Vegetarians - Your thoughts on them - General

[QUOTE=Simski;34595436]The fuck do you keep talking about rape then? It's silly, and people obviously don't fucking understand what point you're trying to make[/QUOTE] of course they do; it's incredibly simple. I used your argument form on a different moral situation and it proved to be wrong therefore you argument is invalid why the actual fuck is this so difficult for you to comprehend

I don't care for them, but they can do whatever they want as long as they don't try to convert anyone

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34595469]of course they do; it's incredibly simple. I used your argument form on a different moral situation and it proved to be wrong therefore you argument is invalid why the actual fuck is this so difficult for you to comprehend[/QUOTE] All I know is that in this entire thread you've been acting like the exact kind of person that makes so many people hate vegetarians, and I've been thoroughly amused reading your posts about why raping women is okay because we eat meat.

[QUOTE=Simski;34595540]All I know is that in this entire thread you've been acting like the exact kind of person that makes so many people hate vegetarians, and I've been thoroughly amused reading your posts about why raping women is okay because we eat meat.[/QUOTE] I reached that conclusion [I]WITH YOUR LOGIC.[/I] [I]YOU[/I] are the one committed to that view in virtue of your own arguments. [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] If this debate is any illustration of why people hate vegetarians, it's because they're too bad at philosophy to understand ethics.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34595552]I reached that conclusion [I]WITH YOUR LOGIC.[/I] [I]YOU[/I] are the one committed to that view in virtue of your own arguments. [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] If this debate is any illustration of why people hate vegetarians, it's because they're too bad at philosophy to understand ethics.[/QUOTE] Man, I would kill to see the philosophers of ancient Greece have deep philosophical battles about why rape is equal to eating meat.

[QUOTE=Simski;34595540]All I know is that in this entire thread you've been acting like the exact kind of person that makes so many people hate vegetarians[/QUOTE] no i'm pretty sure the hatred came first. literally you're just too daft to actually understand what robbobin is saying. like you're not getting the concept. if you'd gotten the concept then you could have taken it from there based on morality but it's like talking to a wall. [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Simski;34595646]Man, I would kill to see the philosophers of ancient Greece have deep philosophical battles about why rape is equal to eating meat.[/QUOTE] no he saying that your argument for not caring about eating meat is flawed because by that logic rape would be also be something not to care about. that's not saying rape is equal to eating meat.

am I being trolled right now or something because for the last half a dozen posts you've illustrated every single time without fail that you misunderstand my every reiteration of why you are objectively, analytically producing terrible philosophical arguments.

fuck off and stop telling me to not eat meat

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34595686]am I being trolled right now or something because for the last half a dozen posts you've illustrated every single time without fail that you misunderstand my every reiteration of why you are objectively, analytically producing terrible philosophical arguments.[/QUOTE] maybe he's a really good troll.

[QUOTE=thisispain;34595667]no i'm pretty sure the hatred came first. literally you're just too daft to actually understand what robbobin is saying. like you're not getting the concept. if you'd gotten the concept then you could have taken it from there based on morality but it's like talking to a wall.[/QUOTE] I said a long time ago that I don't even consider killing an animal for food to be even remotely as unethical as rape.

saying rape and eating meat in virtue of what I've said would be like saying throwing a brick at someone's head would kill them throwing a knife at someone's head would kill them therefore bricks are knives

[QUOTE=thisispain;34595667]no i'm pretty sure the hatred came first. literally you're just too daft to actually understand what robbobin is saying. like you're not getting the concept. if you'd gotten the concept then you could have taken it from there based on morality but it's like talking to a wall.[/QUOTE] Anybody who I met that "hates" or dislikes vegetarians and are questioned for their dislike usually say something along the lines of how pompous and condescending they seem to be.

[QUOTE=Simski;34595705]I said a long time ago that I don't even consider killing an animal for food to be even remotely as unethical as rape.[/QUOTE] no he's not comparing eating an animal for food to rape he's not saying you eat meat therefor you are raping or you like rape. he's saying that your previous argument about not caring was flawed because you could also dismiss rape using that logic.

Meat < Rape Rape is so OP

[QUOTE=Mr. N;34595745]Anybody who I met that "hates" or dislikes vegetarians and are questioned for their dislike usually say something along the lines of how pompous and condescending they seem to be.[/QUOTE] and in response they act just as pompous and condescending on an internet forum.

[QUOTE=Mr. N;34595745]Anybody who I met that "hates" or dislikes vegetarians and are questioned for their dislike usually say something along the lines of how pompous and condescending they seem to be.[/QUOTE] Maybe I've just been lucky but I've never experienced a single person act pompous or condescending about their diet, [I]except[/I] people who're vehemently against vegetarians. I swear you're all extrapolating from a friend of a friend of a friend's account of pompous or condescending vegetarians to there being loads which as far as I can tell simply isn't the case.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34595713]saying rape and eating meat in virtue of what I've said would be like saying throwing a brick at someone's head would kill them throwing a knife at someone's head would kill them therefore bricks are knives[/QUOTE] Look, I get what you're saying, I just don't take it serious because I don't think that killing an animal, is remotely as unethical as raping someone. There are reasons why rape is unethical, pain is only one of the reasons. There are reasons why killing an animal is perhaps unethical, but the upsides outweigh the downsides. There is no upside to rape.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;34595768]Why did you even bring up rape in an argument about vegetarianism. There are literally a million other things you could have said yet you chose the most absurd and irrelevant one.[/QUOTE] I chose it [I]because[/I] it was absurd. That was the whole fucking point. I wanted to illustrate just how terrible and invalid his argument was so I chose something that gives you an absurd, contradictory conclusion because that's how you fucking do philosophy.

[QUOTE=thisispain;34595776]and in response they act just as pompous and condescending on an internet forum.[/QUOTE] Yup. Vicous cycle innit? I think the dislike may have risen out of other people labeling it as weird, but I think the dislike people have for them now is the moral high ground vocal vegetarians give themselves.

[QUOTE=Simski;34595808]Look, I get what you're saying, I just don't take it serious because I don't think that killing an animal, is remotely as unethical as raping someone. There are reasons why rape is unethical, pain is only one of the reasons. There are reasons why killing an animal is perhaps unethical, but the upsides outweigh the downsides. There is no upside to rape.[/QUOTE] Sure there is; pleasure to the rapist. I'd disagree about the weighting. pros to eating meat: seems convenient (for westerners), is a moral norm, tasty, allegedly easier to get required nutrients cons to eating meat: ultimately inconvenient (as it requires such huge amounts of land, water and energy), causes the avoidable suffering of animals (for example there's about 1.3 billion cattle, the majority probably all suffering to a greater or lesser extent) [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Atlascore;34595831]No, no, that's just incredibly stupid and makes no sense at all. How does not caring about eating meat even remotely translate into dismissing rape, or dismissing anything else, it's all irrelevant to the damn argument we're having.[/QUOTE] shhhh you've been given enough opportunities to realise the validity of my argument so just ignore it.

[QUOTE=Simski;34595808]Look, I get what you're saying, I just don't take it serious because I don't think that killing an animal, is remotely as unethical as raping someone. There are reasons why rape is unethical, pain is only one of the reasons. There are reasons why killing an animal is perhaps unethical, but the upsides outweigh the downsides. There is no upside to rape.[/QUOTE] I agree with this, but there is an upside for the person doing the raping, otherwise they wouldn't. I'm fine with them because it's potentially healthier and if they don't think eating animals is right, then that's their choice. But we've been doing this since the beginning of our existence, and so have many other species all across the world. I believe there is a mark of self awareness that does move into the range where it's not morally permissible, such as eating Dolphins. But cows and such I find are okay to kill as long as it's done humanely and efficiently. Sadly that's not really the case in America, but I still think we're better than Japan.

[QUOTE=Mr. N;34595876]Yup. Vicous cycle innit? I think the dislike may have risen out of other people labeling it as weird, but I think the dislike people have for them now is the moral high ground vocal vegetarians give themselves.[/QUOTE] It's not a totally unjustified moral high ground, though. If it was an issue totally unrelated to ethics, taking the high ground would be absurd and pompous and condescending. But I think there's sufficient cause for there to be a genuine moral position against the consumption of meat (in large quantities such as in the western world). I contend that the only reason people resist the argument so much is because they're pathologically obsessed with meat and maintaining their dominion to do whatever they want regardless of moral ramifications.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34595976]It's not a totally unjustified moral high ground, though. If it was an issue totally unrelated to ethics, taking the high ground would be absurd and pompous and condescending. But I think there's sufficient cause for there to be a genuine moral position against the consumption of meat (in large quantities such as in the western world). I contend that the only reason people resist the argument so much is because they're pathologically obsessed with meat and maintaining their dominion to do whatever they want regardless of moral ramifications.[/QUOTE] People just don't have the same moral values as you, get over it.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34595801]Maybe I've just been lucky but I've never experienced a single person act pompous or condescending about their diet, [I]except[/I] people who're vehemently against vegetarians. I swear you're all extrapolating from a friend of a friend of a friend's account of pompous or condescending vegetarians to there being loads which as far as I can tell simply isn't the case.[/QUOTE] You would see it all the time in the media for one. Secondly, you must be truly lucky to have never met someone who is pulling the moral superiority card about the whole thing, because from personal experiance and the sheer amount of people who know about it online and in reallife is surprisingly common.

[QUOTE=Simski;34595990]People just don't have the same moral values as you, get over it.[/QUOTE] Moral subjectivism is just a cop out to be honest. If there's not an objective fact to the matter, there's no point in discussing it rationally.

I'm fine with you being a vegetarian, why can't you be fine with us eating meat? Really, I've only been acting offensive because you replied in an absurd manner and I found it amusing to see where you'd go with it. Honestly, read my first fucking post of this thread and tell me that you should not have expected this.

[QUOTE=Mr. N;34595992]You would see it all the time in the media for one. Secondly, you must be truly lucky to have never met someone who is pulling the moral superiority card about the whole thing, because from personal experiance and the sheer amount of people who know about it online and in reallife is surprisingly common.[/QUOTE] I guess I'm just lucky then. About a dozen people I see regularly (as in, a few times a week, at least) are vegetarian and there is literally not a single instance where they've pulled the moral superiority card. I doubt I'm that lucky though and I imagine the whole situation is blown massively out of proportion, as they normally do when people feel their beliefs are under threat.

[QUOTE=Simski;34596038]I'm fine with you being a vegetarian, why can't you be fine with us eating meat? Really, I've only been acting offensive because you replied in an absurd manner and I found is amusing to see where you'd go with it.[/QUOTE] I'm not even trying to change your mind; I'm trying to get you to accept responsibility for your decision to eat meat. If we have the capacity to condemn those who commit other immoral acts, such as rape, we have the capacity to condemn this particular immoral act, in virtue of it being immoral. I feel hugely dissatisfied with your debate, as you'd list some reasons why you think eating meat is good and then when I provide a better list against it, you pull the MORALS ARE SUBJECTIVE NANANANANA YOU CAN'T BEAT ME card and it just feels like such a cop out. People cling onto their moral beliefs with such vehemency even in light of genuine analytic refutation and it's just frustrating for me as a philosopher.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;34596126]Why do you keep bringing up westerners? Just as many people eat meat in Asia, Africa, and the rest of the planet.[/QUOTE] No they don't. Only 2 billion people eat predominantly meat, while 4 million eat predominantly plants.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34596141]I'm not even trying to change your mind; I'm trying to get you to accept responsibility for your decision to eat meat. If we have the capacity to condemn those who commit other immoral acts, such as rape, we have the capacity to condemn this particular immoral act, in virtue of it being immoral. I feel hugely dissatisfied with your debate, as you'd list some reasons why you think eating meat is good and then when I provide a better list against it, you pull the MORALS ARE SUBJECTIVE NANANANANA YOU CAN'T BEAT ME card and it just feels like such a cop out. People cling onto their moral beliefs with such vehemency even in light of genuine analytic refutation and it's just frustrating for me as a philosopher.[/QUOTE] You keep saying that I should think of killing animals for food as an immoral act, while simply assuming that comparing it to other immoral acts will make me connect the dots or something and suddenly come to a realization that I agree with you. I do not. I don't have any ethical issues with animals being systematically raised and slaughtered for food, as long as said actions are not executed with unnecessarily inhumane methods.