Regardless of morals or anything, the amount of crap corporations in the food industry feed us is fucking atrocious. I'm not a vegetarian (because, regardless of the fact it's capitalist poison, I love meat) but I can easily see where people come from.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34902638]I think you don't want to defend vegetarianism anymore. It's a stupid concept and there's plenty of scientific proof that says, "Hey, you need a balanced diet."
[editline]27th February 2012[/editline]
Did I mention the whole theory about "saving an animal's life" goes against the... well, everything that is natural? It really does. If we stopped to think about the lives of animals all the time, we'd go nowhere. That's just the reality.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by natural, I mean are you saying it is a default mechanism or function of a human therefore justified?
Because it is in the DNA it is justified?
I really feel like that is a failure argument, could you not argue a crap load of shit is natural, war, rape, social ostracization etc etc etc.
[QUOTE=Atlascore;34903949]War and all that other shit hurts human beings, meat consumption only hurts animals that's lives even without human interference consists of nothing but standing around eating grass and moving together as a herd.
I think you're forgetting something here, just because those animals aren't in a farm doesn't mean they're going to die of old age, there's these things called predators that violently attack and sometimes even eat alive animals like cows and chickens.
Are you telling me that a cow being ripped apart by a pack of wolves is a more fitting type of death instead of being killed instantly without pain most of the time by a butcher?[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying the factory farm should release them, just use up the livestock you have now, then stop breeding them.
Don't bring sentience into existence for your own, selfish use.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;34899844]No.
Vitamin B12 is a nutrient that is only found in animal products.
Humans require this vitamin to function properly - while it is available in pill form, we have to extract it from somewhere. Therefore, animals get hurt either way so this discussion is irrelevant.
You can survive without the vitamin, but for how long is what's completely up for debate. Just like "how long" you can survive without a proper immune system.[/QUOTE]
I want to go back a few a posts on this discussion about Vitamin B12. I think where the vitamin itself is only found in animal products it's not something affixed to the animal itself. We know its a bacterial micro organism within the liver and digestive system and there is evidence of it out bound of the animal through fecal matter and the likes. I think the is a considerable basis for reason to discuss and its not irrelevant not to discuss. You also have the dilemma of what broad spectrum of where this vitamin B12 exists to an extent such as crustaceans and other shellfish who are on the verge of being sentient, i don't know if they are or not. It's kind of a grey area. We're getting to very small brains here and we are getting to a point where im not quite sure if there is something to worry about. Whether there are synthetic alternatives either.
[QUOTE=Atlascore;34904170]So basically what you're saying is we should force multiple species to near-extinction levels of population?[/QUOTE]
We forced them into existence and exploited them, we just wouldn't be breeding them anymore.
[QUOTE=Atlascore;34904563]Forced them into existence? No, we sheltered them from predators thousands of years ago and have had them ever since, without us they'd just be hunted by wolves and other animals.
Again, animals kill each other for food all the time, why are we banned from it, because it's natural? So are a lot of other things including sex, social interactions, and working together, should we stop doing all of those too?[/QUOTE]
You are not banned from it obviously. What are you talking about, i'm obviously not avoiding anything natural i just stated a few posts ago that just because something is in your DNA, or 'natural' doesn't mean shit, it isn't a justification.
You make it sound so compassionate, yeah we are breeding pigs, cows and chickens in these farms just for their welfare, to protect them? We are obviously using them just for selfish use and their conditions are usually shit, recently it has been progressing but in my opinion, it is still shit. I think non-existence is preferable to being farmed.
[QUOTE=Atlascore;34904767]Cows, chickens, and pigs offer nothing to this world besides their meat, they eat massive amounts of plants leaving areas barren, they shit everywhere, and spread disease, they have the mental capacity of a bug, especially chickens, why do they deserve special treatment?
I mean we aren't talking about animals like dogs, cats, or even horses that are heavily social and can bond with humans, we're talking about farm animals that's daily routine even in the wild consists of eat shit piss and sleep.[/QUOTE]
I'll try to find some evidence but I'm pretty sure pigs are just as intelligent and social as a dog would be, not that i think it is relevant. Cows bellow when its kin is dragged away into another pin or for slaughter, is this response a indication for a strong emotional response?
And what do humans do, we consume everything and then shit out a windows 98, so what.
We are playing the same game as them, we just use our intelligence instead.
If intelligence is going to be the standard for moral consideration, why should we give a shit about people with inferior intelligence, aka retards.
I don't see how intelligence is relevant, whether they are eating and rolling in the mud vs reading shakespear, we are playing the same game.
The real standard should be the capacity to feel, pigs, cows and chickens have the capacity to suffer.
If you don't believe me go watch one of those, supposedly isolated abuse cases, you can look at that cow or pig and watch it moan or squeal and decide for yourself if they are empty caskets, who feel nothing. OR you could just look at their neurology and see how obvious it is, they've got nociceptors too!
[QUOTE=Atlascore;34904767]
I mean we aren't talking about animals like dogs, cats, or even horses that are heavily social and can bond with humans, we're talking about farm animals that's daily routine even in the wild consists of eat shit piss and sleep.[/QUOTE]
I could bond with a chicken. If the chicken's my friend, if i hung out with a chicken for a few months and the chicken knows me and i know him and he eats out of my little hand and he goes buck buck buck has a conversation with me and that. Then its even more sure i don't want to kill it because now im emotionally attached to the animal and now it becomes a part of this same dilemma that you have with other animals and humans. But you people (with no disrespect), want to sit there and pretend that thats not part of the equation because all you like to do is stand way far back. You never get to know your victim first you dont spend a day with your victim and see how their living and what their up to.
[editline]28th February 2012[/editline]
I know emotions don't exactly get in the way of killing an animal. Its not very hard and people prove that everyday. It's really easy to pull a trigger on a gun right? Its really easy. I suppose it's kinda harder to go get up close with the animal and stick a knife in its neck but whatever. It's really easy to make a calculation in ones head that you are a menace to the sentient life on planet earth because your fostering and facilitating and financing quite directly the persocution of animals for your convienience. Theres nothing else meritorious about human beings than the fact on other sentient creatures. What else is there to measure your worth based on if there is no other measure.
[editline]28th February 2012[/editline]
I dont know if you're a great humanitarian. I dont know what kind of person you are, I dont know how many people you've harmed in your life. So if all i know about you is that you go around killing animals and you accept theres a risk for them to be tortured and be mistreated, that you breed them for the purpose of your consumption and that you make them economocly cheap and easy for you to get your convenient flesh, if thats all i know and i dont have anything else to put that against such as say look, but he's saved thousands of people from harm through some other mechanism or hes done something else to prevent animals from suffering. ok fine. but i dont have that evidence. If all i have is evidence of you playing the 'strangle the chicken game' for your stupid chicken burger, then well sorry, you suck.
[QUOTE=Daemon;34900394]I'm not in the frame of mind to treat anyone badly are you? I don't give someone a miserable experience when there is a relevence not to do it.[/QUOTE]
I am not. All I'm really trying to say is that there is no real right or wrong, it's something we have made up. How you should live your life and treat others is a mere opinion.
My way of living and treating others is built on a system that brings the most enjoyment to myself and mankind as a whole, and it mostly thinks of animals as our blissfully ignorant tools who don't mind their part in our symbiotic relationship. According to my system I should treat others well because otherwise I have no reason to expect to be treated well in return, as for animals I don't consider using them for slaughter to be treating them badly as long as they are killed quickly with as little suffering as possible and they live a good life up to that point. They are ignorant enough to be blissfully happy in the situation they're in, and as long as they don't have human comprehension to suffer in the situation they're in, they will remain happy.
My system is not the right one, and neither is yours. There is no right system, nothing is set in stone.
My system is the one I think works the best for everyone. It is an opinion that my morals are right, it is an opinion that my morals are wrong.
[QUOTE=Simski;34905726]I am not. All I'm really trying to say is that there is no real right or wrong, it's something we have made up. How you should live your life and treat others is a mere opinion.
My way of living and treating others is built on a system that brings the most enjoyment to myself and mankind as a whole, and it mostly thinks of animals as our blissfully ignorant tools who don't mind their part in our symbiotic relationship. My system is the one I think works the best for everyone. My system is not the right one, and neither is yours. There is no right system, nothing is set in stone.[/QUOTE]
Yeah i understand this whole right or wrong thing, like a few stated and yourself universal laws are void of these concepts. We use right or wrong to determine the best of a situation pushed by desire. So if your causing me to hurt and your nice and comfortable, infact your comfort is in the expense of you taking my comfort and i am really wanting to die here, it's not in my best situation because i have no desire to be without comfort. I am not in the position to gain my desire so i want to do the best for my situation and that is to die. On the other hand, you are enjoying life with it's comforts and the best situation for you wouldn't be to die so you in all your desperado in keeping yourself comfortable, try your best to prevent me in any way you can from my desire for dying.
But there is a truth in there that you can relate to by your own experiences and you want to ignore it. You know deep down the truth isn't pleasant. You don't want to have anything to do with it unless your comfortable. Your intelligence capable of being self-aware that can reconcile oneself and other individuals in an environment, that you are telling me you don't have the consciousness to work out what my best intentions are. That intelligence can't come to a right or wrong decision based on the best situation that you wouldn't want to be in on truths that exist. 'I think, therefore I am' ...'all the things which we very clearly and distinctly conceive are true' and you see the truth, but you don't want to care... We should just accept it for what it is. There is no incentive to curb it and i don't believe personally in existing in that context.
I don't really know, i really don't know... Enjoyment or happiness is probably like any other reward mechanic with competitive behavours in mind just for this 'feel good'. I don't know if there is something in there thats worth congratulating about or encouraging if it is in the expense of certain things we do. We have got to understand the right system and like if you remember i said, there is no system and balance within our society that is perfect, especially within a freewill society, without the need to have the responsibility of another living thing to perfect.
Anyways maybe i'm tripping out its quite early now. Who knows what i said. I see Marbalo had entered this thread since i've sat here typing this. If he has even replied that is, hopefully its retains a charm that the others hadn't. I don't know if i'm done with this thread now anyway...
It is my opinion that by both virtues of "we need them to live" and that "We're smart enough to know how." that if animal must suffer that humans may live, so be it.
In fact, even with modern day high density farming and other such food production methods, there are still people in abject squalor starving to death because there is not enough food to go round.
If we must mistreat animals to save humans, then so be it.
Vegetarians are fine, just so long as they keep it to being a "personal choice" and not something the try to spread to public in their immediate vicinity. People who try to push their vegetarianism on others, that's just plain wrong.
Heck my uncle is a vegetarian and whenever we go round his house he will still cook meat for everyone else, he just won't eat it. (Why can;'t more veggies be like him?)
It's a bit like The Matrix really. Animals live blissfully unaware that they're not free, and they're being raised for food. As long as they are raised happy, lacks the human comprehension skill to realize that they're not free and starts to desire to be free, they are not suffering. Either way, they can't be let free because after generations of being under our care has left them dependent on us. Unless they become adapted to survive on their own we can't, unless they learn to comprehend the situation they're in we don't need to.
So back to the whole crazy "how would you like if super intelligent aliens decided that we were intellectually inferior and they were going to farm and eat us" argument... If it worked the same way the Matrix where every human is never made aware that they're being farmed and they live in a happy fantasy world... I actually think a lot of people would not mind, especially if they never knew anything about it, and some who'd realize might even prefer to stay in this world if they knew that they were not adapted to survive in the real world.
[QUOTE=thisguy123;34906729]It is my opinion that by both virtues of "we need them to live" and that "We're smart enough to know how." that if animal must suffer that humans may live, so be it.
In fact, even with modern day high density farming and other such food production methods, there are still people in abject squalor starving to death because there is not enough food to go round.
If we must mistreat animals to save humans, then so be it.
Vegetarians are fine, just so long as they keep it to being a "personal choice" and not something the try to spread to public in their immediate vicinity. People who try to push their vegetarianism on others, that's just plain wrong.
Heck my uncle is a vegetarian and whenever we go round his house he will still cook meat for everyone else, he just won't eat it. (Why can;'t more veggies be like him?)[/QUOTE]
Voicing your opinion is wrong? It may not be polite, especially at the dinner table but I do not see it as being wrong.
Livestock takes X(input) amount of food to keep them alive and they produce Y(output) amount of food. [URL="http://www.thepigsite.com/stockstds/18/daily-feed-intake"]http://www.thepigsite.com/stockstds/18/daily-feed-intake[/URL]
A pig consumes about 4% of its body weight a day.
By 20 weeks/140 days a pig is consuming 3800 (g)/8.37756 (pounds/lbs)
By 22 weeks/154 days a pig is consuming 4000(g)/8.8 (pounds/lbs) a day.
A 22 week old pig, according to that website is 242 (pounds) or 110 (kg).
That is on average 8.37756(lbs) of food per day being fed to that pig for 14 days, 177.2(pounds/lbs) consumed by the pig in just 14 days.
That is about 40% of its weight in just 14 days.
Tell me if I failed at doing that math but
Y is 242 pounds of meat(Probably less), after 22 weeks of growth.
So the X for just two weeks(14 days) is 172 pounds of food, and the pig lives 22 weeks.
I'll try to do the whole equation but I only had 10 minutes, if i did this right this should show the inefficiency of factory farming, for pigs at least.
And i'm not sure what food was fed to these pigs.
I'm a vegi, and I think they're fine. Vegans are normally dicks though.
As long as you don't force your beliefs on anybody, your fine. See, I notice a lot of people saying "Don't force vegi beliefs on me" But the amount of times people have told me that I'm stupid for not eating meat... Can not count it on all the hands on Facepunch.
[editline]28th February 2012[/editline]
I'm a vegi, and I think they're fine. Vegans are normally dicks though.
As long as you don't force your beliefs on anybody, your fine. See, I notice a lot of people saying "Don't force vegi beliefs on me" But the amount of times people have told me that I'm stupid for not eating meat... Can not count it on all the hands on Facepunch.
[QUOTE=Loli;34909297]I'm a vegi, and I think they're fine. Vegans are normally dicks though.
As long as you don't force your beliefs on anybody, your fine. See, I notice a lot of people saying "Don't force vegi beliefs on me" But the amount of times people have told me that I'm stupid for not eating meat... Can not count it on all the hands on Facepunch.[/QUOTE]
I think that's because the reason most people go vegan/vegetarian is to save animals... and really, cutting meat out of your diet only does so little. There are so many things that use animal byproducts that you might as well be a Luddite.
If you just don't like meat, because of its texture and flavor? That's fine. But the whole "kumbaya save the animals" spiel is a sort of double-standard thing that really doesn't make any sense if you look at it objectively.
[QUOTE=Loli;34909297]I'm a vegi, and I think they're fine. Vegans are normally dicks though.
As long as you don't force your beliefs on anybody, your fine. See, I notice a lot of people saying "Don't force vegi beliefs on me" But the amount of times people have told me that I'm stupid for not eating meat... Can not count it on all the hands on Facepunch.
[editline]28th February 2012[/editline]
I'm a vegi, and I think they're fine. Vegans are normally dicks though.
As long as you don't force your beliefs on anybody, your fine. See, I notice a lot of people saying "Don't force vegi beliefs on me" But the amount of times people have told me that I'm stupid for not eating meat... Can not count it on all the hands on Facepunch.[/QUOTE]
I never tell people it's stupid to be a vegetarian (except for this one girl that is just really fucking retarded. She has an iron deficit, has to take pills and still can't do some things. She couldn't ride her horse for years because she was just too weak to be able to even with the pills.), unless their reason for being one is "because of the animals".
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34909620]I think that's because the reason most people go vegan/vegetarian is to save animals... and really, cutting meat out of your diet only does so little. There are so many things that use animal byproducts that you might as well be a Luddite.
If you just don't like meat, because of its texture and flavor? That's fine. But the whole "kumbaya save the animals" spiel is a sort of double-standard thing that really doesn't make any sense if you look at it objectively.[/QUOTE]
What if one just feels wrong about eating animals themselves? Not necessarily a "I [b]must[/b] save the animals" mentallity but more like a "I don't feel right about eating animals myself" mentality.
[editline]28th February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisguy123;34906729]
Heck my uncle is a vegetarian and whenever we go round his house he will still cook meat for everyone else, he just won't eat it. (Why can;'t more veggies be like him?)[/QUOTE]
I think a lot of vegetarians are actually like that. I wish I had facts to back it up, but I haven't met any of the weird psycho vegetarians that people always talk about.
You can't release domestic animals out into the wild, they were bred for humans and releasing them to the wild to pollute the gene pool is even worse than eating them because it kills the natural species.
[editline]28th February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Simski;34908930]It's a bit like The Matrix really. Animals live blissfully unaware that they're not free, and they're being raised for food. As long as they are raised happy, lacks the human comprehension skill to realize that they're not free and starts to desire to be free, they are not suffering. Either way, they can't be let free because after generations of being under our care has left them dependent on us. Unless they become adapted to survive on their own we can't, unless they learn to comprehend the situation they're in we don't need to.
So back to the whole crazy "how would you like if super intelligent aliens decided that we were intellectually inferior and they were going to farm and eat us" argument... If it worked the same way the Matrix where every human is never made aware that they're being farmed and they live in a happy fantasy world... I actually think a lot of people would not mind, especially if they never knew anything about it, and some who'd realize might even prefer to stay in this world if they knew that they were not adapted to survive in the real world.[/QUOTE]
North Korea is an example of that. Millions of people actually cried for Kim Jong il even though he was "imprisoning" them.
Besides an animal that is not sentient only exists to reproduce and produce more offspring to reproduce again. Think about it, what does a wild bird have to live for, other than to grow up have babies and die?
[QUOTE=Protocol7;34909620]I think that's because the reason most people go vegan/vegetarian is to save animals... and really, cutting meat out of your diet only does so little. There are so many things that use animal byproducts that you might as well be a Luddite.
If you just don't like meat, because of its texture and flavor? That's fine. But the whole "kumbaya save the animals" spiel is a sort of double-standard thing that really doesn't make any sense if you look at it objectively.[/QUOTE]
There are a few people in here that have a universal view on the subject. I'm not biased towards any species, especially towards ignoring our own current affairs as human biengs. It has considerable amount to do with it. I'm not a fan of pro-birh i don't think there is anything going for it. You can't save something that isn't going to survive. This whole dependency on animals thing.
Yeah vitimin B12...
Let's refresh. There is a question on how dependent you actually need to be. We know anemia is a defficiency of vitamin B12 but we can break it down and look at the facts.
- There is a recommended allowance like all vitamins and such. (I'm using office of dietry supplements as a source of information for the following numbers).
- You need on average of 3 micrograms (3/1000 to a milligram!) a day to remain suffieciently healthy, void of any evidence towards a defficiency. Let's compare it to some other 'essential vitamins and minerals' such as Iron which also causes anemia which you need 15 mg a day (15,000 mirograms!). So it really does put it into perspective on how much of a requirement it is in your diet. We must not forget that body absorbption has a capacity to how much it withdraws with an oral suppliment. It is much more for vitamin B12 but i think it's safe to mention so it's about around 3mcg for 150mcg.
- Unlike other vitamins and minerals, this is a very special one. Vitamin B12 is considered one of the rarer minerals and no thanks to strict hygiene standards and such, we ensure bacteria is free from food so it keeps getting rarer but thats not the point. It's a rare mineral and always has been to humans. The absorbption of this vitamin and longetivity of storage from our body that makes vitamin B12 so unique is the reason why anemia takes up to 1 to 5 years to develop a deficiently. The SOLE reason our body stores this for so long is because our ancestors never consumed or came across that much meat. That is why you need so little.
Just go to your supermarket and look on the back of cereals such companies as Kellogs who use it in all their produce. Vitamin B12 or people who consumed fortified cereal more than four times of a seven day week were much less likely to have a vitamin B12 deficiency. You even available have folid acids that temperary counter much of anemia effects. Cereals are in the top 3 healthiest suppliers for obtaining vitamin B12 next to liver, crustaceans (are they sentient?) and with chicken breast the lowest in the table.
Theres also arguments about too much meat in the diet can block the body’s absorption of B12 and there are other accounts of excessive amounts alcohol consumption can do the same thing. So you know... they are things you do change if you knew about it. You don't do unecessary things and i find it unecessary to consume stupid amounts of meat. It is not in my favour to have a vegan society and you can't expect it to be. I've said before there is no point in critizing the extent of someones vegetarianism. Are you going to get critical on someones vegetarianism if they've ever consumed meat? The idea is to move the masses in a positive direction.
If meat was a part of our diet, it was a tiny part of our diet. A billion people live without it. Do you eat raw meat? Do you see a dead animal carcus and go 'Boy, i am sure hungry right now' and dig in? No you don't infact it will do the oppersite and it might make you throw up. We undeniably conditioned ourselves to eat it by cooking it! It's probably through soil and fecal matter off plants that we maintained it before hand.
No good unrevealing health associations of not eating meat, using friends and relatives you know who have developed problems when it is simply a case of a bad diet just like any diet.
And you know this dependency thing. We don't like being struck down by dependency. It has never been in our interest to be. We don't want to be tied down with money, other problems, it is not our desire to have a living dependency on something else. Every human being recognizes this. We know its a bad thing. That is nature. Meat is just real foul in a comparison to what renuable energy sources we have.
I think there is some serious problems being discussed here. One of them being because people can't avoid it, is the fact they should condone it.
As far as i know you can get all the nutrients needed without meat and most vegetarians that I know simply doesn't eat meat because they think the animals are treated poorly and not because they feel that they are killing something.
-
Omnivores will never agree that what we're doing is wrong, vegetarians/vegans will never accept that what we're doing is right.
So just eat what you feel is right, fighting about it only nets you enemies.
Horses are evil, bacon is delicious. Horse bacon.
Over all we eat too much meat. Meat is a very inefficient way of getting the nutrients we need in our agricultural world with a rapidly expanding population. I should really cut down on my meat consumption but it is so delicious. I assume we like it so much because it was a rare treat in our evolutionary history, that the small amount we need (could do with) was hard to come by.
[QUOTE=Simski;34915877]Omnivores will never agree that what we're doing is wrong, vegetarians/vegans will never accept that what we're doing is right.
So just eat what you feel is right, fighting about it only nets you enemies.
Horses are evil, bacon is delicious. Horse bacon.[/QUOTE]
I am disappoint. lol
Well come on people. Is there nothing in this thread that presents itself to some degree of reason. We can throw facts around all day. To sum up this thread it just doesn't have a foundation or motive towards something. What are you going to put on your tshirt? What do you advocate that has any rational meaning to any sentient being. Is there any meaning NOT to do something?
Fine you can say 'it's just a matter of feeling'
I mean, people say that because they hate the way we discuss and argue some other point of view. So they're all for this freedom of discussion and the feedom of expression as long as the expression agrees with them but if our expression 'attacks' you we are in the wrong to do so. Is it kind of saying, 'i have little to argue against vegetarians, or theres nothing wrong to be a vegetarian but i feel like a victim of my opinion'. I accept their expression so why should THEY have something wrong with MY expression?
i dont think there's any shortage of uninformed people voicing their opinions. Theres lots of people talking rubbish and unqualified nonsense so let's have more of that. Let us advocate it even more (sarcastic). Sure everybodies for freedom of speech but there ought to be some scrutiny somewhere.
[QUOTE=Simski;34915877]Omnivores will never agree that what we're doing is wrong, vegetarians/vegans will never accept that what we're doing is right.
So just eat what you feel is right, fighting about it only nets you enemies.
Horses are evil, bacon is delicious. Horse bacon.[/QUOTE]
Stop saying horses are evil it isn't even relevant.
I don't mind vegetarianism, although I think it's pretty pointless. We as a species are adapted to eat meat, plain and simple.
What I can't stand are the people who think they're superior because they're vegetarians. The people who spew that "We should all be vegetarian because we're a civilized species" bullshit.
i saw lots of meat eating being compared to rape in the first few pages and i'm just going to saw that that is a fucking terrible thing and robbobin is a disgusting person for making those claims
[QUOTE=Super_Noodle;34990928]I don't mind vegetarianism, although I think it's pretty pointless. We as a species are adapted to eat meat, plain and simple.
[no argument here...][/QUOTE]
Please put an argument with a basis into your post. We adapt ourselves with tools is what your saying. We use fire as a means of 'cooking' to make something that we can't naturally digest well, a little digestible. Also to make it taste nicer and to rid of any bacteria that can cause and may still be able to harm. In the past, there is some reason for a demand to be had back then, some significance to what there was to eat. Little by what it means today, defending a fabricated dependency that used to be. Since we adapt ourselves with tools, there is no basis to argue that we can't unadapt ourselves or adapt ourselves into another environment, another position which we are apparently so good at.
[QUOTE=Daemon;34994769]Please put an argument with a basis into your post. We can adapt ourselves with tools is what your saying, you know with fire to make something that we can't naturally digest well and make it a little digestible and to make it taste nicer and to rid of any bacteria that can cause potential harm. All these things to adapt ourselves, what can i say it must have been desperate times back then. No real explanation on your part though, seems like needing to fulfill a past time you want to aquire. Since we adapt ourselves with tools there is no basis to argue that we can't unadapt ourselves beforehand or adapt ourselves into an environment, another position that come so naturally easy to us.[/QUOTE]
Slightly off argument, but I swear your posts get more and more unintelligible as you run out of points and the discussion goes on. It's actually getting quite hard to discern you point in your latest posts.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;34994879]Slightly off argument, but I swear your posts get more and more unintelligible as you run out of points and the discussion goes on. It's actually getting quite hard to discern you point in your latest posts.[/QUOTE]
Not off argument. That was the only reasoning in his post i could work off of. Thank you for also not contributing to the thread. Seems like you've run out of points all together.
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