• G20 protest videos
    275 replies, posted
[QUOTE=DPennington;17542192]They weren't punishing everyone, they were trying to get crowds under control, organized, or dispersed.[/QUOTE] They were firing tear gas, pepper, marching around with clubs and demanding everyone leave the immediate area no matter what in blatant defiance to First Amendment rights to peacefully assemble. They were being punished. Not only that, but they were INSTIGATING violence. There was no real violence until the cops rolled in telling people to leave.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17542195]You said in your hypothetical situation that one person bashed up your house. You punish that ONE person. You don't punish 4.5 thousand people for the actions of that one person.[/QUOTE] You know the difference between you and I is that you're going by the book, this is how it is. I'm going by this is how it would work out better, this is what's more practical.
[QUOTE=Archy;17542213]Yeah, but 40 people did that to other houses and such too.[/QUOTE] Then you arrest 40 people. The end.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17542221]Then you arrest 40 people. The end.[/QUOTE] They did that, though... what's the issue?
[QUOTE=DPennington;17542219]You know the difference between you and I is that you're going by the book, this is how it is. I'm going by this is how it would work out better, this is what's more practical.[/QUOTE] Uhh, you realize you're proposing a police state, right? Go to China. Come back. Tell me you still like police states. [editline]08:37PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Archy;17542235]They did that, though... what's the issue?[/QUOTE] The issue is that they dispersed the rest of the 4 thousand and some peaceful demonstrators without just cause. They were entirely within their rights.
[quote]The issue is that they dispersed the rest of the 4 thousand and some peaceful demonstrators without just cause. They were entirely within their rights.[/QUOTE] Well, it's not like they can tell who's being violent right away in a huge crowd of 4 thousand...
By the by, Pennington, "The Book" in this case is the Constitution. You are saying we need to defy it to "work better." I don't think you understand that is fascism.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17542221]Then you arrest 40 people. The end.[/QUOTE] What if you can't find the 40? What if they're mixed with the rest of the crowd? What if everyone in that crowd is resisting orders and is now in harms way of those violent people? Or worse, now working with them? And then all of a sudden, the crowd begins to turn on you, shouting at you and blocking roads and throwing bricks and bottles?
[QUOTE=Archy;17542266]Well, it's not like they can tell who's being violent right away in a huge crowd of 4 thousand...[/QUOTE] Clearly they could tell at least 40 of them, one of which had caused 20k in property damage. Seems like they were doing pretty well.
[QUOTE=DPennington;17542270]What if you can't find the 40? What if they're mixed with the rest of the crowd? What if everyone in that crowd is resisting orders and is now in harms way of those violent people? Or worse, now working with them? And then all of a sudden, the crowd begins to turn on you, shouting at you and blocking roads and throwing bricks and bottles?[/QUOTE] I second this. What about that? [QUOTE=Lankist]Clearly they could tell at least 40 of them, one of which had caused 20k in property damage. Seems like they were doing pretty well.[/Quote] See Pennington's post.
[QUOTE=DPennington;17542270]What if you can't find the 40?[/QUOTE] That is moot. They DID find the 40. They were arrested. [editline]08:40PM[/editline] And if they are aiding and abetting criminals they are no longer protected by the First Amendment. [editline]08:40PM[/editline] If it turns into a riot, THEN they can disperse. But it DIDN'T turn into a riot. They DIDN'T aid criminals. Your point is dumb and moot because it is FICTION.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17542287]That is moot. They DID find the 40. They were arrested.[/QUOTE] Now, how do you know if there were more than 40, all of which couldn't be discerned from the peaceful portion of the crowd? It appears we have different views on police effectiveness.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17542236]Uhh, you realize you're proposing a police state, right? Go to China. Come back. Tell me you still like police states. [editline]08:37PM[/editline] The issue is that they dispersed the rest of the 4 thousand and some peaceful demonstrators without just cause. They were entirely within their rights.[/QUOTE] Uh, no, I'm not. I'm not saying take away the 1st amendment or the constitution or for that matter give the police and local authorities the ability to override federal, but what I am saying is that had, in this case, we followed the local laws then things would have been much smoother and easier for everyone. This isn't always the case, obviously, but it seems obvious based on the cause and effects here that it is the case, and that it will likely always be the case in situations like this.
[QUOTE=Archy;17542311]Now, how do you know if there were more than 40, all of which couldn't be discerned from the peaceful portion of the crowd?[/QUOTE] If there were more than 40 it's the police's job to find them and arrest them without abuse of the law-abiding citizenry. That's sort of why the police exist. [editline]08:42PM[/editline] [QUOTE=DPennington;17542315]Uh, no, I'm not. I'm not saying take away the 1st amendment or the constitution or for that matter give the police and local authorities the ability to override federal, but what I am saying is that had, in this case, we followed the local laws then things would have been much smoother and easier for everyone. This isn't always the case, obviously, but it seems obvious based on the cause and effects here that it is the case, and that it will likely always be the case in situations like this.[/QUOTE] Had we arrested a hundred thousand Asians Pearl Harbor wouldn't have happened. Doesn't make it right. Safety does not come before liberty. The Bill of Rights CANNOT be bypassed for ANY reason. AT ALL. EVER.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17542326]If there were more than 40 it's the police's job to find them and arrest them without abuse of the law-abiding citizenry. That's sort of why the police exist.[/QUOTE] Police are human though, they don't have superpowers that tell right away who's being violent. There would be so many logistical issues in finding all of the criminals.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17542287]That is moot. They DID find the 40. They were arrested. [editline]08:40PM[/editline] And if they are aiding and abetting criminals they are no longer protected by the First Amendment. [editline]08:40PM[/editline] If it turns into a riot, THEN they can disperse. But it DIDN'T turn into a riot. They DIDN'T aid criminals. Your point is dumb and moot because it is FICTION.[/QUOTE] No, they found only 40, for all you or any of them knows there could have been more. And the situation is fact. Violent protesters were mixed in with groups of students and unruly crowds of mixed organizations and passerbys who joined in. They should have the right to disperse if the crowds are unruly, blocking roads, disturbing the peace, causing overall trouble, and contained criminals.
[QUOTE=Archy;17542345]Police are human though, they don't have superpowers that tell right away who's being violent. There would be so many logistical issues in finding all of the crooks.[/QUOTE] So then we should just go ahead and become a police state! It'd make things so much easier for the police! No. You've clearly never been to South Central LA. [editline]08:44PM[/editline] [QUOTE=DPennington;17542367]No, they found only 40, for all you or any of them knows there could have been more. And the situation is fact. Violent protesters were mixed in with groups of students and unruly crowds of mixed organizations and passerbys who joined in. They should have the right to disperse if the crowds are unruly, blocking roads, disturbing the peace, causing overall trouble, and contained criminals.[/QUOTE] The police's entire job is to find the rest. Goddamn, are you retarded? Do you seriously not see how dumb you're being? Saying "It will be hard for police to find criminals." NO SHIT! That's their fucking JOB.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17542373]So then we should just go ahead and become a police state! It'd make things so much easier for the police! No. You've clearly never been to South Central LA.[/QUOTE] I'm not proposing that. I'm just saying it'd be far too difficult to individually go through 4000 people to spot those who are being violent, all without incorrectly arresting someone. Yes, I know it's their job, but YOU try doing that, WITHOUT a bird's eye view.
[QUOTE=Archy;17542388]I'm not proposing that. I'm just saying it'd be far too difficult to individually go through 4000 people to spot those who are being violent[/QUOTE] Do the police go door to door checking for criminals under normal circumstances? No. They patrol and keep an eye out and take reports. That's exactly what they're SUPPOSED to do with protests, too. What you're proposing would be like voiding the entire system of warrants so police can just come into your house and search for contraband any time they wanted to.
[QUOTE=Archy;17542388]I'm not proposing that. I'm just saying it'd be far too difficult to individually go through 4000 people to spot those who are being violent, all without incorrectly arresting someone. Yes, I know it's their job, but YOU try doing that, WITHOUT a bird's eye view.[/QUOTE] So we should deprive all of them of their rights ?
[QUOTE=Lankist;17542406]Do the police go door to door checking for criminals under normal circumstances? No. They patrol and keep an eye out and take reports. That's exactly what they're SUPPOSED to do with protests, too. What you're proposing would be like voiding the entire system of warrants so police can just come into your house and search for contraband any time they wanted to.[/QUOTE] [quote=Mechanical43]So we should deprive all of them of their rights ? [/quote] No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the police did the right thing logistically, but probably not morally. I can understand them pushing back the entire crowd to get them under control. I can also understand the protesters becoming upset.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17542326]If there were more than 40 it's the police's job to find them and arrest them without abuse of the law-abiding citizenry. That's sort of why the police exist. [editline]08:42PM[/editline] Had we arrested a hundred thousand Asians Pearl Harbor wouldn't have happened. Doesn't make it right. Safety does not come before liberty. The Bill of Rights CANNOT be bypassed for ANY reason. AT ALL. EVER.[/QUOTE] I don't live off the fucking Bill of Rights, I live off the laws based upon to and expanded from it. Everything in the Bill of Rights is covered in law elsewhere, and there's plenty of laws not covered in the constitution that are important to me, or you, or everyone. You can't just ignore some laws and demand others, all laws are laws for a reason, and they do sometimes conflict, but then you have to ask which would be better for everyone? The constitution only says we have the right to peacefully assemble, permits do not stop or oppose that (or at leas they should not. Denial of permits is wrong, but it doesn't give them the right to protest anyway on their own rules. The 6 groups who took it to court did the correct thing.) Peaceful assembly with organization, or unorganized peaceful assembly that can become unruly and turn non peaceful?
[QUOTE=DPennington;17542445]I don't live off the fucking Bill of Rights, I live off the laws based upon to and expanded from it. Everything in the Bill of Rights is covered in law elsewhere, and there's plenty of laws not covered in the constitution that are important to me, or you, or everyone. You can't just ignore some laws and demand others, all laws are laws for a reason, and they do sometimes conflict, but then you have to ask which would be better for everyone? The constitution only says we have the right to peacefully assemble, permits do not stop or oppose that (or at leas they should not. Denial of permits is wrong, but it doesn't give them the right to protest anyway on their own rules. The 6 groups who took it to court did the correct thing.) Peaceful assembly with organization, or unorganized peaceful assembly that can become unruly and turn non peaceful?[/QUOTE] Jesus Christ you are incredibly asinine. Not all laws are equal. Federal laws are greater than State laws are greater than District laws are greater than Local laws. Honestly I'm done with you. You refuse to read and you consistently ignore the explanation of the permits system. [editline]08:50PM[/editline] Hey guys something bad MIGHT happen so let's punish everyone who could possibly do something bad in some rare circumstance! [editline]08:50PM[/editline] No, you git.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17542373] The police's entire job is to find the rest. Goddamn, are you retarded? Do you seriously not see how dumb you're being? Saying "It will be hard for police to find criminals." NO SHIT! That's their fucking JOB.[/QUOTE] I'm being realistic. Some situations cannot be handled under normal circumstances or are too large for the resources and people available to handle. You do what would be the best outcome for everyone at that point.
[QUOTE=DPennington;17542477]I'm being realistic. Some situations cannot be handled under normal circumstances or are too large for the resources and people available to handle. You do what would be the best outcome for everyone at that point.[/QUOTE] So therefore let's just violate people's constitutional rights! Because it's just so HARD!
Godwin's incoming.
[QUOTE=Lankist;17542488]So therefore let's just violate people's constitutional rights! Because it's just so HARD![/QUOTE] Again, cops are NOT superhuman. They have limits. They can't instantly detect who is violent. This was basically the police saying, "Ah, screw this. Just cut things short and break it up. Nobody gets their cake. D:<"
[QUOTE=Lankist;17542465]Jesus Christ you are incredibly asinine. Not all laws are equal. Federal laws are greater than State laws are greater than District laws are greater than Local laws. Honestly I'm done with you. You refuse to read and you consistently ignore the explanation of the permits system. [editline]08:50PM[/editline] Hey guys something bad MIGHT happen so let's punish everyone who could possibly do something bad in some rare circumstance! [editline]08:50PM[/editline] No, you git.[/QUOTE] Might? What part of unruly crowds, property damage, inability to control and organize the crowds is a might in this? And like I said, I don't care if that's how the permit system works or that federal laws override local laws- no one gave these protesters the ability to ignore local laws, and they abandoned their right to peacefully protest when they began disturbing the peace, blocking streets, and then later assaulting officers and damaging property. Far as I see, the fact that they were not abiding by federal laws or local laws and being violent nulls any right to protest they had. But whatever, I'm through too.
[QUOTE=Archy;17542532]Again, cops are NOT superhuman. They have limits. They can't instantly detect who is violent. This was basically them saying, "Ah, screw this. Just cut things short and break it up. Nobody gets their cake. D:<"[/QUOTE] So therefore because cops are inept we need to just disregard basic constitutional rights. No.
[QUOTE=DPennington;17542536]Might? What part of unruly crowds, property damage, inability to control and organize the crowds is a might in this? And like I said, I don't care if that's how the permit system works or that federal laws override local laws- no one gave these protesters the ability to ignore local laws, and they abandoned their right to peacefully protest when they began disturbing the peace, blocking streets, and then later assaulting officers and damaging property. Far as I see, the fact that they were not abiding by federal laws or local laws and being violent nulls any right to protest they had. But whatever, I'm through too.[/QUOTE] So now they were ALL unruly and did property damage?
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