Vegetarians - Your thoughts on them - General

[QUOTE=Atlascore;34596157]Heh.. Haha.. Pffthahahahahahahahahahahaha Edit: Watch out guys we got an armchair philosopher here.[/QUOTE] what I study philosophy at university

Your argument works against me just as using a fishing rod to dangle a juicy steak in front of the face of a vegetarian while chanting "delicious, delicious, delicious".

[QUOTE=Simski;34596207]You keep saying that I should think of killing animals for food as an immoral act, while simply assuming that comparing it to other immoral acts will make me connect the dots or something and suddenly come to a realization that I agree with you. I do not. I don't have any ethical issues with animals being systematically raised and slaughtered for food, as long as said actions are not executed with unnecessarily inhumane methods.[/QUOTE] If suffering isn't in your criteria for moral judgement you must be using a very bizarre set of moral criteria. [editline]8th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Atlascore;34596236]Please don't tell me you major in it.[/QUOTE] I study straight philosophy and I'm doing really fucking well.

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34596241]If suffering isn't in your criteria for moral judgement you must be using a very bizarre set of moral criteria.[/QUOTE] If the killing is of an creature that does not have complex thoughts or emotions, or if they're inherently evil (horses), the killing is done in a humane way, the the killing is for a good cause (giving people food), then I am not morally against it. I am against using inhumane methods and living conditions. Suffering, sentience, usefulness, upsides, downsides... it's all relevant. I like to think of it as "the greater good, with realism included".

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34595895]Sure there is; pleasure to the rapist. I'd disagree about the weighting. pros to eating meat: seems convenient (for westerners), is a moral norm, tasty, allegedly easier to get required nutrients cons to eating meat: ultimately inconvenient (as it requires such huge amounts of land, water and energy), causes the avoidable suffering of animals (for example there's about 1.3 billion cattle, the majority probably all suffering to a greater or lesser extent) [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] shhhh you've been given enough opportunities to realise the validity of my argument so just ignore it.[/QUOTE] [quote] It's not a totally unjustified moral high ground, though. If it was an issue totally unrelated to ethics, taking the high ground would be absurd and pompous and condescending. But I think there's sufficient cause for there to be a genuine moral position against the consumption of meat (in large quantities such as in the western world). I contend that the only reason people resist the argument so much is because they're pathologically obsessed with meat and maintaining their dominion to do whatever they want regardless of moral ramifications.[/quote] Meat has been convenient for every race and culture western or not. It is almost cultural, in a sense, that we eat meat as a race. Also of course it causes goddamn suffering to the animals, but suffering and pain are parts of life. Sure we should try to lessen it, but to want to do away with eating meat over it is insane. Also farming also requires huge tracts of land and resources, I fail to see your point there. To me rearing animals is just like farming for fruits/veggies/etc resource wise. But on a moral standpoint, animals have been eaten since there have been animals. It isn't that people are obsessed, it's just that people have always been doing it, and to stop doing it seems to be lunacy. I hate to be the guy to blame any bad content on the time of day/the fact I am using an iPod to write, but I must be going to bed. The basic jist of it is that we have aways been doing it, and we never will stop doing it. End of.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;34596268]Hey genius, there aren't 2 billion people in the western world. Also predominantly doesn't mean they only consume one thing, there's plenty of meat eaters on this planet, just because they don't consume it with every meal doesn't mean they don't eat it at all.[/QUOTE] I meant worldwide. And I wasn't talking about pure vegetarianism; merely supporting my claim that the western world has a particularly meat-heavy diet (which it does as a matter of empirical fact). [editline]8th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Atlascore;34596299]Doing well in what, university? What kind of highly successful career would you pursue as a philosophy major?[/QUOTE] this is all very ad hoc and boring but I plan to lecture [editline]8th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. N;34596302]Meat has been convenient for every race and culture western or not. It is almost cultural, in a sense, that we eat meat as a race. Also of course it causes goddamn suffering to the animals, but suffering and pain are parts of life. Sure we should try to lessen it, but to want to do away with eating meat over it is insane. Also farming also requires huge tracts of land and resources, I fail to see your point there. To me rearing animals is just like farming for fruits/veggies/etc resource wise. But on a moral standpoint, animals have been eaten since there have been animals. It isn't that people are obsessed, it's just that people have always been doing it, and to stop doing it seems to be lunacy. I hate to be the guy to blame any bad content on the time of day/the fact I am using an iPod to write, but I must be going to bed. The basic jist of it is that we have aways been doing it, and we never will stop doing it. End of.[/QUOTE] We don't [I]have[/I] to eat meat as a race. It's not a necessary ingredient to being human. Just because it seems intuitively crazy to stop eating meat altogether, it doesn't make it so. Intuitions are useless, largely. It takes many, many times less land, water and energy to produce plants as it does animals. I've read numerous statistics, but the most salient one I remember is it takes seven times more land to produce the same amount of calorific content in animals as it does plants. Still fail to see my point? Again, people always doing something does not make it morally permissible. It makes it very difficult to break the chain, but it [I]does not[/I] legitimise it. Imagine a world where we all routinely gang up on someone and beat them to death. It's gone on since the dawn of time and it's accepted as common practice even though it's benefits (e.g. sating bloodlust) are outweight by the costs (suffering caused from the initiation of force for no reason). It's fully conceivable for such a society to break out of such a practice, and it would be in their collective best interests to do so, so there is a great sense in which it is an immoral practice even though it's such commonplace. If moral norms are a standard of moral legitimacy, you're committed to these sorts of scenarios being totally morally permissible.

jesus christ facepunch how can you not understand basic philosophical logic and arguments y'all need a class in critical thinking

I'm an epicurean, and you are standing in my way of enjoying good food. Not cool dude.

[QUOTE=DuncanFrost;34596542]jesus christ facepunch how can you not understand basic philosophical logic and arguments y'all need a class in critical thinking[/QUOTE] painful isn't it? it's like they give me a maths equation and blame me when I tell them what x can equal.

I need to buy new chorizo sausages, someone stole mine from the refrigerator :( [editline]8th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Robbobin;34596580]painful isn't it? it's like they give me a maths equation and blame me when I tell them what x can equal.[/QUOTE] It's more like having to see someone go on about rather absurd and off topic rants honestly. [editline]8th February 2012[/editline] Be more like Epicurus if you want my attention, best dude in the entire universe holy shit

What everyone else said, plus I don't think it's particularly healthy, and you're missing out on a lot of good food :v:

I'm really at the point where if it doesn't matter health-wise, go ahead, just don't shove that shit in my face, don't tell me I'm some fucking evil sin upon the earth, just enjoy your leafs and I'll enjoy my steak. Vegans are the fucking worst, we had this one smelly vegan girl, she never showered or anything and was always dirty and a complete bitch, and all she does is shove her dirty bitch nose into everyone's way and lecture them about fucking meat and animal products, bitch if I cared so much I'd ask you dumb cunt.

Sometimes, I really miss the funny rating in this subforum. [editline]8th February 2012[/editline] Fucking banana.. I couldn't find any tasty meat products right now. Oh well. Bananas are alright. Especially because of how they sort of resemble penises. [editline]8th February 2012[/editline] Makes it totally erotic to eat bananas [editline]8th February 2012[/editline] no homo

I have no hard feelings towards vegetarians. After all, I can see why they'd wanna do it. Has anyone seen how our food is made? I think vegetarians are just fine as long as they don't walk around and say "There's fat in that" or stuff like "Do you even care that that was a live animal?" I mean, they're not much different. The only difference is what they eat.

It's not vegetarians I hate -- it's the reasons they become vegetarians. I.E. "They slaughter animals to make meat and it is bad for you" etc etc

If you become a philosophy professor or whatever, promise me that you will not lecture your students about eating meat. Really, nothing will make people skip class as much that that would.

My opinion towards vegetarians is basically: Whatever, moar meat for me :)

[QUOTE=jbthekid;34596854]I have no hard feelings towards vegetarians. After all, I can see why they'd wanna do it. Has anyone seen how our food is made? I think vegetarians are just fine as long as they don't walk around and say "There's fat in that" or stuff like "Do you even care that that was a live animal?" I mean, they're not much different. The only difference is what they eat.[/QUOTE] Oh that reminds me, I've eaten raw meat while in a survival situation when my dog and I got lost while hunting, man it wasn't that bad, I mean granted it's probably not safe to do if it was supermarket bought or anything, that shit's nasty anyway though, worst meat ever. I'd gladly eat raw deer over super market steak any day. So, hell yeah, it was a live animal, but then I shot it, so it's ok now.

I am against it because I am against most deviation from our primal diet, comprising of mostly meat and found fruit and nuts. That diet kept our teeth healthy, our stomachs slim and our children healthy. Then we found grains and sugar....

[QUOTE=Robbobin;34596241]If suffering isn't in your criteria for moral judgement you must be using a very bizarre set of moral criteria.[/QUOTE] Stop trying to establish a direct link between the consumption of meat and suffering of farm animals. You're focusing on a very small part of a much bigger picture. One that most people don't even know exists. Industrialized farming is an adaptation that exists for the market, not for individual consumers. The goal isn't simply to produce meat, it's to produce as much meat in as little time as possible. The only inhumane practice of industrialized farming that isn't exclusive to it is the slaughter, which is necessary for meat to be produced regardless of whether or not you're a human. More traditional farms, which is where most people tend to think their meat is coming from, are pretty much the natural habitat of farm animals. Generally the only bad thing people expect to be a result of producing meat is animals dying quickly and painlessly, which few people have a problem with because it seems natural. They aren't asking for animals to suffer and they don't need to make animals suffer to be able to eat meat. On it's own the consumption of meat is no more immoral than the consumption of chocolate. Now if you want to talk about the production of meat being unnecessary or wasteful than fine, but production and consumption are two different things. Fact of the matter is that an individual doesn't need a farm to get meat at all, it's just convenient. But if you wanted to you could just go hunt a wild animal and not support any farms, and you'd still be able to eat meat.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I actually can't think of any sound logical arguments in favor of eating meat. The only justification I can think of seems to be "it tastes good".

More meat for me. I don't really care as long as they don't wave it in my face or try to demoralize my burger. I tell them to fuck right the hell off if they do. Either that or I cut a bite-sized piece of my burger patty off and stuff it in their mouth. Muffles the rhetoric nicely. [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Noble;34597803]I'm not a vegetarian, but I actually can't think of any sound logical arguments in favor of eating meat. The only justification I can think of seems to be "it tastes good".[/QUOTE] So we have incisors and a digestive system capable of handling meat just for shits and giggles? Evolution/God/George Carlin/whomever you believe in gave us those features just because they were taking up space on the parts shelf? Look at your own body. It's built to eat anything. Plant, animal, processed byproduct, it doesn't care. Saying there isn't a logical reason to eat meat is like saying there's no logical reason for a car to have more than one seat and a spacious trunk because all most people do is solo commute to and from work with it. Honestly though, I wouldn't care if we had those features or not. Steaks and burgers are fucking delicious.

[QUOTE=TestECull;34598121] So we have incisors and a digestive system capable of handling meat just for shits and giggles? Evolution/God/George Carlin/whomever you believe in gave us those features just because they were taking up space on the parts shelf?[/quote] You could possibly argue that these are just evolutionary leftovers and we don't need them anymore. An example would be that men have nipples, which really serve no function. [quote]Look at your own body. It's built to eat anything. Plant, animal, processed byproduct, it doesn't care. Saying there isn't a logical reason to eat meat is like saying there's no logical reason for a car to have more than one seat and a spacious trunk because all most people do is solo commute to and from work with it.[/quote] Maybe I should have been more clear and said something like "ethical/moral/logical reasons for eating meat instead of eating fruits/vegetables" or something along those lines.

[QUOTE=TestECull;34598121] So we have incisors and a digestive system capable of handling meat just for shits and giggles? [/QUOTE] incisors are for cutting, not chewing meat. that's the function of the molar. and the digestive system handles whatever a person can eat. if you're eating only one thing your whole life it's possible to become violently ill from eating something else.

[QUOTE=Noble;34597803]I'm not a vegetarian, but I actually can't think of any sound logical arguments in favor of eating meat. The only justification I can think of seems to be "it tastes good".[/QUOTE] Tastes good, is nutritionally dense, is a great source of several vitamins that most vegetarians have to use supplements to get efficient amounts of, is one of the most bioavailable forms of protein, etc. I don't really have a problem with people who are vegetarian because of their moral beliefs, that's fine, but if you are a vegetarian, please don't go around spreading your propaganda about how a vegetarian diet is magically more "healthy" than a omnivorous diet, because it's not.

[QUOTE=Noble;34598402]You could possibly argue that these are just evolutionary leftovers and we don't need them anymore. [/quote] Except that that argument falls to pieces when you mention nutrients red and white meat are abundant in that plants just simply aren't. You have to be VERY picky if you're strictly vegetarian, and often have to add supplements anyway, whereas if you eat both you can be far more "whatev" with your intake and still get all the nutrients you need. We're designed to eat both. [quote]Maybe I should have been more clear and said something like "ethical/moral/logical reasons for eating meat instead of eating fruits/vegetables" or something along those lines.[/QUOTE] Morals have no place in the kitchen, IMO. Neither do ethics. Flavor and nutrition are what does. As for a logical reason, I've already pointed out that our bodies are designed to eat a bit of both, so that shoots holes in both meat only and veggy only diets pretty nicely. [editline]7th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;34598615]incisors are for cutting, not chewing meat.[/QUOTE] Herbivores don't have them. Carnivores and omnivores, however, do. We also have canines, something herbivores don't. The fact that we have them is proof we're supposed to be eating meat in some quantity.

I can understand that there might be a lot of nutritional value in eating meats. However, what's stopping us from eating cats and dogs compared to any other animal?

[QUOTE=TestECull;34598924] Herbivores don't have them. [/QUOTE] what most mammals have incisors. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_teeth[/url] a horse has 12 at the front and is a complete herbivore. it doesn't matter because you don't chew meat with your incisors anyway. i think you need to take some classes on anatomy.

Humans are built to adapt to certain environments, and we are technically "higher up" in a "food chain", mainly because we have much greater cognitive abilities than animals. It has been a common practice to domesticate animals for clothing, labor, protection, and food for thousands of years because they can be coaxed into doing so. Animals also eat lesser beings, so I do not see why we should be denied the same right. We also kill plants for food, which are technically organisms, because they have useful properties that are tied to nutrition. [QUOTE=Rad McCool;34586929]Don't you guys have any balls? How about standing up for your reasons to eat meat and not be afraid of having an argument? You're just looking for reasons to piss on vegetarians.[/QUOTE] stop

I don't know where all these fabled "pushy vegans" all come from, I've never seen them - considering that I live in a liberal East Coast suburb, if they're out there, I should have found them by now. I see meat-eaters insult and condescend to vegans and vegetarians far more than vice-versa. Types in this thread really need to stop being flippant little shits, making meat-eating a cultural crusade against "those goddamn self-righteous hippies". On vegetarianism itself, I couldn't mind less. I personally try not to consider the fates of non-humans in my morality. I mean, I empathize with animals, sure, I'd be disgusted by animal torture and the people who perpetrate it, but I understand morality as a system that functions specifically to help my species, and therefore only applies to my species. That's why I don't have any qualms about eating animal meat. Despite that, I still get the whole moral side to vegetarianism. What I don't get are people who eat meat and still say they care about animals - I mean, unless you're a maasai goatherd or you hunt all your meat or something, eating meat means willingly and needlessly enabling a system in which animals are raised in shitty conditions and killed in droves, all because you like the taste, or don't want to go through the effort of sticking to a well-balanced vegetarian diet. Once you get to that point, I don't see a lot of room for decrying the way people mistreat them. I'm not realistically expecting these types to stop eating factory-farmed meat, and I'm not saying that I'm so morally pure when I use consumer goods assembled by third-world labor systems that I detest, but one has to acknowledge that it's a bit hypocritical. Or maybe one thinks that the animals are better off that way.