[QUOTE=dai;44503640]
It is not a concept people actively created, nor follow intentionally, rather how we and generations before were simply raised, evolving as a social norm for these kind of factors...
...Yes, you [I]can [/I]be a good feminist and focus on specific issues related only to women's rights, but to actively proclaim you don't support the other concepts is missing the point and leading back into radical territory.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;44504656]did you even read what you just posted[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44502025]simply pointing out the crazies. With a movement as huge as feminism you can't really say that criticizing any element of it is criticizing the movement as a whole.
[/QUOTE]
The crazies. The feminists who believe that men can't be negatively affected by gender roles. The ones that physically harass people who want to address issues facing other genders, etc. Most feminists are not like this but the amount of crazies is getting larger.
That or just getting louder because of all the reactionary MRA stuff and introduction to the internets noble gaming communities.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44504882]either they're morons that don't want to describe themselves with something that has the word 'fem' in it, or they're morons that don't understand what feminism is and assume because it has 'fem' in it it must just be about women[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure if you look at any definition besides the one in your head, feminism revolves primarily around women. You can make vague claims that fighting the patriarchy or whatever bullshit helps men too, but there is no holistic approach and if no-one actually does anything then you're not helping.
Look at this [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1383977]thread[/url], do you really think any feminist would give a fuck about eating disorders in men?
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44504887]The crazies. The feminists who believe that men can't be negatively affected by gender roles. The ones that physically harass people who want to address issues facing other genders, etc. Most feminists are not like this but the amount of crazies is getting larger.
That or just getting louder because of all the reactionary MRA stuff and introduction to the internets noble gaming communities.[/QUOTE]
what about the crazy MRAs that say things like "I'll make you a rape victim if you don't fuck off," the ones that make highly sensational videos and practically invite their mindless idiot fans to flame people, the ones who make flash games where you beat up some lady who had the [I]audacity[/I] to say "hey, maybe we should talk about sexism in games," or the ones that threaten and laugh at people who care about others' feelings about gender? lmao, we get it. quit it.
can you stop going into every thread and say "but the crazy ones" to justify all this anti-feminist bullshit? like, literally everyone here knows that [I]literally every group in the history of mankind[/I] has undesirables. i'm a huge weeb and i acknowledge that there's creeps that want to have sex with their little sisters. i'm a huge furry and i am aware of the literal zoophiles. [I]i'm a feminist and i'm aware that there are a lot of "ugh fuck men" people.[/I] enough.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;44504939]I'm pretty sure if you look at any definition besides the one in your head, feminism revolves primarily around women. You can make vague claims that fighting the patriarchy or whatever bullshit helps men too, but there is no holistic approach and if no-one actually does anything then you're not helping.
Look at this [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1383977]thread[/url], do you really think any feminist would give a fuck about eating disorders in men?[/QUOTE]
i care about men with eating disorders
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;44504943][I]literally every group in the history of mankind[/I] has undesirables. i'm a huge weeb and i acknowledge that there's creeps that want to have sex with their little sisters. i'm a huge furry and i am aware of the literal zoophiles. [I]i'm a feminist and i'm aware that there are a lot of "ugh fuck men" people.[/I] enough.[/QUOTE]
I don't see why its wrong to point out that these people have problems or are crazy.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44504969]I don't see why its wrong to point out that these people have problems or are crazy.[/QUOTE]
because that's ALL you do
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44504966]i care about men with eating disorders[/QUOTE]
The same way reblogging a picture or arguing about it here proves you care, so lets talk about people who actually do things rather than internet feminists. Do you think people who campaign for womens rights would be just as happy to do the same for men, or do you think they prioritise women and leave that kind of issue to other organisations?
You might have a theoretical grounding in gender equality and a belief that issues affecting men are just as important, but no-one does a thing about, especially not MRA groups. It's a nice sentiment but be realistic and acknowledge that feminism isn't the end-all of rights groups, it has it's priority and others work on other aspects.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;44505024]The same way reblogging a picture or arguing about it here proves you care, so lets talk about people who actually do things rather than internet feminists. Do you think people who campaign for womens rights would be just as happy to do the same for men, or do you think they prioritise women and leave that kind of issue to other organisations?
You might have a theoretical grounding in gender equality and a belief that issues affecting men are just as important, but no-one does a thing about, especially not MRA groups. It's a nice sentiment but be realistic and acknowledge that feminism isn't the end-all of rights groups, it has it's priority and others work on other aspects.[/QUOTE]
yes i do think people that campaign for women's rights would be just as happy to do the same for men, once those issues become relevant enough for them to do so. i've never considered feminism to be the end all of rights groups so i don't know where that came from
I have to wonder, why do so many internet atheists hate feminism so much?
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;44505067]I have to wonder, why do so many internet atheists hate feminism so much?[/QUOTE]
mostly just the fat hairy loser ones that develop 'nice guy' mentalities or never really developing healthy relationships with females and eventually becoming incredibly bitter and frustrated as they get older. i'm an atheist on the internet and i love feminists and i'm skinny as hell. coincidence?
[QUOTE=be;44504778]Yeah you're right, but that's pretty indirect and still doesn't mean that feminism really supports...men.[/QUOTE]
please stop
almost all feminists are directly trying to point out how the gender roles enforced by most modern societies fuck over BOTH genders. Feminism supports men and women equally and if you can't look past the title of the movement and see that then i worry for you.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44504792]it fights for gender equality. many people call themselves egalitarian because they're morons who can't handle feminism having 'fem' in it[/QUOTE]
pretty much this
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44505034]yes i do think people that campaign for women's rights would be just as happy to do the same for men, once those issues become relevant enough for them to do so. i've never considered feminism to be the end all of rights groups so i don't know where that came from[/QUOTE]
Your posts on this page where you claim egalitarianism and feminism are synonymous might be a hint. The entire point of dividing egalitarianism into different movements is because each movement places their priorities differently, and your claim that people will be interested in mens issues once they're important enough shows like most feminists that you place higher priority on womens issues. Or you think that the absurdly high assault rate among young men is negligible compared to gender disparity in a few professions.
If someone says they are an egalitarian then they support equality the same way you do, the same way most people do, the only difference is you place priority in this particular issue. If you were smart you'd realise they're a potential supporter and all you have to do is make your case, but instead I see an "us and them" mentality where people are bullied for not having the same priorities.
people saying they fight for mens rights (in things like divorce or rape accusations or smthe) as opposed to womens rights would have an argument if the laws which disadvantage men were created by women
of course, most legislation in existence just so happened to have been written, debated on and by, then passed, largely by men
[QUOTE=Devodiere;44505127]Your posts on this page where you claim egalitarianism and feminism are synonymous might be a hint. The entire point of dividing egalitarianism into different movements is because each movement places their priorities differently, and your claim that people will be interested in mens issues once they're important enough shows like most feminists that you place higher priority on womens issues, or you think that the absurdly high assault rate among young men is negligible compared to gender disparity in a few professions.
If someone says they are an egalitarian then they support equality the same way you do, the same way most people do, the only difference is you place priority in this particular issue. If you were smart you'd realise they're a potential supporter and all you have to do is make your case, but instead I see an "us and them" mentality where people are bullied for not having the same priorities.[/QUOTE]
i wasn't suggesting they're synonymous i was just suggesting what i believe to be the mindset behind many people who say 'I'M NOT A FEMINIST I'M AN EGALITARIAN'
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
you're really trying to suggest i'm the one with the 'us and them' mentality? i've got nothing against people who say they're egalitarian, i've got a problem with the idiots who shit all over feminism
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
we're in a thread about a video called 'why feminism poisons EVERYTHING' and i'm the one being accused of having an 'us and them' mentality lol
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44505152]i wasn't suggesting they're synonymous i was just suggesting what i believe to be the mindset behind many people who say 'I'M NOT A FEMINIST I'M AN EGALITARIAN'
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
you're really trying to suggest i'm the one with the 'us and them' mentality? i've got nothing against people who say they're egalitarian, i've got a problem with the idiots who shit all over feminism[/QUOTE]
The stunning insight of "They're insecure and don't want to be associated with anything feminine", certainly not dismissive and shitting over people the same way you claim they shit on feminism.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44504882]either they're morons that don't want to describe themselves with something that has the word 'fem' in it, or they're morons that don't understand what feminism is and assume because it has 'fem' in it it must just be about women[/QUOTE]
consider that in the context of the 'egalitarians' who spend all their time going after feminism/feminists
Calling it "humanism" or "equalism" or "egalitarianism" implies that the original work of feminism has been accomplished. That would be just as premature as George Bush and his "Mission Accomplished" banner on the battleship ten years ago.
Relabeling feminism as something else with the specific intent to make it more palatable to people who aren't even interested or invested in its goals seems at best counterproductive and at worst incredibly dishonest.
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=be;44504703]He's right you know, feminism doesn't concern the rights of men, it fights for the rights of women. The goal of feminism (to be equal to men) doesn't mean they advocate men's rights. This is not a new concept, many people neglect to refer to themselves as feminists because they would prefer to be more general (egalitarian is the word they use).[/QUOTE]
What was that quote again... "for every girl who's told she can't do math, there's a boy who feels he can't be an artist... for every girl treated as delicate, there's a boy who's told he shouldn't cry"...
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44505152]we're in a thread about a video called 'why feminism poisons EVERYTHING' and i'm the one being accused of having an 'us and them' mentality lol[/QUOTE]
You realise an us and them mentality is based around pushing people into extremes, and you bring up a statement from one extreme about the other as if it's relevant to what we're talking about? You aren't on one extreme and neither am I, so lets try and talk like normal people.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44505213]consider that in the context of the 'egalitarians' who spend all their time going after feminism/feminists[/QUOTE]
Yes, you're not against all people who claim to be egalitarian, only those who go after feminists. Just like he's not against all feminists, only those who go after men. You see how confusing this can get and how people who might be moderate aren't too keen on getting lumped in with the crazies?
[QUOTE=Devodiere;44505280]You realise an us and them mentality is based around pushing people into extremes, and you bring up a statement from one extreme about the other as if it's relevant to what we're talking about? You aren't on one extreme and neither am I, so lets try and talk like normal people.
Yes, you're not against all people who claim to be egalitarian, only those who go after feminists. Just like he's not against all feminists, only those who go after men. You see how confusing this can get and how people who might be moderate aren't too keen on getting lumped in with the crazies?[/QUOTE]
i do see how confusing this can get because i'm getting confused now
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44504887]The crazies. The feminists who believe that men can't be negatively affected by gender roles. The ones that physically harass people who want to address issues facing other genders, etc. Most feminists are not like this but the amount of crazies is getting larger.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Devodiere;44505280]Yes, you're not against all people who claim to be egalitarian, only those who go after feminists. Just like he's not against all feminists, only those who go after men. You see how confusing this can get and how people who might be moderate aren't too keen on getting lumped in with the crazies?[/QUOTE]
Overexposure of a very small minority is not the fault of the minority but those over exposing them. It's not the responsibility of those sensible to separate themselves from extremists, that's [I]your [/I]responsibility. You should be smart enough to figure out that stuff on your own.
i don't like thunderfoot, the amazing atheist, rangergxi or be there's my cards on the table
[QUOTE=Devodiere;44505280]Just like he's not against all feminists, only those who go after men.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/fIBOgdr.png[/IMG]
hmmmmmm
"Ingroup > Outgroup!"
"Ingroup < Outgroup"
"If you support Outgroup, you're wrong"
"If you support Ingroup, you're wrong"
"INGROUP MARGINALISES OUTGROUP"
"OUTGROUP BEHAVES BADLY, IS NO BETTER THAN INGROUP"
"Hay guise, aren't we all just Ingroup/Outgroup"
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505269]Calling it "humanism" or "equalism" or "egalitarianism" implies that the original work of feminism has been accomplished. That would be just as premature as George Bush and his "Mission Accomplished" banner on the battleship ten years ago.
Relabeling feminism as something else with the specific intent to make it more palatable to people who aren't even interested or invested in its goals seems at best counterproductive and at worst incredibly dishonest.[/QUOTE]
No-ones telling you you can't be a feminist, but understand that that means you place a higher priority on womens issues among all the aspects of egalitarianism. If someone claims to be an egalitarian, they support gender equality, they just don't put the same priority on womens issues. They're not claiming that everyone's equal already, they're not claiming that you need to relabel the movement, all it is is they have different priorities. Simple enough to understand?
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505297]Overexposure of a very small minority is not the fault of the minority but those over exposing them. It's not the responsibility of those sensible to separate themselves from extremists, that's [I]your [/I]responsibility. You should be smart enough to figure out that stuff on your own.[/QUOTE]
Shifting the burden of proof, what a lovely tactic. You do realise it's not in everyone elses interest to make feminism look good and the same laziness you show in pushing it onto other people, they will return by not bothering to care about feminism or change their views about who constitutes it.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505313][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/fIBOgdr.png[/IMG]
hmmmmmm[/QUOTE]
You realise that the entire point of those videos is beating up strawmen, and that you've missed the point about not caring about extremists. I didn't make those videos, just as I'm sure you've tried to minimise the #killallwhitemen tags, so how about we stay relevant.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505297]Overexposure of a very small minority is not the fault of the minority but those over exposing them.[/QUOTE]
So like Reddit MRAs and random people who send death/rape threats for giggles. Not alot of people really try to justify this.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505269]Calling it "humanism" or "equalism" or "egalitarianism" implies that the original work of feminism has been accomplished.[/QUOTE]
Feminism implies a focus on the female gender and thats what feminism focuses on. Not so sure about "egalitarianism" but an MRA complaining about feminisms name is a bit ironic.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44505338]So like Reddit MRAs and weird anarchists.[/QUOTE]
MRAs are (sadly) not a small minority and the very basis of their "movement" is not valid. Even if the ideology made any sense to begin with, the Men's Rights subreddit (90k members...) is mostly devoted to feminism — or to be more precise, bashing it. MRAs are all too busy nailing themselves to a cross to actually do what they pretend to be preaching.
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44505338]Feminism implies a focus on the female gender and thats what feminism focuses on. Not so sure about "egalitarianism" but an MRA complaining about feminisms name is a bit ironic.[/QUOTE]
A few posts above yours:
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44504882]either they're morons that don't want to describe themselves with something that has the word 'fem' in it, or they're morons that don't understand what feminism is and assume because it has 'fem' in it it must just be about women[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Brt5470;44501234]Can we make thunderfoot bannable?[/QUOTE]
Why exactly? He speaks the truth: These feminists and social justice warriors are hypocrites. He's showing them for who they really are and I think this is a good thing because people need to be criticized. These threads are also good for discussing the topic at hand and finding any general flaws in his arguments.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;44504836]It... does? Just because the word "feminism" is based off of the word "feminine" doesn't mean that it also strives for men's rights too. What do you think "gender equality" even means? Can't possible mean making MEN and WOMEN equal in every way, could it?[/QUOTE]
Yeah but equality can be about taking things away too, a persecuted minority is extremely likely to strive to fuck over their oppressors even though that is wrong.
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
I'll have you know that men's rights and feminism are related but intrinsically not the same thing. It turns out the definitions of words come, most of the time, from their latin roots. Obviously feminism is about female rights, that's what the word was made to refer to, you can't really argue that. People wanting to be egalitarians are still feminists, and they know it too, but they would simply rather call themselves something neutral, is that so wrong?
[QUOTE=be;44505509]Yeah but equality can be about taking things away too, a persecuted minority is extremely likely to[B] strive to fuck over their oppressors even though that is wrong.[/B][/QUOTE]
how can you really argue this stance? an minority winning over an oppressive majority is something that should be viewed as good. do you want them to stay numb if it's wrong, or is it important, even though it's ' wrong ' ?
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505313][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/fIBOgdr.png[/IMG]
hmmmmmm[/QUOTE]
yeah so? i don't see how it matters that he calls them feminists, they ARE feminists. Notice how he puts the quote marks around the word feminism, clearly showing that his issues are with these tumblr-tier feminists, not feminism in general. He knows they don't represent feminism, this is clear.
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