[QUOTE=be;44505509]Yeah but equality can be about taking things away too, a persecuted minority is extremely likely to strive to fuck over their oppressors even though that is wrong.[/QUOTE]
No.
Time and time again, history has shown that there has been an irrational fear from the privileged group that [B]fixing an unjust statu quo will somehow invert it[/B].
Prime example with the suffragettes:
[t]http://i.imgur.com/1bUKoC0.png[/t] [t]http://www.my-english-courses.com/mock2/anti_clip_image002_0001.jpg[/t] [t]http://i.imgur.com/RMpElQg.png[/t]
"If women get the right to vote, then men will be the ones staying at home and take care of the kids!" "If women get the right to vote they will be emasculate their husbands and society will be upside-down!", etc.
Reactions from the majority have been similar throughout history. e.g. anti-segregation protests in the 60s.
So please, give me a concrete example of a persecuted minority that has ever "fucked over their oppressors"...
Equality is not about taking things away, it's about giving opportunities and fixing unjust statu quos for those who need it. You might have seen this comic before:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/iXRSDkA.png[/img]
[QUOTE=Ownederd;44505529]how can you really argue this stance? an minority winning over an oppressive majority is something that should be viewed as good. do you want them to stay numb if it's wrong, or is it important, even though it's ' wrong ' ?[/QUOTE]
No, a minority taking away people's ability to have a place in discussion isn't something I'd consider to be good, the line between oppressing and equating is pretty thin I'd say... I understand your point though, but these tumblr feminists (we are discussing them, right?) are calling for some insane changes (suey park, for example at least). I can't speak for how common tumblr-tier feminists are, but like I've already addressed, I know these people don't represent feminism as a whole. They represent the funny feminists that are fun to laugh at (which is what we all love to do).
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505556]No.
Time and time again, history has shown that there has been an irrational fear from the privileged group that [B]fixing an unjust statu quo will somehow invert it[/B].
Prime example with the suffragettes
"If women get the right to vote, then men will be the ones staying at home and take care of the kids!"
"If women get the right to vote they will be emasculate their husbands and society will be upside-down!"
Reactions from the majority have been similar throughout history. This was similar during anti-segregation protests in the 60s.
So please, give me a concrete example of a persecuted minority that has ever "fucked over their oppressors"...[/QUOTE]
Frustration plays a big role in this, a frustrated persecuted minority is likely to lash out in a lot of ways, and if you give them an inch they'll take a mile.
[QUOTE=be;44505558]No, a minority taking away people's ability to have a place in discussion isn't something I'd consider to be good, the line between oppressing and equating is pretty thin I'd say... I understand your point though, but these tumblr feminists (we are discussing them, right?) are calling for some insane changes (suey park, for example at least). I can't speak for how common tumblr-tier feminists are, but like I've already addressed, I know these people don't represent feminism as a whole. They represent the funny feminists that are fun to laugh at (which is what we all love to do).[/QUOTE]
you keep saying that 'tumblr feminists' is one universal thing from one specific website. there are feminists on tumblr, yes, but ideologies are divided, just like anywhere else. ofc the most mainstream feminism you'll see there is material that positively supports awareness that serious issues that are still lumbering around to this day .
[QUOTE=Ownederd;44505574]you keep saying that 'tumblr feminists' is one universal thing from one specific website. there are feminists on tumblr, yes, but ideologies are divided, just like anywhere else. ofc the most mainstream feminism you'll see there is material that positively supports awareness that serious issues that are still lumbering around to this day .[/QUOTE]
I'm using the term 'tumblr feminists' as a pejorative, it's not really specific enough but I think it works out. I wish to see a study of the feminists on tumblr that would somehow group them by their opinions/'extremism'(a poll, maybe).
[QUOTE=be;44505558]Frustration plays a big role in this, a frustrated persecuted minority is likely to lash out in a lot of ways, [B]and if you give them an inch they'll take a mile[/B].[/QUOTE]
Holy shit lol you can't be serious
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
Look at all the social progress made in the past hundred years for oppressed classes and groups of people, and give me a single example of "if you give them an inch they'll take a mile", please
You're regurgitating the same old tired rhetoric that has been used by anti-progressists and bigots since the dawn of time, that's actually kind of disgusting
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
LOOK AT THE IMAGES I POSTED ABOVE OF THE SUFFRAGETTES. The people who were against women's rights to vote were saying exactly what you said, "if you give women an inch they will take a mile" — "give them the right to vote and they will throw society upside down and emasculate them and society will be fucked up".
This is the same logic you're vomiting back at us right now.
Seriously dude you're kind of fucked up.
[QUOTE=be;44505558]Frustration plays a big role in this, a frustrated persecuted minority is likely to lash out in a lot of ways, and if you give them an inch they'll take a mile.[/QUOTE]
Holy shit, this is one of the most infuriating things I've ever had the displeasure of reading.
[QUOTE=Paige;44505078]
almost all feminists are directly trying to point out how the gender roles enforced by most modern societies fuck over BOTH genders. Feminism supports men and women equally and if you can't look past the title of the movement and see that then i worry for you.
[/QUOTE]
Here lies the problem.
Feminism does indeed strive to "dismantle patriatchy", and that would indeed benefit both genders. But see, that's quite a long way, and in the short term issues men face are overlooked entirely. Shut up about your problems and wait for us to dismantle the system that hurts us both. With women feminism goes after each problem that tends to hurt women one way or the other individually, but when it's issue only men face - "we'll get there". It's completely understandable and nothing to be ashamed of really.
So, it [b]is[/b] about women's problems entirely. Just in the (very long) process it's theorized to "help both genders". Absolutely no surprise any movement that sets its short-term goals to help men out in those areas where they face problems is full of bitter people who prefer to go after feminism instead. In perfect scenario it would be one movement, or two working towards the same goal by pursuing different issues, but in our world it seems that everyone thinks only one can exist. MRA's view feminism as a movement for some kind of "women domination" and radfems see men's movements as a threat and "reinstallation of patriarchy" which is to be silenced by any means necessary, both deny each other's premises.
I intentionally contrapose men's rights movements in their entirety against just radical wing of feminism here: men's movements are in their infancy, they all consist of radical elements, as it tends to be with forming movements, while feminism is old, respected movement, its radical wing, no matter how few of them there are compared to the rest, is a force to be reckoned with on its own.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505585]
LOOK AT THE IMAGES I POSTED ABOVE OF THE SUFFRAGETTES. The people who were against women's rights to vote were saying exactly what you said, "if you give women an inch they will take a mile" — "give them the right to vote and they will throw society upside down and emasculate them and society will be fucked up".
This is the same logic you're vomiting back at us right now.
Seriously dude you're kind of fucked up.[/QUOTE]
It's the slippery slope fallacy no doubt, but I cannot help but see some truth to his statement. Women have achieved much no doubt such as the right to vote, education, more career opportunities than ever before, but I believe that this has lead to its own fair share of problems as well especially when it comes to modern western society. This is not to say that these issues are women's fault however, as there are many variables.
[QUOTE=Levithan;44505619]Holy shit, this is one of the most infuriating things I've ever had the displeasure of reading.[/QUOTE]
Get over it, not everyone is going to share your viewpoints.
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505585]
Seriously dude you're kind of fucked up.[/QUOTE]
Haha oh man, that's what I get for disagreeing with your viewpoints! Don't say that isn't what's happening because that's definitely what's happening.
[QUOTE=be;44505672]Haha oh man, that's what I get for disagreeing with your viewpoints! Don't say that isn't what's happening because that's definitely what's happening.[/QUOTE]
Dude, "if you give them an inch they will take a mile" isn't even a viewpoint it's straight up being stuck in the past century
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
Honestly that says a lot about you
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505691]Dude, "if you give them an inch they will take a mile" isn't even a viewpoint it's straight up being stuck in the past century
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
Honestly that says a lot about you[/QUOTE]
Okay? I think that frustrated and down trodden minorities are willing to take as much as they can to the point that it can be unfair. I don't think that's too ridiculous or outlandish.
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
The fact that you judge me so harshly based on what I believe (especially since I don't even disagree with you on general equality) says much more about you than me. At least it would if you weren't supporting the majority opinion of this thread/forum.
[QUOTE=be;44505697]Okay? I think that frustrated and down trodden minorities are willing to take as much as they can to the point that it can be unfair. I don't think that's too ridiculous or outlandish.[/QUOTE]
I just explained twice how it is precisely a ridiculous, outlandish, irrational "viewpoint" that has been proven wrong countless times in the history of social progress.
Of course, you're free to give me examples of minorities that were given an inch, and which subsequently took a mile...
[QUOTE=be;44505697]Okay? I think that frustrated and down trodden minorities are willing to take as much as they can to the point that it can be unfair. I don't think that's too ridiculous or outlandish.
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
The fact that you judge me so harshly based on what I believe (especially since I don't even disagree with you on general equality) says much more about you than me.[/QUOTE]
most people don't live in a world of sheer anarchy. when good change happens that lifts up everyone in the process, people set reasonable boundaries.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505711]I just explained twice how it is precisely a ridiculous, outlandish, irrational "viewpoint" that has been proven wrong countless times in the history of social progress.
Of course, you're free to give me examples of minorities that were given an inch, and which subsequently took a mile...[/QUOTE]
You're right, I don't know where I claimed that there was a point in history that this happened and if I did I'm sorry. I'm speaking about what an individual believes, what we are discussing here (frustrated minority taking out frustration on its oppressor) is (at least to me) obviously a real thing in terms of individual psychology. People DO take out their frustration on people in general, especially those who they see as who does them wrong, conspiracy theorists are a good example of such people. As a movement there aren't many examples of such a thing because it wouldn't be allowed to happen, but with free speech all these viewpoints are allowed to flourish.
[QUOTE=be;44505558]if you give them an inch they'll take a mile.[/QUOTE]
We allowed black people to attend universities, did they begin to occupy them?
[QUOTE=Ownederd;44505714]most people don't live in a world of sheer anarchy. when good change happens that lifts up everyone in the process, people set reasonable boundaries.[/QUOTE]
Yeah people do, most people, but there are extremists and that's what we're discussing yes?
[QUOTE=be;44505723]You're right, I don't know where I claimed that there was a point in history that this happened and if I did I'm sorry. I'm speaking about what an individual believes, what we are discussing here (frustrated minority taking out frustration on its oppressor) is (at least to me) obviously a real thing in terms of individual psychology. People DO take out their frustration on people in general, especially those who they see as who does them wrong, conspiracy theorists are a good example of such people. As a movement there aren't many examples of such a thing because it wouldn't be allowed to happen, but with free speech all these viewpoints are allowed to flourish.[/QUOTE]
I completely understand that people generally have a bad reaction when they see tumblrs with posts that have glittery "kill all men" image macros but for the most part it's only venting on their behalf — which, as distasteful and weird as it is, is ultimately harmless. Out of dozens, I've only ever seen two or three genuinely crazy people who actually held that viewpoint seriously... one of which was actually a false flag. :v:
[QUOTE=be;44505697]Okay? I think that frustrated and down trodden minorities are willing to take as much as they can to the point that it can be unfair. I don't think that's too ridiculous or outlandish.
[/QUOTE]
When the tables are turned the oppressed minority can easily become the brutal oppressors. Its just that I don't really see what this has to do with Womens suffrage or feminism. I really doubt the ultra-radicals will ever manage to organize an effective coup or something.
The problem with modern feminism is focus on women instead of gender equality. The idea of changing the name of feminism doesn't come from the idea of equal treatment being achieved but from the idea of broadening the movement to better achieve equality.
[QUOTE=Limed00d;44505726]We allowed black people to attend universities, did they begin occupying them?[/QUOTE]
If you give a poor person (for example) a platform to justify their own failures (conspiracy theories) they will get pretty ridiculous.
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44505736]When the tables are turned the oppressed minority can easily become the brutal oppressors. Its just that I don't really see what this has to do with Womens suffrage or feminism. I really doubt the ultra-radicals will ever manage to organize an effective coup or something.
The problem with modern feminism is focus on women instead of gender equality. The idea of changing the name of feminism doesn't come from the idea of equal treatment being achieved but from the idea of broadening the movement to better achieve equality.[/QUOTE]
personally i don't know what we're even arguing about but that's just me
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44505736]When the tables are turned the oppressed minority can easily become the brutal oppressors.[/QUOTE]
This isn't Bioshock Infinite
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505731]I completely understand that people generally have a bad reaction when they see tumblrs with posts that have glittery "kill all men" image macros but for the most part it's only venting on their behalf — which, as distasteful and weird as it is, is ultimately harmless. Out of dozens, I've only ever seen two or three genuinely crazy people who actually held that viewpoint seriously... one of which was actually a false flag. :v:[/QUOTE]
I don't doubt you, but I would really love to see some sort of poll done to evaluate the opinions of tumblr, it'd be nice.
[QUOTE=be;44505739]If you give a poor person (for example) a platform to justify their own failures (conspiracy theories) they will get pretty ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
There are plenty of justifications for poor people staying poor with regards to issues out of their control, e.g. how social mobility is extremely hard if you're at the bottom of the ladder, the issue of wealth redistribution, etc.
Those are certainly not conspiracy theories and backed up by concrete facts
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505746]This isn't Bioshock Infinite[/QUOTE]
Being blinded by anger isn't too uncommon, Suey Park for example is so blinded by the feelings of persecution (or wanting to make money by giving speeches) that she loses sight of her original goal of equality and begins to be seriously racist against white people.
[editline]10th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44505758]There are plenty of justifications for poor people staying poor with regards to issues out of their control, e.g. how social mobility is extremely hard if you're at the bottom of the ladder, the issue of wealth redistribution, etc.
Those are certainly not conspiracy theories and backed up by concrete facts[/QUOTE]
Well I was just focusing on conspiracy theories as my only example here, I agree that ending poverty is extremely difficult. Though in some cases you will find a poor person who is bitter, depressed, or something, who takes these real concepts and just takes them too far. We have a similar thing happening in this case, Suey Park is justified in outrage against...well I guess society in general, but she takes it way too far and becomes a monster of sorts. Though instead of frustration and bitterness guiding her I bet it's so she can further her career (a serious motivator)
[QUOTE=be;44505750]I don't doubt you, but I would really love to see some sort of poll done to evaluate the opinions of tumblr, it'd be nice.[/QUOTE]
i will never understand this obsession people seem to have with tumblr
[QUOTE=Ownederd;44504849]honest question: what's your opinion of the MRA movement. do you support it because it 'addresses the other side' ?[/QUOTE]
I support any viewpoint, but I wouldn't call myself an MRA specifically. Of course, I suppose men's rights because...well, how couldn't I? In the same vain, I support female rights but I don't want to refer to myself as an MRA. I really do think that often times the middle ground between perspectives is the best choice, so I call myself an egalitarian. I'm also a feminist and an MRA, but it's easier and just plain more correct, really, to say egalitarian. At least that's what I think.
hmmm... blinded by feelings of persecution.... *LOOKS AT ALL THE MALES IN THIS THREAD*
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44505798]i will never understand this obsession people seem to have with tumblr[/QUOTE]
Some people say that tumblr users are insane while others claim they are just like any other userbase. I just wish to see which claim is correct, plus it would be cool information to analyze itself, it gives us a greater knowledge of the world around us y'know.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44505798]i will never understand this obsession people seem to have with tumblr[/QUOTE]
It's one of those places that minority folk feel safe to vent and share their experiences, and when the ignorant stumble across them they take'm seriously instead of asking themselves if there's an underlying reason that these folk are often royally pissed off at their oppressors.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44505801]hmmm... blinded by feelings of persecution.... *LOOKS AT ALL THE MALES IN THIS THREAD*[/QUOTE]
Everyone does it, it's normal human behavior. It's the same as how people will subconsciously only accept opinions based on their popularity in certain social groups (often times, the one they're currently with). Humans are very irrational, we're still animals afterall.
[QUOTE=dai;44503640]
I'm not sure there's a proper term one could rename feminism with, which accurately explains who's side the whole thing is actually on. [/QUOTE]
Egalitarianism.
That's why I say I'm an egalitarianist not a feminist.
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