Vegetarians - Your thoughts on them - General

[QUOTE=Simski;34693727]Your view of eating meat as barbaric and beastlike is very subjective, an opinion, and an opinion I disagree with. Even so, if we by your previous statement aren't supposed to think that "for some reason we're better than them because we have some sophisticated intellegence", why should we feel ashamed of being beastlike?[/QUOTE] I don't find eating meat barbaric. It's the cause and effect that goes into allowing such a state to be carried out. If you had a little dog, if that breed of dog was used as food and all we did was keep it in little cages and it never got petted once in it's life, never got a decent moment of treatment, all it did was whine and wimper for three years until it was of proper weight and mass for us to turn it into something we wanted to consume, would you say that was showing our intellegence? Would you say that the was a glorifable moment in human behaviour that they could figure out with their huge giant brain that it made sense to take a little sensative creature and lock it in a cage and treat it like dirt. [QUOTE=Simski;34693727] I comprehend the reasons people rebel meat, I just don't agree with them. We don't need vehicles, television, computers, phones, clothes, hygiene products or pets to live, we have them because they make our lives easier and more enjoyable. Meat as a product isn't just for enjoyment, but also as an easy to use product that provides protein and energy. [/QUOTE] Make our lives easier in the expense of making other lives miserable. That is your argument. Don't you think the whole idea of life as an objective or beneficial to every sentient being, in reducing that amount of suffering and not create, expose it and by damn open the doors of exploitation to it. Vegetarians haven't this need for meat so it leaves an argument to whether we need this ethic at all. It's at the expense of living things so the price is being paid unecessarily. Vitro meat is a work in progress. We have not perfected this yet but when it does, don't sit there and wonder why there is no argument anymore. [QUOTE=Simski;34693727] This isn't the matrix. I and many other people feel absolutely no need to "step out of it", because frankly I'm absolutely fine with it.[/QUOTE] "We shouldn't apply our knowledge and judgement to this circumstance no, we should immitate a dna molocule, it will direct us in the appropriate direction and decision making, that has already left us susceptible to pain and misery" [QUOTE=Simski;34693727] I also have gone from being a Christian to being an atheist, so it's not like I don't think about what I believe in. I have thought about why I eat meat, and I am perfectly fine with it.[/QUOTE] Yeah well it doesn't prove anything. It's nothing new that traditions/beliefs of the past, that when the truth gets apparent enough, that philosophy becomes redundant and left to scrutiny. [QUOTE=Simski;34693727] We did not always do this. Cats and dogs have not always been pets, there have been times they were have been mere pests or wild animals we cared nothing about. Pets have been gradually accepted into our daily life because we consider them our property and because we do not damage other peoples property. We perhaps think of them as much more individual than we did in the past, but the only reason they have been accepted into society as individuals with their own rights is because we have respect for what other humans consider their property. Human society has always been the center of our common moral system. In the end, animals only have rights because it makes humankind happy, not because we consider them our equals. If animals had the same level of sentience as humans, we would consider them our equals. They would suffer far greater than they do now from being raised as food, and it would be a lot more obvious that they do mind us eating them.[/QUOTE] Are you sure that they are not more to do with some kind of emotional attachment to that creature than this idiology derived from 1700th century slavery right concepts which we thought was a pretty decent line to have drawn centuries ago. Did we learn anything from that? This is rambling speculation to whether animals don't have the same level of sentience as humans and just advantageous of something that the rest of nature has no choice but to participate in, that they can't advocate it. and until they speak out with the same level of intelligence to justify that '''''willing right to appeal''''', that gives you YOUR right to not live by enslavement, you will continue to promote these crappy practices.

[QUOTE=Irockz;34694557]Nincompoop. We're at the top of the food chain because we invent machines that mass slaughter. And we breed animals. Which isn't natural. Hell, I'd be better if we all hunted instead. You believe in natural selection? Then why don't you believe in acting the way we were intended to? Savage hunters? Instead of mass breeding and then murdering? The only thing that's good about eating meat is free range.[/QUOTE] "Natural" is in reality but an abstract concept. There is no true definition of what is natural, it is a concept created by humans to describe what we feel is not something normally occurring in nature. Something not created by man. If we remind ourselves that we are no less animal than anything else, only more intellectual, who are we to deem what mankind does is not natural? Mankind gained its success through its "natural" talent for using tools and our high intellect. We're highly evolved apes, using highly advanced tools. It's not unnatural, it's in our very nature. [QUOTE=Irockz;34694557][editline]14th February 2012[/editline] Horses are one of my favourite animals. Screw you.[/QUOTE] Horses are evil and I hate them. [editline]14th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Daemon;34696298]:words:[/QUOTE] I might respond to that a bit later, I've been away on a welding course for 3 hours and I need some serious resting.

[QUOTE=Simski;34697834] I might respond to that a bit later, I've been away on a welding course for 3 hours and I need some serious resting.[/QUOTE] its ok, debates can be long drafted

[QUOTE=Daemon;34697976]its ok, debates can be long drafted[/QUOTE] [img]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/ratings/heart.png[/img] Friendly x [b]1[/b] (list)

The way I see it, most wild animals are doomed to be eaten. We're hardly changing the rules here. The only reason I can see why eating meat is immoral is because the method is normally done by enslaving animals to some extent. But by doing that we also have to feed and look after them - which is a manner far more considerate than what nature would treat them. With that and the reality that animals seem to simply not care about the restricted freedom of their lives, I'm perfectly okay with eating meat.

[QUOTE=Simski;34684100] I also really hate horses, they are the only animal I would not mind being slaughtered in the most inhumane means possible.[/QUOTE] Horse meat is delicious. Trust me.

One horrible group of people: Vegetarians and vegans who force their children to their habits. Causing the children to grow up weak due to not having enough necessary nutrients.

there's nothing terribly wrong with them

I don't know why I should care Same thing with gay people and people of a different race, it really doesn't matter.

Seems pretty stupid to have your body conditioned to be an omnivore for thousands of years and then claim that meat is unhealthy.

[QUOTE=Numidium;34754684]Seems pretty stupid to have your body conditioned to be an omnivore for thousands of years and then claim that meat is unhealthy.[/QUOTE] that pretty much sums up what almost everyone here is probably thinking. thats stupid. being an omnivore in my opinion is pretty amazing, you dont have to just kill animals or eat vegetation, you can do both, which would probably be healthier than just eating vegetables or just eating meat. i think the reason more people are being vegetarians now and the reason we all see it as being so much healtheir is because the rest of us eat fast food. have any of you ever heard of a vegetarian fast food place? a nasty one? to me it doesnt matter if [U]the animal is being raised in a comfortable living area, with plenty of food and good treatment[/U] then a quick almost painless death just to be consumed, i dont see whats wrong with that. half of the shove-it-in-your-face vegetarians probably just saw a pita commercial or something. what do i think when i see a little piggy on a sign saying "a pork chop stops a heart'? i think those are gonna be some damn good pork chops. does that make me a horrible person? probably. do i care what the vegan next to me says when he sees me drooling over the thought of delicious pork chops? nope :v:

[QUOTE=Simski;34684100]Every animal exists to be eaten. Including humans. There is no law but natural selection as to who and who isn't supposed to be on top of the food chain. If we weren't supposed to be on top of the food chain, we wouldn't be so goddamn good at being on top of the food chain.[/QUOTE] That is really wrong, you're saying that the purpose of animals is to be eaten? Including human beings? And then you call barbaric any other superior species who eats a human being? [editline]20th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Simski;34694106]Most animals would probably just have been eaten by other animals or died of starvation because they're not adapted to survive in the environments they live in. Instead they are given a safe life of regulated feeding, wellbeing and eventual death in preferably a quick and humane manner.[/QUOTE] humane manner? have you actually seen slaughterhouses?

[QUOTE=Sunday_Roast;34683744]Vegetarians are okay, since most of them aren't pushy about their views. Vegans on the other hand have a tendency to be elitist assholes.[/QUOTE] No I'm not... :C I've been vegan since birth, and I don't run around shoving my ideals down peoples throats. I also don't have anything to do with PETA, quite frankly I don't understand them. My only problem with everyone else is when I'm forced to bring up my Veganism, some people wont shut up about it. "OMGNOWAI!!!11!!ICOULDNEVERLIVEWITHOUTBACON!" "You've never had a burger before? Well I should hide it in your grass sandwich sometime" I've been around for awhile, and believe me when I say I've heard [I]all of them[/I]. Please, just don't. I don't care what you want to eat, just leave me and my grass sandwiches in peace :C.

[QUOTE=matsta;34797495]That is really wrong, you're saying that the purpose of animals is to be eaten? Including human beings? And then you call barbaric any other superior species who eats a human being?[/QUOTE] I'm not saying that they exist solely to be eaten. In all honesty I don't think there is any [I]real[/I] reason to the existence of anything, humans and animals exist because they can not because they're needed. What I'm saying is, there is no [I]real[/I] laws in nature that says that one species should not eat another. This is the core part of many animals survival. We're part of the food chain just as much as every other animal in existence. [QUOTE=matsta;34797495][editline]20th February 2012[/editline] humane manner? have you actually seen slaughterhouses?[/QUOTE] Well obviously I'm not promoting the ones killing them in painful and slow ways. [editline]21st February 2012[/editline] I think the world exists without purpose and without morals. No animal or man exists for a purpose, they exist because they survive. The world does not need any creature to exist, the creatures of the world need each other to exist. We survive, and many of us survive by relying on other animals. We don't need to, we want to, for our survival. Morals are a man-made concept and my morals are defined by doing what benefits humanity, while if having to hurt others for that goal, do it respectfully and never in unneccesarily sadistic ways.

[QUOTE=Mr.Heal;34797850]No I'm not... :C [B]I've been vegan since birth[/B], and I don't run around shoving my ideals down peoples throats. I also don't have anything to do with PETA, quite frankly I don't understand them. My only problem with everyone else is when I'm forced to bring up my Veganism, some people wont shut up about it. "OMGNOWAI!!!11!!ICOULDNEVERLIVEWITHOUTBACON!" "You've never had a burger before? Well I should hide it in your grass sandwich sometime" I've been around for awhile, and believe me when I say I've heard [I]all of them[/I]. Please, just don't. I don't care what you want to eat, just leave me and my grass sandwiches in peace :C.[/QUOTE] That bit just makes me raise an eyebrow. Otherwise I'm all cool with what your opinion. And when I said that many Vegans have a tendency to act superior to animal-products consuming people. One example would be Onision (Greg) on youtube.

Well, I went vegetarian last thursday and I'm going to experiment and see how I feel, if I feel healthier, exercise more easily, shit like that. I did this for a week before but that's not enough time for me to find out. I'll give it a month trial, and if I feel better overall then I will just stick with it. I already know ALL about vegetarian nutrition so I will have no problem with that stuff. I'll see how stuff goes. [editline]21st February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Sunday_Roast;34803194] And when I said that many Vegans have a tendency to act superior to animal-products consuming people. One example would be Onision (Greg) on youtube.[/QUOTE] I do kinda agree with you there.. When I meet a vegan they seem to think they are all superior because they don't eat ANY animal products (which I think is just not as healthy as being ovo-lacto vegetarian or just a regular omnivore) and they judge everyone they see. Of course, not ALL of them are like that, but a huge portion of vegans are indeed like that. Just go take a look at a veg*n forum and watch how vegans shit all over everyone while the regular vegetarian members are just cool with everything and aren't judgmental and stuff.

I don't have any problem with them. It's none of my business what someone else decides to eat.

My girlfriend and mother are vegitarians and they are fine; My mother has to prepare meat when she cooks at work so she is kind of desensitised to it, my girlfriend doesnt like touching meat but she has no problem with other people eating it. Never really met anyone that actually looks down on other people because they aren't vegitarian, and I have never met a vegan.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;34804969]Eliminating meat from your diet isn't going to magically make you feel and exercise better, it's all about how you manage your food, if you're eating shit-quality meat or overall have a poor diet of course you'll feel unhealthy.[/QUOTE] Some say eliminating meat from your diet gives you some type of boost in energy after a while. I'm going to experiment and find out, no harm in that. I already manage my food very well when I have meat included, and I know all about vegetarian nutrition too so I'll be fine.

I was a vegetarian for 3 years and while I found the experience to be easy (first world society allows it), I compared my intake to the basic dietary needs of humans and saw that I was off track. Limiting some meat in your diet is fine, especially unhealthy red meats like pork and beef, but potentially limiting your protein intake while maintaining a much higher carb intake can have real negative consequences and probably isn't a good choice for most people.

a bunch of my friends are vegetarians. They're pretty cool and they're alright when we cook meat at barbies just they don't have any good for them and all but I'll stick with meat.

[QUOTE=Simski;34799517]I'm not saying that they exist solely to be eaten. In all honesty I don't think there is any [I]real[/I] reason to the existence of anything, humans and animals exist because they can not because they're needed. What I'm saying is, there is no [I]real[/I] laws in nature that says that one species should not eat another. This is the core part of many animals survival. We're part of the food chain just as much as every other animal in existence.[/QUOTE] If there are no "real" (or natural) laws that say one species should eat another, then there are no laws that say that a more advanced form of life can't eat us, so you shouldn't be against that either. Appealing to natural laws to determine what humans should do wont work at all, that's why we have moral laws. [QUOTE=Simski;34799517]I think the world exists without purpose and without morals. No animal or man exists for a purpose, they exist because they survive. The world does not need any creature to exist, the creatures of the world need each other to exist. We survive, and many of us survive by relying on other animals. We don't need to, we want to, for our survival. Morals are a man-made concept and my morals are defined by doing what benefits humanity, while if having to hurt others for that goal, do it respectfully and never in unneccesarily sadistic ways.[/QUOTE] Of course morals are man-made, and if you define morals like that doesn't mean that another person should do it in the same way you do. Actually, they probably won't define morals in the same way you do, but you have to accept and respect them as long as they do not interfere with your moral interpretation of the world.

I have friends who are vegetarians and I really do not care, it's perfectly fine they don't eat meat. The only times I get annoyed is when one of them has to say something about the fact I or a friend am eating meat and they go "Oh are you enjoying your -Insert Animal Here-?" I typically just reply with, "Yes now shut up and let me eat." But god help me whenever they mention meat is murder I would much rather state "No this is murder." and beat them to death, I get it you're against it but let me enjoy my food.

[QUOTE=dogfood123;34805486]Some say eliminating meat from your diet gives you some type of boost in energy after a while. I'm going to experiment and find out, no harm in that. I already manage my food very well when I have meat included, and I know all about vegetarian nutrition too so I'll be fine.[/QUOTE] The whole energy boost thing might be a placebo effect. What I can say from my experience was that having a 50/50 or more green on you lunch and excersicing regularly gives you an energy boost and helps you maintain your sleeping routine. I've kept on with that life style for a couple of weeks, but for the time I've been on winter vacation I haven't excercised much or eaten healthy but the effects from the time I did still carry on: I can't stay up longer than 1 AM and I wake up at 8 AM no matter what.

I eat meat because if I didn't I wouldn't be a good weight lifter. Unless I ate an excessive amount of protein powders Lean meats of course, I don't like red meats

[QUOTE=matsta;34822468]If there are no "real" (or natural) laws that say one species should eat another, then there are no laws that say that a more advanced form of life can't eat us, so you shouldn't be against that either. [/QUOTE] I would be against it, because they would be trying to eat me. I would not say that according to the laws of the universe they shouldn't be allowed to eat me, I would say that according to me and the rest of mankind they would not be allowed to eat me. No animal wants to become another animals food, what determines your rank on the food chain is how good you are at preventing other animals from eating you. [QUOTE=matsta;34822468]Appealing to natural laws to determine what humans should do wont work at all, that's why we have moral laws.[/QUOTE] And my moral laws are those that best benefits mankind to work as a society. I do not have the same view of animals as our equals, and until they gain the same form of sentience as humans I never will. [QUOTE=matsta;34822468]Of course morals are man-made, and if you define morals like that doesn't mean that another person should do it in the same way you do. Actually, they probably won't define morals in the same way you do, but you have to accept and respect them as long as they do not interfere with your moral interpretation of the world.[/QUOTE] If they tell me I should not eat meat because it's immoral to eat other animals, then clearly they are interfering with my moral interpretation of the world. I do not protest against a vegetarian or a vegan who enjoys their food and does not complain that I don't share their eating habits. You eat what you like, and I'll eat what I like. However the ones who try to impose their view of eating animals as immoral, should be aware that their view of immoral is not the same as mine.

I don't really give a shit what other people eat as long as they let me eat what I want I let them eat what they want, I love bacon too much.

Vegetarians who claim that they're doing it for the "animal rights" are stupid. Almost every single organism on the face of the planet must kill other living things to survive, and humans are not an exception to this. When they act like predators in other countries just [I]don't exist[/I], it makes my blood boil.

[QUOTE=matsta;34797495] humane manner? have you actually seen slaughterhouses?[/QUOTE] Slaughterhouses have higher standards today than the videos that PETA show from the worst factories of the previous century.

I don't see the issue with forcing people not to eat what you don't want them to eat, we already do that with cannibalism. I would never force someone not to eat meat because i think it is a logical conclusion you have to come to on your own. You don't eat other humans because you know your suffering A, is equal to their suffering B. So if A == B you should understand that it is wrong, now we can stretch this further to something of another species, let's say dogs and cats(AMERICA). Now a lot of us have had a relationship with a dog or a cat in the past, we discovered that their suffering is most likely equal to our own therefore it is wrong to cause them suffering or 'farm' them. Now a vegetarian simply stretches this further to all sentient creatures on the planet, because they most likely all have the same capacity to suffer as us, therefore it is wrong to cause them suffering which is equal to your own, because if you have ever suffered, you know it SUCKS ASS.