contag;32655039]What? How is tyranny of the majority a good thing? [editline]7th October 2011[/editline] Of course I'm strongly against the death penalty because I thought we've become more civilized than 'kill em dey evil!' so I'd never support this.[/QUOTE] This is not about whether the death penalty is wrong, but rather if we should save lives of others if they are going to die anyway. I am not saying that the majority is always right but with our current system the majority wins, so if you are the minority you should use facts to support your arguments, I listed three for my side in the OP please show me cold hard facts so i can logically debate this.

A large majority of criminals having various blood trnsmitable diseases or a history of drug use would rule them out of being viable donors

[QUOTE=Skellyhell;32656047]A large majority of criminals having various blood trnsmitable diseases or a history of drug use would rule them out of being viable donors[/QUOTE] That's why all donations would have to be approved by a doctor as well as the inmate

Nobody wants the rotten organs of a criminal inside them. There's been studies proving that people who take organs from people take on some of their personality.

[QUOTE=imptastick;32655826]You seem to think we should not do it because you think it will stop the death penalty from being abolished. I can tell you the death penalty is going to be a part of our legal system for a long time, rather than just complain about the system I am trying to change it for the better. I want to stop debating because you have said the same thing over and over. Not because I cant refute what your saying but because you argue with opinion and speculation not hard facts.[/quote] Excuse me? What are your hard facts? Your 'hard facts' like this?: [QUOTE=imptastick]1. Humane- With this method the individual would be put under anesthesia prior to the operation. The individual would feel no pain in their passing.[/quote] Firstly, that isn't a benefit over the usual type of execution (the vast majority are done under lethal injection). More importantly, that's not a 'hard fact', mate. This isn't something I can really argue with 'hard facts' because it's never been implemented; there aren't statistics around it. I can round up statistics for China, but you'd just argue that they do things differently over there. You've repeatedly ignore my arguments, which is why I keep saying the 'same thing over and over'. I could easily argue that you do the same thing, too. Also, you're arguing for it based mostly off of philosophical principles, so my arguing with statistics isn't going to do shit. [QUOTE=imptastick;32655826][editline]6th October 2011[/editline] This is not about whether the death penalty is wrong, but rather if we should save lives of others if they are going to die anyway. I am not saying that the majority is always right but with our current system the majority wins, so if you are the minority you should use facts to support your arguments, I listed three for my side in the OP please show me cold hard facts so i can logically debate this.[/QUOTE] You're incorrect that the 'majority wins'. In fact, because America does not make voting mandatory, you have less than 25% of the population deciding who wins - that's not the majority by far. And how is this not a logical debate? I'm using logic to reject your argument; you might disagree with my logic, but that doesn't mean it's not a logical debate.

[QUOTE=devotchkade;32656665]Excuse me? What are your hard facts? Your 'hard facts' like this?: Firstly, that isn't a benefit over the usual type of execution (the vast majority are done under lethal injection). More importantly, that's not a 'hard fact', mate. This isn't something I can really argue with 'hard facts' because it's never been implemented; there aren't statistics around it. I can round up statistics for China, but you'd just argue that they do things differently over there. You've repeatedly ignore my arguments, which is why I keep saying the 'same thing over and over'. I could easily argue that you do the same thing, too. Also, you're arguing for it based mostly off of philosophical principles, so my arguing with statistics isn't going to do shit. You're incorrect that the 'majority wins'. In fact, because America does not make voting mandatory, you have less than 25% of the population deciding who wins - that's not the majority by far. And how is this not a logical debate? I'm using logic to reject your argument; you might disagree with my logic, but that doesn't mean it's not a logical debate.[/QUOTE] Whoa calm down, my reply was badly worded, I meant that it would save lives and money, I did not mean to say that it is more humane as a fact as that is just my opinion. I know this has never been done before so why not at least try it out? All I am saying is that with our current legal system of a non-direct representative democracy the death penalty will be around for a really long time; so rather than have these people die and not have anything good happen, I think we should try to make the system have at least one good thing about it. If you want to make a petition against the death penalty I will sign it, but I feel that it is here to stay. Sorry if I came off as disrespectful my only goal here is to help save lives

If this is legalized then maybe more people would be put on death row for the wrong reasons just so we could harvest their organs. Perhaps we should put laws in place to prevent this.

[QUOTE=Warnipple;32657084]If this is legalized then maybe more people would be put on death row for the wrong reasons just so we could harvest their organs. Perhaps we should put laws in place to prevent this.[/QUOTE] a lot of people have expressed this concern, Any specific ideas to keep this from happening

WHAT THE FUCK Were did the punishment go? If anything we should make it more painful for them. Has everyone forgot why they are on death row? Jesus fucking christ what happened to society. No anesthesia. No mercy. We should take their organs even if they dont want to give them. Oh and dont even say that "That would just lower us to their level." No we wouldn't , they harm INNOCENT people.

[QUOTE=AngryChairR;32656552]Nobody wants the rotten organs of a criminal inside them. There's been studies proving that people who take organs from people take on some of their personality.[/QUOTE] Uhh, do you have any verification on this? I'm pretty sure getting a kidney from a law-breaker doesn't make you a law-breaker.

The prohibition of prisoner organ donation protects the human rights of prisoners and is in line with current global ethics. Directly from the world medical association. [quote=World Medical Association]Because prisoners and other individuals in custody are not in a position to give consent freely and can be subject to coercion, their organs must not be used for transplantation except for members of their immediate family.[/quote] [url=http://www.wma.net/en/30publications/10policies/t7/index.html]Source.[/url] I think that the only country in the world that still does this is China, and they are the perfect example of why this isn't a good idea. Almost all of China's organ 'donors' are prisoners whose consent is often either not obtained or obtained in such a way that it is invalid. Corruption is rife and executions are often sped up to facilitate donations and you can be almost certain that many people wouldn't be executed if it weren't for the demand for organs. To put it simply the benefits just don't outweigh the human rights risks, only 46 people were executed in the US in 2010. Even if every single one of these prisoners was willing and able to donate it would be a drop in the bucket as far as the need for organ donations goes. Also note that the Chinese government is taking steps (or are at least claiming to take steps) to eventually prohibit prisoner organ donation. Legalization in the united states wouldn't be a step forward it would be a step backwards.

[QUOTE=flyschy;32662373]The prohibition of prisoner organ donation protects the human rights of prisoners and is in line with current global ethics. Directly from the world medical association. [url=http://www.wma.net/en/30publications/10policies/t7/index.html]Source.[/url] I think that the only country in the world that still does this is China, and they are the perfect example of why this isn't a good idea. Almost all of China's organ 'donors' are prisoners whose consent is often either not obtained or obtained in such a way that it is invalid. Corruption is rife and executions are often sped up to facilitate donations and you can be almost certain that many people wouldn't be executed if it weren't for the demand for organs. To put it simply the benefits just don't outweigh the human rights risks, only 46 people were executed in the US in 2010. Even if every single one of these prisoners was willing and able to donate it would be a drop in the bucket as far as the need for organ donations goes. Also note that the Chinese government is taking steps (or are at least claiming to take steps) to eventually prohibit prisoner organ donation. Legalization in the united states wouldn't be a step forward it would be a step backwards.[/QUOTE] I feel that our justice system is set up in a way where most institutions respect the basic human rights of inmates, While there is most definitely some corruption in our justice system, all death row inmates get to speak to their family and a spiritual counselor of their choosing; all the inmate would have to do is tell them. I feel that it would be difficult to force organ donation onto an inmate with our current system of checks and balances. From those 48 people 368 lives could be directly saved, 96 people could be given sight from cornea transplants, and many others could be helped by other tissues and research. To me that seem like it might be worth a trial run in at least one federal prison. Also we could look at an option for single kidney organ donation for prisoners with life in prison, that would save hundreds of thousands without taking lives.