• Deciding on a college for Game Development. What is your opinion on Full Sail?
    95 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Tudd;38919013]Basically my point. You don't need one.[/QUOTE] Exactly, but you wont need a CS degree either if you want to get into the industry. Most game devs either had degrees not related to games whatsoever or just dropped out. I don't want to work in the industry, but even if I did they would care more about the skills I have learned than the degree I graduated with. If I go to Full Sail only to teach myself everything instead but be able to work with teams of people on developing games, I feel that that experience is most valuable. Being that only 33% graduate, by the end of my first year I will be surrounded by motivated, goal-driven people that work well and know what it means to be in a team. I don't fell like Full Sail is the "School of the future" but I do think it can create great connections between me and others that are fully motivated by developing games. It's a breeding ground for starting small companies, which is what I want to ultimately do.
[QUOTE=Dakattack;38921674]Exactly, but you wont need a CS degree either if you want to get into the industry. Most game devs either had degrees not related to games whatsoever or just dropped out. I don't want to work in the industry, but even if I did they would care more about the skills I have learned than the degree I graduated with. If I go to Full Sail only to teach myself everything instead but be able to work with teams of people on developing games, I feel that that experience is most valuable. Being that only 33% graduate, by the end of my first year I will be surrounded by motivated, goal-driven people that work well and know what it means to be in a team. I don't fell like Full Sail is the "School of the future" but I do think it can create great connections between me and others that are fully motivated by developing games. It's a breeding ground for starting small companies, which is what I want to ultimately do.[/QUOTE] A University degree is a proof of skills, you have met an academic institution's standards for knowledge and skill. If you want to work at a company, your resume, portfolio and interview has to be better than everyone else that is applying. Universities and colleges provide a serious amount of structure to getting it done. When you do it by yourself, you're going to have to do a bunch of grade A projects to show off.
[QUOTE=Dakattack;38921674]Exactly, but you wont need a CS degree either if you want to get into the industry. Most game devs either had degrees not related to games whatsoever or just dropped out. I don't want to work in the industry, but even if I did they would care more about the skills I have learned than the degree I graduated with. If I go to Full Sail only to teach myself everything instead but be able to work with teams of people on developing games, I feel that that experience is most valuable. Being that only 33% graduate, by the end of my first year I will be surrounded by motivated, goal-driven people that work well and know what it means to be in a team. I don't fell like Full Sail is the "School of the future" but I do think it can create great connections between me and others that are fully motivated by developing games. It's a breeding ground for starting small companies, which is what I want to ultimately do.[/QUOTE] But ask yourself this: is it worth risking >$100k of debt on the off-chance you strike it big?
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;38924721]But ask yourself this: is it worth risking >$100k of debt on the off-chance you strike it big?[/QUOTE] Even if I don't, I'll be doing something I really love doing. I am not a wannabe "HEY GUYS LETS GO MAKE AN MMO" kid, I understand what makes a game tick. I'd much rather be in debt and doing something I'm passionate about for a living than being a generic programmer at microsoft with a safety net. If >$100k in debt is the risk, I'm willing to take it. Life for me is taking the leap of faith, even if there is a very small chance for success, I'll take it rather than ensure a safer, more stable life. If I wanted to be financially secure I would have been chosen a different degree.
[QUOTE=Dakattack;38926644]Even if I don't, I'll be doing something I really love doing. I am not a wannabe "HEY GUYS LETS GO MAKE AN MMO" kid, I understand what makes a game tick. I'd much rather be in debt and doing something I'm passionate about for a living than being a generic programmer at microsoft with a safety net. If >$100k in debt is the risk, I'm willing to take it. Life for me is taking the leap of faith, even if there is a very small chance for success, I'll take it rather than ensure a safer, more stable life. If I wanted to be financially secure I would have been chosen a different degree.[/QUOTE] The risk vs reward just doesn't make it worthwhile. It sounds like you're just a little naïve about what you could be getting yourself into. Having a stable life with a safety net is better than risking everything, because then you don't have to gamble on your success determining if you eat tomorrow, and it allows you to truly make what you want. Notch only quit his job [b]after[/b] he realized that he would be better off working on Minecraft.
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;38926873]The risk vs reward just doesn't make it worthwhile. It sounds like you're just a little naïve about what you could be getting yourself into. Having a stable life with a safety net is better than risking everything, because then you don't have to gamble on your success determining if you eat tomorrow, and it allows you to truly make what you want. Notch only quit his job [b]after[/b] he realized that he would be better off working on Minecraft.[/QUOTE] I have a plan B, I'm currently a lighting technician at my high school and my boss is moving down to Florida to work at Disney, she mentioned I would be close by so they said I was welcome to work there when I got out of college. My mom also works for cablevision, and I'll be working there next year, so if I ever wanted to transfer my job down to Florida I'm sure I could. When I said I was taking a risk I meant that I was taking a risk with my career path, not necessarily life itself. I should have worded my last post better, I was being a bit dramatic haha.
Although I'm not American (and don't know American universities that well), these should give you an idea of how rigorous a proper computer science - game design degree might look like. (I'm at Utoronto myself, Engineering. If I do computer engineering>software engineering, I'm fairly certain that most companies will compare it similarly computer science) [url]http://web.cs.toronto.edu/program/ugrad/programs/Game_Design.htm[/url] [url]http://www.mcgill.ca/study/2011-2012/faculties/science/undergraduate/programs/bachelor-science-bsc-major-computer-science-computer-games[/url] [url]http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/comparative-media-studies/cms-608-game-design-fall-2010/index.htm[/url] There's a few courses listed here: [url]http://www.seasoasa.ucla.edu/undergraduates/cs-department-curriculum-updates/curricular-requirements-and-department-information#lower-division-courses[/url] And so on. [b]I went to a game design expo last year, where I met the lead developer of skyrim, along with some other big names. One of the things I asked, was what's more important: game developing experience, or a degree from a university. His reply was the most recent thing you did will be the most important. [/b]My interpretation of that, was that unless you are able to make a masterful portfolio, an university degree would be much more important than game design experience. [url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/vancouverfilmschool/sets/72157629005507835/[/url] By the way, something off topic. I got a information package from Digipen last year when I sent them a transcript of my highschool grades by accident. (Noting their admission requirements...I probably could have gotten in if I wanted to.)
[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;38910503]I currently attend Full Sail.[/QUOTE] I can give a perspective from another for-profit college. I attend (and am soon to graduate from) DeVry University in Irving, Texas. @OP: T-Sonar's advice is the one you want to be listening to. People will quickly bash for-profit colleges who have never attended one. Their advice is usually inaccurate. [QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;38910503]I was in the game development course for about 6 months before I dropped out.[/QUOTE] This is a common pattern here at DeVry. I was a tutor for a while so I can easily say: DON'T GET A DEGREE IN GAMING IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT ENTAILS. "I want to make games" is a bad reason to get a "game programming" degree. The only people who survive at my school are people who had past programming experience. That said, only reason I considered DeVry was because I could already program, and I wanted to improve my PROGRAMMING. I didn't want to just make games. [QUOTE=Swebonny;38905324]Just do CS and use your knowledge from there to make games. A degree in CS >>>>>>>>>>>> gamedev.[/QUOTE] I somewhat agree with this. Either degree gets your foot in the door and can't hope to teach you everything any job will be looking for. If you get a CS degree, you have to spend time on the side learning gamedev. If you get a gamedev degree you have to spend time learning CS. Getting into a CS related job is easier than getting into a gamedev job. Game companies usually expect past experience, where simulation companies and other technical jobs readily hire entry-level programmers. [QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;38910503]Know this: The game development here is brutal. And I'm not exaggerating. It is INCREDIBLY brutal.[/QUOTE] And, as a result, it's incredibly effective. Anyone who comes in here and says "for-profit colleges just want your money" don't understand for-profit colleges. It is true they will accept [u][b]ANYONE[/b][/u], but that's why for-profit colleges have such a shit graduation rate. [QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;38910503]Full Sail's game development program only has a 33% graduation rate.[/QUOTE] Same thing here at DeVry. [QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;38910503]Because of the way Full Sail is constructed, you get 2 classes per month, which is about 4 hours of lecture and 4 hours of lab.[/QUOTE] I actually think this is incredibly stupid. I'm trying to play devils advocate here but holy shit. Here's the thing: if you have THAT much dedication to do 16 weeks worth of shit in 4, this is the degree for you. Some people can pull it off, but that sort of goes back to the whole 33% graduation rate thing. I'm not going to swing one way or the other. As I said, I go to for-profit and even with the tens of thousands of dollars I have in debt now, I wouldn't have had it any other way. My instructors are amazing and I now work for a government contractor making good money thanks to one of them. I just wanted to make this post so that you understand for-profit because most people posting in here have never been to one and their advice is always slanted.
Workload seems to be similar to what i get. 50ish hours total weekly between lectures, homework,etc. [t]http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/angus725/timetable.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=jalb;38930665]This is a common pattern here at DeVry. I was a tutor for a while so I can easily say: DON'T GET A DEGREE IN GAMING IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT ENTAILS. "I want to make games" is a bad reason to get a "game programming" degree. The only people who survive at my school are people who had past programming experience. That said, only reason I considered DeVry was because I could already program, and I wanted to improve my PROGRAMMING. I didn't want to just make games.[/QUOTE] I already have a good year of programming under my belt, and I'm teaching myself OpenGL at the moment, so yes I want to go to college to [b]imporve[/b] my programming skills. I have been thinking about this for years and have researched it to the end of google; I know what I'm getting into. By the way thanks for the info! You cleared up a lot of contradictions here. I appreciate it :)
Extra credits has an excellent video on this. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmdGZk-fF98[/media]
[QUOTE=NeoDement;38901445]Just gonna say it, don't do games development, it's too vague. Do something else and use that degree to do games [B]art[/B] or games [B]programming[/B] at university level. Or maybe games sound design or something else. But never just pure development, you likely won't learn much of anything unless it's one of the crazy high end ones like DigiPen.[/QUOTE] another thing is that you don't want to force yourself into one industry. you might aspire to become a game developer, but that might not pan out exactly how you imagine it. you want all-purpose programming skills so that you can still make money doing something besides flipping burgers until you get your dream job at an awesome studio.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;38946437]another thing is that you don't want to force yourself into one industry. you might aspire to become a game developer, but that might not pan out exactly how you imagine it. you want all-purpose programming skills so that you can still make money doing something besides flipping burgers until you get your dream job at an awesome studio.[/QUOTE] I don't want to be in the industry! There is no passion and they smell. And I am absolutely positive about making games. It's not just programming that interests me, its drawing, designing, philosophy, marketing, music, storytelling, ...etc. This is the medium in which I would like to express myself. I don't want to be anything else.
Full Sail = For profit school with high drop out rates. Rule of thumb, don't go to for profit schools.
[QUOTE=Dakattack;38947796]I don't want to be in the industry! There is no passion and they smell. And I am absolutely positive about making games. It's not just programming that interests me, its drawing, designing, philosophy, marketing, music, storytelling, ...etc. This is the medium in which I would like to express myself. I don't want to be anything else.[/QUOTE] that's a bit like saying that you would only want to record music, or only film movies. sure, you can have a goal to try and work with one particular medium, but in reality getting into that industry can be tough(there are thousands of people wanting to be game developers/designers, that's a lot of competition). if you aren't the best of the best you better have a backup plan until you can get an opportunity in the industry. i mean i've known talented guys who work at mcdonalds because the industry they want to work in is too competitive and saturated with people.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;38948993]that's a bit like saying that you would only want to record music, or only film movies. sure, you can have a goal to try and work with one particular medium, but in reality getting into that industry can be tough(there are thousands of people wanting to be game developers/designers, that's a lot of competition). if you aren't the best of the best you better have a backup plan until you can get an opportunity in the industry. i mean i've known talented guys who work at mcdonalds because the industry they want to work in is too competitive and saturated with people.[/QUOTE] But developing games is so much more; It's a medium that contains all other mediums. And I just told you I didnt want to be in the industry itself. Surely there will be competition, but indie games are gaining popularity. Which is why I want to go to a school to meet people like myself who are eager to work on games, and to provide the best academics possible for developing them. And I do have a backup plan (stated on last page). I am not too concerned with what the title of my degree says, I am just looking for the classes that can teach me the most about development than any other school. Full sail seems to know what they are talking about when it comes to this, hence the work overload as described by T-Sonar. I made this post to ask if any other colleges were up to snuff, because it seems as if the colleges I'm looking into just say they have game development when it's really a CS course using Unity. I did not make this post to be lectured on how hard the industry is or whether or not I have a secure backup plan or "Why don't you just shut up and take CS?". I have researched these things separately and made my decision on them [i]separately[/i]. The soul purpose of this post was to ask about schools offering Game Development as a College Major.
You seem pretty set in your idea, but you know, most game developers did not major in game development (if anything) My school has no game design program, but I've met a lot of people who are either computer science or animation majors who want to do some indie projects and get into that industry. I don't think you would have trouble finding people with similar ambition. I've yet to every see a legit university even offer that.
[QUOTE=slayer20;38917256]So how does everyone feel about getting a degree in Game Art Design? It seems like most of the discussion is about programming, but what about creating the art for games?[/QUOTE] Don't get any kind of degree in digital art/game art. They usually designed to prey on people who "want to make games" but don't have any experience. In the games industry, when it comes to art, nobody really cares about your degree that much. The most important thing is your portfolio--if you have a good portfolio, you're set, if you don't, you're not. I've seen people with BFAs and even MFAs in digital art who can't get jobs because their art sucks, and the program they were in was irresponsible enough to give them a degree for work that's way below professional standards. It's been said, but if you want to do game art you basically have to study Real Art at a place that will really challenge you. It's difficult, because a lot of Fine Arts programs at colleges are very hippie type "just express yourself, glue straws to a canvas" type stuff that are pretty much a waste of money if you're looking to develop technical ability. If you can find a school that will really hold your feet to the fire with your art, like Art Center in Pasadena or San Jose State's Animation/Illustration program (which I'm in currently) you'll be much better off. Even then, though, how much you get out of it will depend on how much you want to work for it. There's always going to be the person who spends 3 hours a day every day practicing drawing and painting and he or she's going to be competing with you on the jobs market when you both graduate.
[QUOTE=TH89;38952776]Don't get any kind of degree in digital art/game art. They usually designed to prey on people who "want to make games" but don't have any experience. In the games industry, when it comes to art, nobody really cares about your degree that much. The most important thing is your portfolio--if you have a good portfolio, you're set, if you don't, you're not. I've seen people with BFAs and even MFAs in digital art who can't get jobs because their art sucks, and the program they were in was irresponsible enough to give them a degree for work that's way below professional standards. It's been said, but if you want to do game art you basically have to study Real Art at a place that will really challenge you. It's difficult, because a lot of Fine Arts programs at colleges are very hippie type "just express yourself, glue straws to a canvas" type stuff that are pretty much a waste of money if you're looking to develop technical ability. If you can find a school that will really hold your feet to the fire with your art, like Art Center in Pasadena or San Jose State's Animation/Illustration program (which I'm in currently) you'll be much better off. Even then, though, how much you get out of it will depend on how much you want to work for it. There's always going to be the person who spends 3 hours a day every day practicing drawing and painting and he or she's going to be competing with you on the jobs market when you both graduate.[/QUOTE] I'm not super interested in the degree really. I really just want to go to college to better my skills at things I don't really have access to and learn more in a classroom. I find it hard to learn things at my house infront of my computer because I get easily distracted and stuff. But yeah, I understand the whole portfolio over degree thing. My parents don't seem to get it though :/
I'd say never go for a game specific field in Uni, it's almost always never worth the money, really you should take something related to programming or computer science in general and work on game development on the side.
I wouldn't attend Full Sail if I were you. I'm currently a freshman studying Game-design at an engineering college. If I don't like my major, I can easily switch to a different major without having to transfer.
[QUOTE=Dakattack;38952606]But developing games is so much more; It's a medium that contains all other mediums. And I just told you I didnt want to be in the industry itself. Surely there will be competition, but indie games are gaining popularity. Which is why I want to go to a school to meet people like myself who are eager to work on games, and to provide the best academics possible for developing them. And I do have a backup plan (stated on last page). I am not too concerned with what the title of my degree says, I am just looking for the classes that can teach me the most about development than any other school. Full sail seems to know what they are talking about when it comes to this, hence the work overload as described by T-Sonar. I made this post to ask if any other colleges were up to snuff, because it seems as if the colleges I'm looking into just say they have game development when it's really a CS course using Unity. I did not make this post to be lectured on how hard the industry is or whether or not I have a secure backup plan or "Why don't you just shut up and take CS?". I have researched these things separately and made my decision on them [i]separately[/i]. The soul purpose of this post was to ask about schools offering Game Development as a College Major.[/QUOTE] why not start in the open source area, work on mods and help people with games n shit? you can learn by doing and you also save a lot of money. iv been to a private school similar to full sail(though not full sail specifically) and it was way overpriced. [editline]24th December 2012[/editline] if you're really into it i guess you could probably do worse, but it might serve you better to actually get into the game making business rather than go to school for it. and i dont see why you seem to hate calling it an "industry". if you are making games you are in the video game industry whether you are an indie developer or working for EA.
I just finished my first semester at RPI for their GSAS program (Games and Simulation Arts and Sciences) dual majoring with CS. It's a full CS degree with some required game design classes (things like "Game Mechanics" and "Designing Interactive Characters"), and RPI has AI, networking, and graphics courses in the CS department. I would personally recommend going to a school that lets you dual with another major so that you can more easily get jobs outside of the games industry, especially if you're going to be coming out of college with student debt. Students who get a BS in comp sci at RPI will get approximately $75k right out of college, in the games industry $65k. It's all very clearly laid out [url=http://rpi.edu/dept/cdc/CCPD_Annual_Report_2011%20(2).pdf]here[/url]. From a bit of googling, I couldn't find any published salaries for Full Sail graduates. Only that about 80% of game dev graduates got jobs right out of college. And I wouldn't rely on a professor to find bugs in your code, either find similar examples and compare it to your code or ask on StackOverflow or on a forum somewhere (say, the Programming forum here, I help people with OpenGL questions on both) As for meeting other people who are interested in game development, see if the school you're going to has a decently active game development club. You'll definitely see some schools without a game dev major that have a game dev club.
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[QUOTE=yawmwen;38953681]why not start in the open source area, work on mods and help people with games n shit? you can learn by doing and you also save a lot of money. iv been to a private school similar to full sail(though not full sail specifically) and it was way overpriced. [editline]24th December 2012[/editline] if you're really into it i guess you could probably do worse, but it might serve you better to actually get into the game making business rather than go to school for it. and i dont see why you seem to hate calling it an "industry". if you are making games you are in the video game industry whether you are an indie developer or working for EA.[/QUOTE] Well that's why I am developing games now, in high school, so I have a lot of experience before I go to school. And I contemplated not going to school and just saving the money to open a small company or make mods and such, but my parents insisted I should go. I have to agree with them, the only reason I feel like I need to go to school is to meet people and to learn via small groups rather than textbooks. Personally, I hate high school, which is probably why I'm so dead set on going to a school that teaches me what I want to do. I'm tired of learning things that are only slightly related (or not related at all) to what I actually want to do. I just feel like I will be delaying myself if I went to a 4 year school for CS when I really just wanted to study Game Development. And don't say they are the same! It would force me to only develop games in my spare time (as I am now) and I feel that I would hate the experience just like high school. I fear that I will hate it enough to drop out, wasting even more money/time. As far as the 'industry' title, technically yes, both indie developers and employees from Activision are in the same industry. But the markets are totally different; indie games are praised for original ideas and cool, passionate concepts. Activision makes games for the biggest audience possible, and builds games based on a selling idea or popular franchise at the time. In reality, they are in totally separate industries. When I say I don't want to work in the indusrty, I mean that I don't want to work for a AAA company. Indie companies are outside of that scope, therefore, they aren't really in 'the' industry.
Indie games also have a lot more room for amateur artists and people who might not necessarily be hired by major studios. Which isn't to say that there aren't a ton of amazingly talented people working in indie games right now, but "in the industry" usually means someone has not only the intent but also a portfolio and a resume that would get them hired by major studios.
[QUOTE=Dakattack;38956864]Well that's why I am developing games now, in high school, so I have a lot of experience before I go to school. And I contemplated not going to school and just saving the money to open a small company or make mods and such, but my parents insisted I should go. I have to agree with them, the only reason I feel like I need to go to school is to meet people and to learn via small groups rather than textbooks.[/QUOTE] you are going to be spending A LOT of money to meet people dude. have you ever thought about going to conventions, expos, and shit like that and mingling with people? you can meet people who are actually currently in the industry and make contacts.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;38953681]why not start in the open source area, work on mods and help people with games n shit? you can learn by doing and you also save a lot of money.[/QUOTE] This is increasingly becoming a bad idea if you have any interest in actually breaking into the industry proper. With the exception of very rare cases like the Alien Swarm team getting hired by Valve, mods and open-source projects are not a viable way to build a work portfolio. Without something extremely impressive on your resume, you're likely to get passed over in favor of someone with a degree, even if it's just a CS degree. Gaming is a field where there are so many people who want such a small number of jobs, that you need to really stand out to get a good job. If you don't have a college degree you're starting on a bad foot to begin with, and coding mods won't pay the bills. You could get a job with a small indie startup, but the number of indie developers that are successful is vastly outnumbered by the ones that release a game or two and die out, or never manage to release at all. Like I said before, the industry is pretty shitty to work in. A lot can change in a few years, and shoehorning yourself into a particular field with an overspecialized major could be a very bad move. I'm only in Game Design & Development because it's the closest thing to what I actually intend to pursue as a career, and my program is flexible enough that I can market it broadly. I have to echo the suggestion of going for CS, art, or just something not game-specific so you can still be employed if it doesn't pan out.
Valve recommends digipen. [editline]24th December 2012[/editline] And game devs care more about the portfolio than the degree
[QUOTE=catbarf;38964397]This is increasingly becoming a bad idea if you have any interest in actually breaking into the industry proper. With the exception of very rare cases like the Alien Swarm team getting hired by Valve, mods and open-source projects are not a viable way to build a work portfolio. Without something extremely impressive on your resume, you're likely to get passed over in favor of someone with a degree, even if it's just a CS degree. Gaming is a field where there are so many people who want such a small number of jobs, that you need to really stand out to get a good job. If you don't have a college degree you're starting on a bad foot to begin with, and coding mods won't pay the bills. You could get a job with a small indie startup, but the number of indie developers that are successful is vastly outnumbered by the ones that release a game or two and die out, or never manage to release at all. Like I said before, the industry is pretty shitty to work in. A lot can change in a few years, and shoehorning yourself into a particular field with an overspecialized major could be a very bad move. I'm only in Game Design & Development because it's the closest thing to what I actually intend to pursue as a career, and my program is flexible enough that I can market it broadly. I have to echo the suggestion of going for CS, art, or just something not game-specific so you can still be employed if it doesn't pan out.[/QUOTE] he already said he doesnt want to work for a aaa company. he wants to be indie so it seems like if that's his goal he should just get in there and start doing it.
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