Vegetarians - Your thoughts on them - General

[QUOTE=flyguy88;34836042]I don't see the issue with forcing people not to eat what you don't want them to eat, we already do that with cannibalism. I would never force someone not to eat meat because i think it is a logical conclusion you have to come to on your own. You don't eat other humans because you know your suffering A, is equal to their suffering B. So if A == B you should understand that it is wrong, now we can stretch this further to something of another species, let's say dogs and cats(AMERICA). Now a lot of us have had a relationship with a dog or a cat in the past, we discovered that their suffering is most likely equal to our own therefore it is wrong to cause them suffering or 'farm' them. Now a vegetarian simply stretches this further to all sentient creatures on the planet, because they most likely all have the same capacity to suffer as us, therefore it is wrong to cause them suffering which is equal to your own, because if you have ever suffered, you know it SUCKS ASS.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't have people forced to change their diet. You could only achieve this by a next generation of people, to rid of an addiction by not encouraging it in the first place. The idea that you would want to bring another sentient being into this world to be exposed to this suffering 'thing', that is another problem.

[QUOTE=Daemon;34837173]I wouldn't have people forced to change their diet. You could only achieve this by a next generation of people, to rid of an addiction by not encouraging it in the first place. The idea that you would want to bring another sentient being into this world to be exposed to this suffering 'thing', that is another problem.[/QUOTE] You are completely right. And I am strongly against pro-natalism.

Even so, what would we do with all the animals if we stopped using them for food?

[QUOTE=Simski;34844686]Even so, what would we do with all the animals if we stopped using them for food?[/QUOTE] Kill them off of course :v:

[QUOTE=Simski;34844686]Even so, what would we do with all the animals if we stopped using them for food?[/QUOTE] Does it even matter? Why is it so vitally important that we use animals?

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34845126]Does it even matter? Why is it so vitally important that we use animals?[/QUOTE] Because they taste good. As long as vegetarians or vegans don't try to force other people to not eat meat, I am ok with them.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34845126]Does it even matter? Why is it so vitally important that we use animals?[/QUOTE] It matters, because is the alternatives to not raising animals for food anymore reasonable and humane than what we're doing now? What do you imagine we would do with the animals if we did not raise them to become food, and how would we manage it?

[QUOTE=Simski;34845705]It matters, because is the alternatives to not raising animals for food anymore reasonable and humane than what we're doing now? What do you imagine we would do with the animals if we did not raise them to become food, and how would we manage it?[/QUOTE] I'm not sure what you mean, but if you are talking about over population of species then sterilization is a option. Here is a paper on sterilization deer as a option and how one would go about it. [url]http://www.birdandhike.com/jlboone/papers/Deer/deer.htm[/url]

I'm okay with it, however it really grinds my gears whenever someone claims to be a vegetarian but still eats fish. How the fuck is a fish not an animal, and how the fuck is fishmeat not meat.

There are only 2 valid reasons I accept for vegan/vegetarianism Allergies and simply not liking the taste If people are worried about pain to animals then they should buy free range eggs, high welfare meats etc

I'm not going to tell you what to eat, that is neither something I want to do nor something I am allowed to do. However, I can (and do) not care for the idea of vegetarianism. You're missing out on a lot of good food by completely cutting out meat, and it's not as easy or uninvolved to remain healthy, and you're going to have problems when you're in a situation where you don't have many choices of what you can eat.

[QUOTE=flyguy88;34848338]I'm not sure what you mean, but if you are talking about over population of species then sterilization is a option. Here is a paper on sterilization deer as a option and how one would go about it. [url]http://www.birdandhike.com/jlboone/papers/Deer/deer.htm[/url][/QUOTE] I mean raising, breeding, feeding, keeping them safe from wildlife, a shelter against survival, and someone who will allow them to roam free on their land. Who would willingly be the provider of this, and how will they afford it if they can not profit from it?

[QUOTE=rivershark;34850680]I'm not going to tell you what to eat, that is neither something I want to do nor something I am allowed to do. [/QUOTE] That makes it sound as if you're in some sort of secretive cannibal society, If so what does human taste like?

vegetarians are a buncha pussies

[QUOTE=WhatTheKlent;34851971]That makes it sound as if you're in some sort of secretive cannibal society, If so what does human taste like?[/QUOTE] I think, that according to Jeffrey Dahmer, it tastes a bit like veal.

I'm a vegetarian because I don't like the taste. I eat fish because I enjoy the taste.

[QUOTE=Zally13;34859598]I'm a vegetarian because I don't like the taste. I eat fish because I enjoy the taste.[/QUOTE] ... then you aren't a vegetarian

'xactly. [editline]25th February 2012[/editline] I eat meat on occasion as well. I guess my point was I just don't like what is in my opinion the gritty taste of meat.

[QUOTE=Arsonist;34850209]There are only 2 valid reasons I accept for vegan/vegetarianism Allergies and simply not liking the taste If people are worried about pain to animals then they should buy free range eggs, high welfare meats etc[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Shadaez;34859606]... then you aren't a vegetarian[/QUOTE] I dont think critizing the extent of our vegetarianism is very productive and an extremist one. I don't think we have to be that strict because people simply can't expect of you or freestate society to be. The idea is to move the masses in a positive direction not to worry about whether one vegetarian is being strict enough or perfect enough. Critisims can be accepted sure, but whatever. Dont eat things that wiggle. If you can avoid it, dont do it. Isn't supporting the practices of vegetarianism enough to be a supporter of vegetarianism? [QUOTE=Simski;34851126]I mean raising, breeding, feeding, keeping them safe from wildlife, a shelter against survival, and someone who will allow them to roam free on their land. Who would willingly be the provider of this, and how will they afford it if they can not profit from it?[/QUOTE] We don't. We don't have the obligation to feed them, keep them safe or shelter any of them. Stop breeding them and consume the rest of the livestock. Until we can address our own society, perfect and figure out how to live life in a productive, controlled fashion, without them being integrated as part of our own collapsing welfare, perhaps then we could focus on another animals welfare but not before our own.

That being said I would place human life over animal life to a VERY extreme level. One human is worth more than a thousand animals, for example. [editline]25th February 2012[/editline] That and a lot of people are offended by people in other countries eating dog; which I really don't get at all. They both are animals and eating x animal but not y animal and being offended by eating y animal is a strange double standard. I know I don't eat most meat but fish... but I don't care if you eat most meat.

[QUOTE=Zally13;34865194]That being said I would place human life over animal life to a VERY extreme level. [/QUOTE] Well ok, but i don't know how you define worth in such a position. We could make up some fabricated values biased towards ourselves but we truly don't know if life has any worth at all. We could be losing in the process by just repeating something that has gone unchanged for 4 billion years.

[QUOTE=Daemon;34863346]I dont think critizing the extent of our vegetarianism is very productive and an extremist one. I don't think we have to be that strict because people simply can't expect of you or freestate society to be. The idea is to move the masses in a positive direction not to worry about whether one vegetarian is being strict enough or perfect enough. Critisims can be accepted sure, but whatever. Dont eat things that wiggle. If you can avoid it, dont do it. Isn't supporting the practices of vegetarianism enough to be a supporter of vegetarianism?[/QUOTE] If you say you're a vegetarian and proceed to eat fish, you're not a vegetarian is all. You're a Pescetarian. People may not know what that is, so it's fine to say you're vegetarian in some circumstances. I just think that creates misinformation, someone might actually think vegetarians eat fish. There's already a lot of misunderstandings about vegetarians and vegans and such. My uncle once said, "I couldn't go vegan, but I could go vegetarian. Vegetarians can still eat chicken, right?" [editline]25th February 2012[/editline] I didn't mean to sound extreme or anything, you just said one thing and then disproved it in the next sentence and it bothered me a bit.

[QUOTE=Impact1986;34845482]Because they taste good. As long as vegetarians or vegans don't try to force other people to not eat meat, I am ok with them.[/QUOTE] People need to understand how trivial a intrinsic sensation such as taste is, what a animal would have to go through in order for you to experience a simple, short lived sensation is obviously not worth it. Do not eat for taste, eat for relief of hunger, it is less of a risk.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;34866021]If you say you're a vegetarian and proceed to eat fish, you're not a vegetarian is all. You're a Pescetarian. People may not know what that is, so it's fine to say you're vegetarian in some circumstances. I just think that creates misinformation, someone might actually think vegetarians eat fish. There's already a lot of misunderstandings about vegetarians and vegans and such. My uncle once said, "I couldn't go vegan, but I could go vegetarian. Vegetarians can still eat chicken, right?" [editline]25th February 2012[/editline] I didn't mean to sound extreme or anything, you just said one thing and then disproved it in the next sentence and it bothered me a bit.[/QUOTE] You a right but upon all these varients, it gets stupid and it doesn't matter anyway. You can't define a vegetarian and others without regarding it's principles because you get bullshitters who keep saying 'You're swallowing microbes right now!', 'He has eaten meat before he can't be a true vegetarian/ pescetarian!' etc. Even so, if we stuck to fish and veg only, that can only be one more step in the right direction.

[QUOTE=Daemon;34863346]We don't. We don't have the obligation to feed them, keep them safe or shelter any of them. Stop breeding them and consume the rest of the livestock. Until we can address our own society, perfect and figure out how to live life in a productive, controlled fashion, without them being integrated as part of our own collapsing welfare, perhaps then we could focus on another animals welfare but not before our own.[/QUOTE] So really there is no reason why we should stop meat production in the current state of the world, correct? As it is now, they live in a system that benefits them in terms of the survival of their species, and that benefits us in terms of productivity. A system where they have use of us, and we have use of them. [editline]25th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=flyguy88;34866107]People need to understand how trivial a intrinsic sensation such as taste is, what a animal would have to go through in order for you to experience a simple, short lived sensation is obviously not worth it.[/QUOTE] People always say you should enjoy the little things in life.

I don't see no problem being a vegetarian But if you're going to try to shove it down my throat, I'll show you my massive stash of Slim Jims [IMG]http://idnewsalert.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/1305944121-33.jpg[/IMG]

I think horsemeat should be made more commonly available. Not that I particularly like horsemeat, just that I don't particularly like horses.

[QUOTE=Simski;34867590]So really there is no reason why we should stop meat production in the current state of the world, correct? As it is now, they live in a system that benefits them in terms of the survival of their species, and that benefits us in terms of productivity. A system where they have use of us, and we have use of them. [editline]25th February 2012[/editline] People always say you should enjoy the little things in life.[/QUOTE] You think the conditions of a factory farm are a benefit to them? Even if they do 'survive' this doesn't make their existence very positive, do you think a life encumbered with suffering and discomforts is a life worth living? This reminds me of the arguments slave owners would claim that their slaves are better off working for them because they supply them with food and water, a sustainable life, with no care for their current state of mind or condition, which is what really matters. Creating a new life is serious shit, to create something just for your own use with very little regard to its welfare(recent progress shows more regard to its welfare, though), It is a huge risk with some other creature. Just put yourself in a position of a farmed creature with some 'alien' creature with superior power and intelligence, what do you think? (I know this is a bad tricky comparison) "People always say you should enjoy the little things in life." Not if it comes at the harm of something else.

[QUOTE=flyguy88;34868507]You think the conditions of a factory farm are a benefit to them? Even if they do 'survive' this doesn't make their existence very positive, do you think a life encumbered with suffering and discomforts is a life worth living? This reminds me of the arguments slave owners would claim that their slaves are better off working for them because they supply them with food and water, a sustainable life, with no care for their current state of mind or condition, which is what really matters.[/QUOTE] I think their current position is better. We are actively working to reduce inhumane living standards for animals before slaughter, and despite using them for slaughter they are still given a controlled life before that. I don't think it's comparable to slaves, because humans have a different level of sentience. A human knows the situation it is in, and even if living with good standards it can still dislike living in captivity. Animals do not worry in the same way as humans. [QUOTE=flyguy88;34868507]Creating a new life is serious shit, to create something just for your own use with very little regard to its welfare(recent progress shows more regard to its welfare, though), It is a huge risk with some other creature.[/QUOTE] Well the alternatives are sparse. What the fuck do we do with the animals if we aren't supposed to eat them anymore? There is absolutely no reason at all to stop eating animals until we know exactly what we would do with all the animals if we did not raise them to be eaten. I will not even consider the idea of not using them for slaughter unless you can provide a reasonable solution as to what should be done with them if we do not eat them. [QUOTE=flyguy88;34868507]Just put yourself in a position of a farmed creature with some 'alien' creature with superior power and intelligence, what do you think? (I know this is a bad tricky comparison)[/QUOTE] We have human level intelligence and sentience, therefor being in the same situation of animals would be greatly interpreted by humans. If animals had human level intelligence and sentience, they would have human level rights. I guess I actually would not feel terrible if we actually were living in the Matrix though, and I'm sure some people would prefer it to reality. [QUOTE=flyguy88;34868507]"People always say you should enjoy the little things in life." Not if it comes at the harm of something else.[/QUOTE] I don't think it comes of the harm of something else. Because there is no reasonable alternative to the lives they live right now. What we have is making the best out of the situation, the end justify the means. The continued survival of their species and controlled lifespans in safety, in return for food.

I'm sort of indifferent with vegetarianism. I personally think that cutting meat [I]completely[/I] out of your diet can't be the best thing for you, but significantly cutting back meat consumption should definitely be done. As for the reasons why people are vegetarians? I don't really care why someone does it. I can respect the reasoning behind not wanting to for health reasons, and somewhat for economic reasons (like, the amount of grain that it takes to feed all the cattle could feed everyone for loadsa time, transportation/pollution, etc), but I feel like the few people that do it like that will never make a difference. The reason I find silly: "We shouldn't eat the cute little *insert animal here*". That may be someone's reason, but I just think it's really a shit reason to be a vegetarian. Take, for instance, the chicken. Last I heard, they only exist to become food in one form or another. There are no wild chickens, their sole purpose now is for consumption/making more chikens to consume/eggs/etc. My two cents that no one actually cares about.