Vegetarians - Your thoughts on them - General

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34587224]So your minor convenience is has more moral value than the life of a being with beliefs and desires, an emotional life, memory, and the ability to initiate action in pursuit of goals?[/QUOTE] That's nature. If we didn't breed cows to eat and milk they would probably just die off anyway.

[QUOTE=HulaDancer;34587246]VEGETARIANS ARE PUSSIES.[/QUOTE] Are there any reasons for you calling vegetarians pussies? or did you just decide that when you heard there were people who didn't eat meat, you just said to yourself "hey, those guys are fuckin pussies!" [QUOTE=squids_eye;34587247]That's nature. If we didn't breed cows to eat and milk they would probably just die off anyway.[/QUOTE] A youtube video maker by the name "TheAmazingAtheist" did make this point on one of his videos on vegetarians and I thought it was a good one. It is true that if humans didn't mass breed chickens, pigs, lambs, cows, etc. they would be very low in number. The only reason that they are this high in number right now is because humans are making them reproduce A LOT.

[QUOTE=squids_eye;34587247]That's nature. If we didn't breed cows to eat and milk they would probably just die off anyway.[/QUOTE] Rape's natural. Natural =/= morally permissible.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34587264]Rape's natural. Natural =/= morally permissible.[/QUOTE] Well we don't really rape them before we eat them, unless we're talking about that infamous restaurant in china.

[QUOTE]That's nature. If we didn't breed cows to eat and milk they would probably just die off anyway. [/QUOTE] Like the Deer did! living out in the wild and being one with the ecosystem is just a plan for a swift and sound destruction! [QUOTE]A youtube video maker by the name "TheAmazingAtheist" did make this point on one of his videos on vegetarians and I thought it was a good one. It is true that if humans didn't mass breed chickens, pigs, lambs, cows, etc. they would be very low in number. The only reason that they are this high in number right now is because humans are making them reproduce A LOT. [/QUOTE] TheAmazingAtheist is not even credited amongst atheists

[QUOTE=Simski;34587292]Well we don't really rape them before we eat them,[/QUOTE] That wasn't the point of my counterexample. I was illustrating that appealing to nature is not sufficient to demonstrate an act is morally permissible.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34587302]That wasn't the point of my counterexample. I was illustrating that appealing to nature is not sufficient to demonstrate an act is morally permissible.[/QUOTE] Moral is in the eyes of the beholder.

[QUOTE=Simski;34587314]Moral is in the eyes of the beholder.[/QUOTE] oh so because a rapist doesn't see anything wrong with rape, it's morally permissible for him? [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] anyone have any objections to this?

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[QUOTE=Crom;34587301]TheAmazingAtheist is not even credited amongst atheists[/QUOTE] Yeah but he does make some funny and interesting videos. I don't watch his channel because he is atheist or whatever, I just watch for the content.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34587325]oh so because a rapist doesn't see anything wrong with rape, it's morally permissible for him? [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] anyone have any objections to this?[/QUOTE] Most of us are perfectly fine with eating meat since we see eating meat as a natural means of survival. Humans are omnivores, not herbivores or carnivores, we're adapted to eat both meat and vegetables. We don't think it's morally wrong to kill other animals and eating them, because plenty of other animals do the exact same thing, and we've been doing this throughout our entire history. Besides, since they're not as intellectually advanced beings they aren't remotely as emotionally affected by it as humans.

I'm amazed that people even cite the depopulation of cows as an argument for the legitimacy of eating cows. Should we lock some humans away in a cage in the harshest conditions perceivable to ensure the survival of the human race? Or should we protect these human's ends and potentially let them die of natural causes.

There's vital nutrients and things in meat that your body needs to be healthy as well as have proper brain function, there's a reason we are omnivores. I had a friend whom had two great aunts or something along those lines, very very old family members anyway, same side of the family and everything, one was a vegetarian, the other just ate healthy. The vegetarian ended up dying before the other one and was subject to many many health problems while the other whom simply ate healthy is still alive today. Now you may think that's crazy, but diet has a whole world of play in what happens to us, your body has to have things just right to keep your immune system working well and all that. As well as studies show that your brain does not function at higher levels without the levels of protein that meat provides in less amounts of food. Being a vegetarian can lead you a healthy life but you'll live a much healthier one with some meat in there.

I have a lot of vegetarian friends. They're fine except that the only place they ever want to eat is Taco Bell.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34587367]I'm amazed that people even cite the depopulation of cows as an argument for the legitimacy of eating cows. Should we lock some humans away in a cage in the harshest conditions perceivable to ensure the survival of the human race? Or should we protect these human's ends and potentially let them die of natural causes.[/QUOTE] Not to mention that the cow is a cross-breed that man created for the purpose of food. If we didn't care for cow's they'd die out anyway. EDIT: ninja'd!

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34587367]I'm amazed that people even cite the depopulation of cows as an argument for the legitimacy of eating cows. Should we lock some humans away in a cage in the harshest conditions perceivable to ensure the survival of the human race? Or should we protect these human's ends and potentially let them die of natural causes.[/QUOTE] Humans are far more intellectually advanced and would therefor be suffering a lot more than a cow or a pig raised to become food. Besides, they would be a lot harder to surveillance.

[QUOTE=The one that is;34587382]Not to mention that the cow is a cross-breed that man created for the purpose of food. If we didn't care for cow's they'd die out anyway. EDIT: ninja'd![/QUOTE] I want somebody to breed cows to be really small so I can keep one as a house pet.

[QUOTE=Crom;34587301]Like the Deer did! living out in the wild and being one with the ecosystem is just a plan for a swift and sound destruction! TheAmazingAtheist is not even credited amongst atheists[/QUOTE] Except deer have evolved differently, they are fast and have sharp senses, cows are big and pretty dumb. If we stopped now and let them all free, they wouldn't last a very long time.

[QUOTE=The one that is;34587369]There's vital nutrients and things in meat that your body needs to be healthy as well as have proper brain function, there's a reason we are omnivores. I had a friend whom had two great aunts or something along those lines, very very old family members anyway, same side of the family and everything, one was a vegetarian, the other just ate healthy. The vegetarian ended up dying before the other one and was subject to many many health problems while the other whom simply ate healthy is still alive today. Now you may think that's crazy, but diet has a whole world of play in what happens to us, your body has to have things just right to keep your immune system working well and all that. As well as studies show that your brain does not function at higher levels without the levels of protein that meat provides in less amounts of food. Being a vegetarian can lead you a healthy life but you'll live a much healthier one with some meat in there.[/QUOTE] Maybe the vegetarian aunt was just not eating correctly and eating a crappy vegetarian diet. I can bring up many stories about vegetarians that lived longer than meat-eaters because of their "correct eating habits" but it is not going to make any point because someone else can just pull out stories of people who ate meat and lived healthier and whatever. Also the protein argument was already proved to be a myth about 10 years ago everywhere. You can get the same amount of protein on a vegetarian diet that you get on a meat eating diet. [QUOTE=Meller Yeller;34587375]I have a lot of vegetarian friends. They're fine except that the only place they ever want to eat is Taco Bell.[/QUOTE] Kinda laughed at this because my vegetarian friends always want to eat there too. Bean burritos :P

Idiots! They ar idiots!

[QUOTE=Simski;34587349]Most of us are perfectly fine with eating meat since we see eating meat as a natural means of survival. Humans are omnivores, not herbivores or carnivores, we're adapted to eat both meat and vegetables. We don't think it's morally wrong to kill other animals and eating them, because plenty of other animals do the exact same thing, and we've been doing this throughout our entire history. Besides, since they're not as intellectually advanced beings they aren't remotely as emotionally affected by it as humans.[/QUOTE] Let's say I live in a remote community where we all agree it's morally permissible to rape women. Just because rape is deemed moral by the community does it actually make it moral? As for the latter claim about animals not being intellectually advanced, I'd concede that point a little. But they're still fully equipped to feel intense pain, and it seems [I]hugely[/I] speciesist to claim that our convenience is seriously of equal - or greater - moral importance than the intense suffering of an even comparatively stupid being.

If cows, pigs, chickens and sheep don't want to be eaten, they shouldn't taste so damn good. [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Robbobin;34587402]Let's say I live in a remote community where we all agree it's morally permissible to rape women. Just because rape is deemed moral by the community does it actually make it moral? As for the latter claim about animals not being intellectually advanced, I'd concede that point a little. But they're still fully equipped to feel intense pain, and it seems [I]hugely[/I] speciesist to claim that our convenience is seriously of equal - or greater - moral importance than the intense suffering of an even comparatively stupid being.[/QUOTE] Most slaughterhouses kill them as painlessly as possible, so I don't think it really comes into it.

[QUOTE=Simski;34587389]Humans are far more intellectually advanced and would therefor be suffering a lot more than a cow or a pig raised to become food. Besides, they would be a lot harder to surveillance.[/QUOTE] Oh don't worry, we'd only letting a small family of humans suffer. Compared to the ~1.3 billion cattle. More or less the vast majority of those cattle are experiencing a great level of suffering. Their combined suffering is [I]seriously[/I] less morally valuable than our convenience?

[QUOTE=dogfood123;34587077]Has your family ever given her shit over her beliefs or do they support it or are they just neutral? Many veggies that I meet where I live have families that don't support their decision and ridicule them for it[/QUOTE] Nope, we all support her.

[QUOTE=squids_eye;34587410]Most slaughterhouses kill them as painlessly as possible, so I don't think it really comes into it.[/QUOTE] That's an empirical claim and I'm willing to bet that the majority, or at least a huge number, cares very little about the painlessness of their deaths. I've read numerous articles saying how much they disregard the suffering of animals but I'd have to investigate.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34587402]Let's say I live in a remote community where we all agree it's morally permissible to rape women. Just because rape is deemed moral by the community does it actually make it moral?[/QUOTE]According to your moral standards, yes it would be permissible. According to everyone else, no it would not. That's morals for you, something with no real definition and no real rules. Societies morals come from what's best for the greater good. [QUOTE=Robbobin;34587402]As for the latter claim about animals not being intellectually advanced, I'd concede that point a little. But they're still fully equipped to feel intense pain, and it seems [I]hugely[/I] speciesist to claim that our convenience is seriously of equal - or greater - moral importance than the intense suffering of an even comparatively stupid being.[/QUOTE] If we kill them in the most humane way with the least amount of pain involved, for the sake of putting food on our plates, I think it's perfectly alright.

[QUOTE=squids_eye;34587410]Most slaughterhouses kill them as painlessly as possible, so I don't think it really comes into it.[/QUOTE] Based on the videos of factory farms that I have seen I would have to say you are wrong on that one. I buy my chicken and meat from small farms that treat their animals in much better ways. I understand that many people cannot afford to buy from these farms, or just do not have access to them because they live in a city or some shit.

[QUOTE=Simski;34587437]According to your moral standards, yes it would be permissible. According to everyone else, no it would not. That's morals for you, something with no real definition and no real rules. Societies morals come from what's best for the greater good.[/QUOTE] Morality can't be based on moral norms [I]and[/I] what's best for the greatest number of people at once. The two are incompatible because there could be a society where the it's a moral norm to routinely axe your left foot off on your 13th birthday which clearly isn't the best for the greatest number.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34587465]Morality can't be based on moral norms [I]and[/I] what's best for the greatest number of people at once. The two are incompatible because there could be a society where the it's a moral norm to routinely axe your left foot off on your 13th birthday which clearly isn't the best for the greatest number.[/QUOTE] Morality does not have a definition. So yes, it can be based on your own opinion or it can be based on what's best for the greater good.

[QUOTE=Simski;34587674]Morality does not have a definition. So yes, it can be based on your own opinion or it can be based on what's best for the greater good.[/QUOTE] It cannot possibly be two incompatible things at once. And if you believe morality can be anything you want, what's the fucking point in partaking in ethical discussion?