Feminism and the Disposable Man - General

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZueOCLGt1tw[/media] :v: Also that video is pretty old, so is this one, but they're both relevant I suppose.

The feminists on here can claim all they want about the radfems, the fact is that you are failing to make a good impression on the general public. You allow the radical fringe groups to steal the spotlight on every occasion. It's not the patriarchy you need to fight any more, it's the radical elements of yourselves. Then we'll talk.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;41744268]I agree but outside of inventing my own terms what am i supposed to do? I made it clear that I wasn't being critical of all feminists just the pro-censorship conservative kind.[/QUOTE] You basically said that modern feminism has lost its way and that their main agenda is censorship and to advocate an anti-male profile. I know you can do better, man! And I'm just curious, which political actions on Iceland do you deem as sexist? [editline]7th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=ScratchNsniff;41744322]The feminists on here can claim all they want about the radfems, the fact is that you are failing to make a good impression on the general public. You allow the radical fringe groups to steal the spotlight on every occasion. It's not the patriarchy you need to fight any more, it's the radical elements of yourselves. Then we'll talk.[/QUOTE] Haha dude you're talking as if all feminists in the world are organized in one big faction. It's not as if all people who consider themselves feminist have weekly global meetings. If that were the case, I'd be the first to shut down anti-male radicals.

[QUOTE=NOR_92;41744325]You basically said that modern feminism has lost its way and that their main agenda is censorship and to advocate an anti-male profile. I know you can do better, man! And I'm just curious, which political actions on Iceland do you deem as sexist?[/QUOTE] Banning strip clubs and pornography because they were supposedly sexist, this obvious also included all male porn and strip clubs. By modern feminism I meant modern politically active feminists who are actively and successfully lobbying governments. Dissident feminists exist but they aren't politically relevant.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41743991]Every time someone goes "but men have gender roles too and they are expected to do this things and if they don't they are looked down upon" you people (maybe not you personally) go with "baww white males are being discriminated lol", "persecution complex much?", "yeah like white men have it bad lol", "it's not discrimination because on average white males have it better", along with a long explanation how those gender roles are also a product of patriarchy like the person saying that has no understanding of it. Feminism is often associated with being anti-male, and many feminists indeed are, even if they are just a vocal minority. Weak as in not as strong physically? Aren't men physically stronger on average?[/QUOTE] every problem males have concerning gender roles and the discrimination it brings is due to the male patriarchy, feminism is about getting rid of the male patriarchy, you even acknowledge that in your post so what are you on about? and 'vocal minority' and 'many feminists' doesn't make sense. and if you acknowledge it's just a vocal minority why do you bring it up?

[QUOTE=NOR_92;41744325]Haha dude you're talking as if all feminists in the world are organized in one big faction. It's not as if all people who consider themselves feminist have weekly global meetings. If that were the case, I'd be the first to shut down anti-male radicals.[/QUOTE] I don't see how it matters that you're not organized in some big faction? Fact is the less radical feminists ought to get out there and actually voice their opinion. It doesn't really matter that the vast majority of feminists are not radical, when it's only the radical ones who are actually doing anything.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;41744394]every problem males have concerning gender roles and the discrimination it brings is due to the male patriarchy, feminism is about getting rid of the male patriarchy, you even acknowledge that in your post so what are you on about? and 'vocal minority' and 'many feminists' doesn't make sense. and if you acknowledge it's just a vocal minority why do you bring it up?[/QUOTE] How many times does it need to be said? It doesn't matter if they're a minority or not, they're are the ones who are actually having an effect and getting laws changed.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;41744448]How many times does it need to be said? It doesn't matter if they're a minority or not, they're are the ones who are actually having an effect and getting laws changed.[/QUOTE] how exactly does a minority group without support have effects and change laws?

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;41744474]how exactly does a minority group without support have effects and change laws?[/QUOTE] by actually being vocal

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;41744474]how exactly does a minority group without support have effects and change laws?[/QUOTE] I already said in previous posts; The Icelandic porn and strip club ban and the current anti porn laws being passed in Britain. A vocal minority is effectively a majority if no one challenges them.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;41744394][QUOTE=Silly Sil;41743991]along with a long explanation how those gender roles are also a product of patriarchy like the person saying that has no understanding of it.[/QUOTE] every problem males have concerning gender roles and the discrimination it brings is due to the male patriarchy, [/QUOTE] You just did exactly what I said you people do. Yes I know. So what? What is your point? Why are you saying this? [QUOTE=Lachz0r;41744394]feminism is about getting rid of the male patriarchy, you even acknowledge that in your post so what are you on about? [/QUOTE] I'm on about you people being hypocritical. You are all "we want equality" on your high horses but the moment someone brings up male gender roles, he's showered with dumbs and told he's a fedora wearing MRA neckbeard. And then you complain how you hate the us vs them attitude. [QUOTE=Lachz0r;41744394]and 'vocal minority' and 'many feminists' doesn't make sense. and if you acknowledge it's just a vocal minority why do you bring it up?[/QUOTE] "many" isn't equal to "most" IIRC, and [QUOTE=Silly Sil;41744178]Feminism is being associated with being anti-male because of the way it's portrayed in the media, creating us vs them scenario. And what they do is they show only these anti-male feminists, instead of showing those feminists that want equality and who can see that gender roles are problem for both, men and women. I think it's pretty relevant to the point about having the us vs them situation. [/QUOTE] [editline]7th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=NOR_92;41744229]Hey man I agree with a lot of this, but I'm having a huge problem with generalizing that extreme movement with using words as broad as "modern feminism". It isn't constructive at all, and causes confusion and bandwagons. Polarizing, you know? Either you're a mysoginist or you're an over zealous "social justice warrior". Maybe one would think that discussing terms like that to be splitting hairs, but it's very important to be clear and respect ideological nuances when discussing these topics.[/QUOTE] Talk about polarizing. The moment you criticize a woman or feminism you are a woman-hating fedora-wearing neckbeard virgin, men's rights activist who has no social skills and probably is a rapist according to some of the most vocal feminists here on this board.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;41744519]I already said in previous posts; The Icelandic porn and strip club ban and the current anti porn laws being passed in Britain. A vocal minority is effectively a majority if no one challenges them.[/QUOTE] Exactly, and that's it then? Closing down male and female strip clubs is hardly a tragedy. It's more of a societal clean-up. Really, what good does a sleazy strip club do for its community? But then again, this begs the question of whether or not it's the structures within modern society that forces people into such shitty jobs or that they seek them out on an entirely internal incentive. And that's a whole other discussion all-toghether. [editline]7th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Silly Sil;41744563]You just did exactly what I said you people do. Yes I know. So what? What is your point? Why are you saying this? I'm on about you people being hypocritical. You are all "we want equality" on your high horses but the moment someone brings up male gender roles, he's showered with dumbs and told he's a fedora wearing MRA neckbeard. And then you complain how you hate the us vs them attitude. "many" isn't equal to "most" IIRC, and [editline]7th August 2013[/editline] Talk about polarizing. The moment you criticize a woman or feminism you are a woman-hating fedora-wearing neckbeard virgin, men's rights activist who has no social skills and probably is a rapist according to some of the most vocal feminists here on this board.[/QUOTE] Hey man that's not the case, I absolutely believe there are male issues as well. But I characterize them all under the umbrella term of 'gender issues' because this isn't a battle between men and women. I'm sorry if I was harsh earlier, I just wanted to be clear.

-snip- automerge lag

[QUOTE=NOR_92;41744623]Exactly, and that's it then? Closing down male and female strip clubs is hardly a tragedy. It's more of a societal clean-up. Really, what good does a sleazy strip club do for its community? But then again, this begs the question of whether or not it's the structures within modern society that forces people into such shitty jobs or that they seek them out on an entirely internal incentive. And that's a whole other discussion all-toghether.[/QUOTE] Everything you said is irrelevant to his point. His point was that the supposedly unimportant, vocal minority is changing laws. [QUOTE=NOR_92;41744623]Hey man that's not the case, I absolutely believe there are male issues as well. But I characterize them all under the umbrella term of 'gender issues' because this isn't a battle between men and women. I'm sorry if I was harsh earlier, I just wanted to be clear.[/QUOTE] Exactly it's not, or at least shouldn't be a battle between men and women but some people, on both sides, treat it that way. I think it would work much better if we would stand against gender roles and discrimination associated with them instead of fighting the evil male patriarchy made and maintained by evil white males.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41744636]Everything you said is irrelevant to his point. His point was that the supposedly unimportant, vocal minority is changing laws.[/QUOTE] It is relevant. I'm saying that being opposed to strip clubs isn't an extreme, radical and anti-male position to be in. If you'd read closer you'd see that in my opinion banning sleazy businesses is a step towards a more civilized society. And it affecting male strip clubs too speaks in favour of all people, if you deem them feminist or MRA. It doesn't matter because laws like that attack institutions that are degrading and serve as shitty work for desperate people. [editline]7th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE]Exactly it's not, or at least shouldn't be a battle between men and women but some people, on both sides, treat it that way. I think it would work much better if we would stand against gender roles and discrimination associated with them instead of fighting the evil male patriarchy made and maintained by evil white males.[/QUOTE] Huzzah, we've reached an agreement! It is a glorious day for FP.

[QUOTE=NOR_92;41744675]It is relevant. I'm saying that being opposed to strip club isn't an extreme, radical and anti-male position to be in. If you'd read closer you'd see that in my opinion banning sleazy businesses is a step towards a more civilized society. And it affecting male strip clubs too speaks in favour of all people, if you deem them feminist or MRA. It doesn't matter because laws like that attack institutions that are degrading and serve as shitty work for desperate people.[/QUOTE] It's not a question whether banning strip clubs is extreme (the group was extreme before) nor if it's the right thing to do, it's the fact that the supposedly unimportant, vocal minority is changing laws and has power. His point is that the voice of vocal minority seems louder than those who aren't extreme.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41744720]It's not a question whether banning strip clubs is extreme (the group was extreme before) nor if it's the right thing to do, it's the fact that the supposedly unimportant, vocal minority is changing laws and has power. His point is that the voice of vocal minority seems louder than those who aren't extreme.[/QUOTE] Yeah I understand that, so I'm saying that I don't regard people being against shitty workplaces like stripclubs to be "extreme". A lot of feminists would be against male and female strip clubs. I thought you were talking about more extreme actions earlier - banning strip joints is not the opinion of the few radicals. It's a pretty "mainstream" feminist opinion. But I'm dragging this on. We've reached some valuable common ground, and ultimately that's the important part!

[QUOTE=ScratchNsniff;41744322]The feminists on here can claim all they want about the radfems, the fact is that you are failing to make a good impression on the general public. You allow the radical fringe groups to steal the spotlight on every occasion.[/QUOTE] Because, like Silly Sil said, those are the ones the media portrays, because those in control of the media (read: rich white men), have a vested interest in making feminism look bad because it's counter to their interests. What's more, once people have built up a negative perception of feminists, they'll only really notice people that reinforce that perception, and the people saying reasonable things will either be ignored or misinterpreted. Take Sarkeesian - she hasn't said anything particularly controversial or unpleasant, and yet people think she's the devil incarnate, because she's a feminist, and so they see her through the "crazy, evil, man-hating, censorship-loving feminazi" lens. Of course, people always focus on things that support their perceptions and feel hostile to people that they have a negative perception of - that's human nature. But it's silly to act as if the reasonable feminists at fault for feminism looking bad. [QUOTE=Aidan_088;41744519]I already said in previous posts; The Icelandic porn and strip club ban and the current anti porn laws being passed in Britain. A vocal minority is effectively a majority if no one challenges them.[/QUOTE] That's because they're supporting what the government already wants to do (e.g. controlling the internet). It's got little to do with them being feminists - if it were, we'd see a lot more radical stuff happening than porn legislation.

[QUOTE=NOR_92;41744723]Yeah I understand that, so I'm saying that I don't regard people being against shitty workplaces like stripclubs to be "extreme". A lot of feminists would be against male and female strip clubs. I thought you were talking about more extreme actions earlier - banning strip joints is not the opinion of the few radicals. It's a pretty "mainstream" feminist opinion. But I'm dragging this on. We've reached some valuable common ground, and ultimately that's the important part![/QUOTE] I'm not saying strip clubs are great or that I think they're a fun place to work and I think they should be regulated to ensure no one is harmed but banning them is extreme. It is not the governments place to decide what consensual sexual activities are and are not okay.

[QUOTE=NOR_92;41744623]Exactly, and that's it then? Closing down male and female strip clubs is hardly a tragedy. It's more of a societal clean-up. Really, what good does a sleazy strip club do for its community? But then again, this begs the question of whether or not it's the structures within modern society that forces people into such shitty jobs or that they seek them out on an entirely internal incentive. And that's a whole other discussion all-toghether. [/QUOTE] Mind explaining why do you call strippers a "shitty job" people being "forced" into?

[QUOTE=Tweevle;41744797]Because, like Silly Sil said, those are the ones the media portrays, because those in control of the media (read: rich white men), have a vested interest in making feminism look bad because it's counter to their interests. What's more, once people have built up a negative perception of feminists, they'll only really notice people that reinforce that perception, and the people saying reasonable things will either be ignored or misinterpreted. Take Sarkeesian - she hasn't said anything particularly controversial or unpleasant, and yet people think she's the devil incarnate, because she's a feminist, and so they see her through the "crazy, evil, man-hating, censorship-loving feminazi" lens. Of course, people always focus on things that support their perceptions and feel hostile to people that they have a negative perception of - that's human nature. But it's silly to act as if the reasonable feminists at fault for feminism looking bad. That's because they're supporting what the government already wants to do (e.g. controlling the internet). It's got little to do with them being feminists - if it were, we'd see a lot more radical stuff happening than porn legislation.[/QUOTE] If you think the media is exclusively controlled by rich white men I suggest you read the guardian and see all of the feminist bloggers who now write regularly for it form a feminist perspective. But the daily mail and other more traditionally right wing media are now also portraying feminism positively because they share common aims of censorship and banning pornography, it probably won't last but at the moment the extreme right is working in tandem with some feminists to fight against freedom of speech and expression.

[QUOTE=gudman;41744817]Mind explaining why do you call strippers a "shitty job" people being "forced" into?[/QUOTE] Poor people with few options may see it as one of the only ways of earning money. Who willingly wants to be a stripper if they have other opportunities? And the business aspect of it begs the question of human trafficking and fronts for prostitution. The world is more complex than the conservative "oh prostitutes sell themselves because that's what they want to do. If they want to move on up they can just get another job." mindset. Society should move on from degrading, shitty businesses like these.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41744563]I'm on about you people being hypocritical. You are all "we want equality" on your high horses but the moment someone brings up male gender roles, he's showered with dumbs and told he's a fedora wearing MRA neckbeard. And then you complain how you hate the us vs them attitude.[/QUOTE] I think that probably happens because when someone male gender roles they're usually doing it to derail a conversation about female gender roles, and often to say "hey, men are affected by gender roles too and you don't see us complaining, so shut up!". There's nothing wrong with talking about male gender roles, as they're a problem in and of themselves, but there is something wrong with every discussion about women's issues having people insisting one talks about men's issues instead, because all that ends up with is men's issues being talked about all the time and women's issues being talked about never ... which is just what it's been like for a long time and is what feminism is trying to change.

[QUOTE=Tweevle;41744862]I think that probably happens because when someone male gender roles they're usually doing it to derail a conversation about female gender roles, and often to say "hey, men are affected by gender roles too and you don't see us complaining, so shut up!". There's nothing wrong with talking about male gender roles, as they're a problem in and of themselves, but there is something wrong with every discussion about women's issues having people insisting one talks about men's issues instead, because all that ends up with is men's issues being talked about all the time and women's issues being talked about never ... which is just what it's been like for a long time and is what feminism is trying to change.[/QUOTE] They shouldn't be mutually exclusive though. Men's issues are women's issues and vice versa - it's all connected. The majority of people don't win from a male dominated hierarchy or the other way around.

[QUOTE=NOR_92;41744854]Poor people with few options may see it as one of the only ways of earning money. Who willingly wants to be a stripper if they have other opportunities? And the business aspect of it begs the question of human trafficking and fronts for prostitution. The world is more complex than the conservative "oh prostitutes sell themselves because that's what they want to do. If they want to move on up they can just get another job." mindset. Society should move on from degrading, shitty businesses like these.[/QUOTE] Isn't that all true of working at McDonalds and other low paying jobs? If it's properly regulated there are no serious risks. Banning strip clubs because they might be fronts for prostitution is like banning bakeries because they might be fronts for drug dealers. Furthermore prostitution, if properly, regulated is harmless anyway.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;41744882]Isn't that all true of working at McDonalds and other low paying jobs? If it's properly regulated there are no serious risks. Banning strip clubs because they might be fronts for prostitution is like banning bakeries because they might be fronts for drug dealers. Furthermore prostitution, if properly, regulated is harmless anyway.[/QUOTE] The bakery parallel isn't too valid, I'm afraid. Strip clubs sell sexual services, as does prostitution. There's a close link, right?

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;41744840]If you think the media is exclusively controlled by rich white men I suggest you read the guardian and see all of the feminist bloggers who now write regularly for it form a feminist perspective.[/QUOTE] The Guardian is currently run by this person: [IMG]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/6/27/1246120095270/Alan-Rusbridger-001.jpg[/IMG] White, male, and though I haven't seen his finances, he's privately educated and runs a national newspaper so it's safe to assume he's rich, too. [QUOTE=Aidan_088;41744840]But the daily mail and other more traditionally right wing media are now also portraying feminism positively because they share common aims of censorship and banning pornography, it probably won't last but at the moment the extreme right is working in tandem with some feminists to fight against freedom of speech and expression. [/QUOTE] Exactly, and that's the only reason they're having success. It's not because they're feminists or are making their case more effectively or voicing their concerns more, it's because this issue is already one that serves those in power.

[QUOTE=NOR_92;41744896]The bakery parallel isn't too valid, I'm afraid. Strip clubs sell sexual services, as does prostitution. There's a close link, right?[/QUOTE] You're missing the point; if properly regulated and transparent a strip club would have just as much chance of being front for criminality as any other business. [editline]7th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Tweevle;41744919]The Guardian is currently run by this person: [IMG]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/6/27/1246120095270/Alan-Rusbridger-001.jpg[/IMG] White, male, and though I haven't seen his finances, he's privately educated and runs a national newspaper so it's safe to assume he's rich, too. Exactly, and that's the only reason they're having success. It's not because they're feminists or are making their case more effectively or voicing their concerns more, it's because this issue is already one that serves those in power.[/QUOTE] I said that lots of feminists write for the paper not that it was run by a feminist. I agree some feminists have been fooled by conservatives and are now lending their presumed legitimacy to pro-censorship policies. The fact that some feminists have effectively been tricked is disheartening but not the point, the point is that they're the ones who make these laws legitimate and close down much of the serious opposition, especially on the left, by accusing opponents of misogyny.

[QUOTE=NOR_92;41744880]They shouldn't be mutually exclusive though. Men's issues are women's issues and vice versa - it's all connected. The majority of people don't win from a male dominated hierarchy or the other way around.[/QUOTE] Of course. But sometimes issues that affect women need to be discussed specifically, because they affect them in different ways and to a different degree. Men are talked about all the time and no one has a problem, but whenever someone tries to talk about women, in most cases you'll have people saying "what about the men?", and trying to bring the conversation back around to men again. This is one of the things feminism was designed to prevent, so women could actually have a voice about [I]their[/I] concerns, and not have the conversation dominated by men 100% of the time.

[QUOTE=NOR_92;41744854]Poor people with few options may see it as one of the only ways of earning money. Who willingly wants to be a stripper if they have other opportunities? And the business aspect of it begs the question of human trafficking and fronts for prostitution.[/QUOTE] Idunno, maybe people who are proud of their body and want to squeeze money out of others by just that - showing their bodies off in a complex, intricate and unique fashion? I take it you have never been in an actual Strip club, so I'd like to tell you it's a bit more than just undressing. The only thing that separates it from an art form - prejudice, thing that society really should've evolved past. And don't bring prostitution into this. This is entirely diffirent form of business. And human trafficking is an entirely separate criminal problem. It's not inherent to these forms of jobs.