Radical Feminists Trying to Attack and Desecrate a Cathedral, Peaceful Defenders Attacked.
281 replies, posted
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43080095]they do though.
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movements_and_ideologies[/url][/QUOTE]
But you said that you wanted them to not have a name. WHY
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;43080170]But you said that you wanted them to not have a name. WHY[/QUOTE]
i said they should all be considered feminist.
feminism is fine
radical feminism is worrying
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;43080170]But you said that you wanted them to not have a name. WHY[/QUOTE]
Having a name isn't bad, it's becoming a faction that's bad.
Again, the united face is what's important- as long as they're all "feminists" the label isn't a problem.
imo
That's the thing. The united face is part of the problem. Because you have to "unite" with "fuck all men, women power" feminists and you can't distance yourself from them. That's exactly what calling yourself egalitarian or equalist tries to achieve.
There is no problem when there is a name for what you're promoting. There is a confusion when what you are promoting shares a name with what you oppose.
[QUOTE=geogzm;43080198]feminism is fine
radical feminism is worrying[/QUOTE]
define radical femnism for me plz.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43080423]That's the thing. The united face is part of the problem. Because you have to "unite" with "fuck all men, women power" feminists and you can't distance yourself from them. That's exactly what calling yourself egalitarian or equalist tries to achieve.
There is no problem when there is a name for what you're promoting. There is a confusion when what you are promoting shares a name with what you oppose.[/QUOTE]
how would i distance myself? do i just walk really far away?
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];43080233']Having a name isn't bad, it's becoming a faction that's bad.
Again, the united face is what's important- as long as they're all "feminists" the label isn't a problem.
imo[/QUOTE]
it isn't really a "united-face" even. it's just us as a group deciding we aren't going to play some little game where we have to constantly be on the lookout for the "bad feminists". we don't have these fucking witch hunts where we burn the "man-haters" at the stake. we just acknowledge their existence.
trying to get feminists to criticize other feminists is a way of discrediting the whole fucking movement because it re-frames the argument away from patriarchy. it also creates this idea of "good feminist, bad feminist", and the culture can just redefine "good feminism" as the people who aren't really dangerous to the current structure.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43080786]define radical femnism for me plz.
how would i distance myself? do i just walk really far away?
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
it isn't really a "united-face" even. it's just us as a group deciding we aren't going to play some little game where we have to constantly be on the lookout for the "bad feminists". we don't have these fucking witch hunts where we burn the "man-haters" at the stake. we just acknowledge their existence.
trying to get feminists to criticize other feminists is a way of discrediting the whole fucking movement because it re-frames the argument away from patriarchy. it also creates this idea of "good feminist, bad feminist", and the culture can just redefine "good feminism" as the people who aren't really dangerous to the current structure.[/QUOTE]
radical feminism is more oriented towards bringing down male power and they're the ones who are willing to break off and live from IVF and all this extreme stuff, feminism is more oriented towards gender equality and keeping men around still without burning down a building in the process
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
afaik
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
i have now realised your insinuations
that's what i get for posting in a political anything ever
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43080786]how would i distance myself? do i just walk really far away?[/QUOTE]
Sigh. My every post was about it, how do you not get it by now? And can you quit with the snarky comments please? Actually put some effort and mental process to the discussion?
And the answer to your question is in the post you have just quoted. And if you want it rephrased you could say something like "it's not what my movement is about" or "they are not really X if they do this and that", instead of going "yeah they are part of my movement but you are just lazy for not researching it enough". You distance yourself by saying that you don't share the same ideas.
Look at gamers and CoD players example you brought. Look at catholics and westboro. Everybody knows they are a separate branch and that nobody should judge everyone based on that, but when it comes to feminists "nononono no division plz".
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43080786]it isn't really a "united-face" even. it's just us as a group deciding we aren't going to play some little game where we have to constantly be on the lookout for the "bad feminists". we don't have these fucking witch hunts where we burn the "man-haters" at the stake. we just acknowledge their existence.
trying to get feminists to criticize other feminists is a way of discrediting the whole fucking movement because it re-frames the argument away from patriarchy. it also creates this idea of "good feminist, bad feminist", and the culture can just redefine "good feminism" as the people who aren't really dangerous to the current structure.[/QUOTE]
Yes lets not point it out that feminism is not about hating men and then complain that people don't understand what feminism is.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43080987]Sigh. My every post was about it, how do you not get it by now? And can you quit with the snarky comments please? Actually put some effort and mental process to the discussion?
And the answer to your question is in the post you have just quoted. And if you want it rephrased you could say something like "it's not what my movement is about" or "they are not really X if they do this and that", instead of going "yeah they are part of my movement but you are just lazy for not researching it enough". You distance yourself by saying that you don't share the same ideas.
Look at gamers and CoD players example you brought. Look at catholics and westboro. Everybody knows they are a separate branch and that nobody should judge everyone based on that, but when it comes to feminists "nononono no division plz".[/quote]
i do say i don't share the same ideas. i say things like "you guys need to actually take the effort to understand the feminist movement because these groups don't represent my views or beliefs"
[quote]Yes lets not point it out that feminism is not about hating men and then complain that people don't understand what feminism is.[/QUOTE]
since when did anyone not point that out?
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=geogzm;43080975]radical feminism is more oriented towards bringing down male power and they're the ones who are willing to break off and live from IVF and all this extreme stuff, feminism is more oriented towards gender equality and keeping men around still without burning down a building in the process
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
afaik
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
i have now realised your insinuations
that's what i get for posting in a political anything ever[/QUOTE]
most feminism is about bringing down "male power". that's something that needs to be done if you believe in equality for men and women.
radicals believe the solution lies outside of the electoral system. you can't vote away patriarchy, you smash it.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43081211]i do say i don't share the same ideas. i say things like "you guys need to actually take the effort to understand the feminist movement because these groups don't represent my views or beliefs"
since when did anyone not point that out?
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
most feminism is about bringing down "male power". that's something that needs to be done if you believe in equality for men and women.
radicals believe the solution lies outside of the electoral system. you can't vote away patriarchy, you smash it.[/QUOTE]
i was taught that radical feminists wanted to push further over the line than equality, that they wanted to completely detach females from males and live independently or some shit
[QUOTE=geogzm;43081257]i was taught that radical feminists wanted to push further over the line than equality, that they wanted to completely detach females from males and live independently or some shit[/QUOTE]
you were taught wrong and that's because radicalism as a whole is demonized. your definition of a radical feminist is a straw feminist. they don't really exist in the world. they are a creation of popular culture and politics to undermine the beliefs of people who are a threat to the current power structure.
radical feminists challenge traditional gender relations. radical anticapitalists threaten traditional economic relations. radical environmentalists challenge our relationship to nature. these things are not palatable to the people in power and sorta scary for the ordinary people who benefit from these relationships because change is naturally scary for people.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43081211]i do say i don't share the same ideas. i say things like "you guys need to actually take the effort to understand the feminist movement because these groups don't represent my views or beliefs"[/QUOTE]
Well yes you do say things like "yeah they are part of my movement but you are just lazy for not researching it enough" but then you still call them part of your movement.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43081211]since when did anyone not point that out?[/QUOTE]
When you advocated calling many different philosophies the same name?
[editline]5th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43081311]you were taught wrong and that's because radicalism as a whole is demonized. your definition of a radical feminist is a straw feminist. they don't really exist in the world. they are a creation of popular culture and politics to undermine the beliefs of people who are a threat to the current power structure.[/QUOTE]
This is fucking bullshit. You have people on this very site saying that all men should pay compensation to women and that you can't possibly discriminate men.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43081320]Well yes you do say things like "yeah they are part of my movement but you are just lazy for not researching it enough" but then you still call them part of your movement.
When you advocated calling many different philosophies the same name?[/QUOTE]
they are part of the movement though. you are perpetuating an attitude that feminism is not legitimate unless it is free from anyone who you find distasteful. i could probably do the same thing about any of your political, social, or religious beliefs.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43081311]you were taught wrong and that's because radicalism as a whole is demonized. your definition of a radical feminist is a straw feminist. they don't really exist in the world. they are a creation of popular culture and politics to undermine the beliefs of people who are a threat to the current power structure.
radical feminists challenge traditional gender relations. radical anticapitalists threaten traditional economic relations. radical environmentalists challenge our relationship to nature. these things are not palatable to the people in power and sorta scary for the ordinary people who benefit from these relationships because change is naturally scary for people.[/QUOTE]
at this point I choose to exit the thread because I feel like you're going to make me fail my sociology exams :v:
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43081320]This is fucking bullshit. You have people on this very site saying that all men should pay compensation to women and that you can't possibly discriminate men.[/QUOTE]
discrimination against men is non-existent as a cultural problem except in a few very specific instances. those instances are generally symptoms of discrimination of women though.
and yea compensation for women might be needed. idk if that's monetary compensation, because that's sorta a superficial way of solving a problem. but just making men and women equal is "compensating" them.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43081371]they are part of the movement though. you are perpetuating an attitude that feminism is not legitimate unless it is free from anyone who you find distasteful. i could probably do the same thing about any of your political, social, or religious beliefs.[/QUOTE]
You are still missing the point. It's not that "feminism is not legitimate unless it is free from anyone who you find distasteful". It's distance yourself from people who call themselves feminists but don't follow it's ideas.
I'll say it again, this is what calling yourself egalitarian or equalist tries to achieve. To show that you support only a specific set of ideas from the very broad thing that's called feminism.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43081405]discrimination against men is non-existent as a cultural problem except in a few very specific instances. those instances are generally symptoms of discrimination of women though. [/QUOTE]
How full of shit are you? "Gender double standards are wrong unless they are hurting men" is what you've just said.
It's not discrimination when someone is hiring only women but it is horrible and misogynistic when someone is hiring only men. Way to double standard, mr."I oppose gender discrimination".
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43081405]and yea compensation for women might be needed. idk if that's monetary compensation, because that's sorta a superficial way of solving a problem. but just making men and women equal is "compensating" them.[/QUOTE]
"Equal rights, men and women are equal but men should pay women. If you disagree you are a woman hater". This is why people who oppose gender roles don't want to call themselves feminists. Because they don't want to be associated with people like you.
[editline]6th December 2013[/editline]
And then you dare to say shit like that
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43081311][QUOTE=geogzm;43081257][B]i was taught that radical feminists wanted to push further over the line than equality,[/B] that they wanted to completely detach females from males and live independently or some shit[/QUOTE]
you were taught wrong and that's because radicalism as a whole is demonized. [B]your definition of a radical feminist is a straw feminist.[/B] [B]they don't really exist in the world. they are a creation of popular culture and politics to undermine the beliefs of people who are a threat to the current power structure.[/B][/QUOTE]
when on top of equality you want some sort of compensation for women. How the fuck is it not pushing further over the line of equality?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43081574]You are still missing the point. It's not that "feminism is not legitimate unless it is free from anyone who you find distasteful". It's distance yourself from people who call themselves feminists but don't follow it's ideas.
I'll say it again, this is what calling yourself egalitarian or equalist tries to achieve. To show that you support only a specific set of ideas from the very broad thing that's called feminism.[/quote]
what more do you want me to do, really? what would be appropriate action to distance myself?
[quote]How full of shit are you? "Gender double standards are wrong unless they are hurting men" is what you've just said.
It's not discrimination when someone is hiring only women but it is horrible and misogynistic when someone is hiring only men. Way to double standard, mr."I oppose gender discrimination".
"Equal rights, men and women are equal but men should pay women. If you disagree you are a woman hater". This is why people who oppose gender roles don't want to call themselves feminists. Because they don't want to be associated with people like you.[/quote]
name me one instance of cultural oppression of men that can't be adequately explained by patriarchal gender roles.
[quote]when on top of equality you want some sort of compensation for women. How the fuck is it not pushing further over the line of equality?[/QUOTE]
how would it go over the line? compensation is done to restore the damage done on a certain party. drop any pretenses you might have about compensation for a minute and realize that any equalization of society comes about through some form of compensation. the argument is over what forms of compensation are effective to achieve your goals.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43081745]what more do you want me to do, really? what would be appropriate action to distance myself?[/QUOTE]
To have a group within feminism that's like westboro to the catholics or CoD players to all gamers OR to have a different name for those who want to oppose gender roles without radical measures.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43081745]name me one instance of cultural oppression of men that can't be adequately explained by patriarchal gender roles.[/QUOTE]
I could just put as much effort to my response as you did to yours and just say "So it's okay to hire only women for some kind of a job because it's not cultural oppression?".
And really this sort of mentality, that individual discrimination towards men is okay because it's adequately explained by patriarchal gender roles is bullshit. It's flat out victim blaming. "Oh you share a chromosome with people who have hurt women? Well you deserve to be discriminated based on that". Double standards are wrong, especially the gender ones, and especially feminists should be aware of that.
But really this just shows how full of shit you are and so are many feminists. You want equal rights and treatment but you think it's okay to judge and treat men worse because it's not part of institutionalized discrimination.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43081745]how would it go over the line? compensation is done to restore the damage done on a certain party. drop any pretenses you might have about compensation for a minute and realize that any equalization of society comes about through some form of compensation. the argument is over what forms of compensation are effective to achieve your goals.[/QUOTE]
What? How hard is this to understand? Equality is equality. Everything above equality is above equality. If you want equality AND compensation, then it's not really equality is it?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43082017]To have a group within feminism that's like westboro to the catholics or CoD players to all gamers OR to have a different name for those who want to oppose gender roles without radical measures.[/QUOTE]
well there is a different name. you call radical feminists radical feminists. there are liberal feminists too.
[quote]I could just put as much effort to my response as you did to yours and just say "So it's okay to hire only women for some kind of a job because it's not cultural oppression?". [/quote]
depends on the frame of the situation. it might not be cultural oppression. when you are talking about cultural oppression, you are talking in broad, collective terms. it's looking at trends and general attitudes.
[quote]And really this sort of mentality, that individual discrimination towards men is okay because it's adequately explained by patriarchal gender roles is bullshit. It's flat out victim blaming. "Oh you share a chromosome with people who have hurt women? Well you deserve to be discriminated based on that". Double standards are wrong, especially the gender ones, and especially feminists should be aware of that.[/quote]
i never said it's ok. i'm saying it's not really a cultural problem separate from misogyny in general. i'm saying that male oppression and female oppression stem from the same patriarchal attitudes that expect power from men and subjugation from women.
it hurts everyone, although one side gets disproportionate privilege from it.
also i didn't say anything about individual discrimination. individual discrimination of men is not a cultural problem. there are ways that men are culturally oppressed, and ways men can be individually discriminated, but these are actually very separate ideas that come from different sources. cultural oppression is broad and often subtle. it's attitudes that are prevalent in a culture. individual discrimination can be caused by cultural attitudes, but since they are specific events, they can have specific causes that are unique to the oppressor.
[quote]But really this just shows how full of shit you are and so are many feminists. You want equal rights and treatment but you think it's okay to judge and treat men worse because it's not part of institutionalized discrimination.
What? How hard is this to understand? Equality is equality. Everything above equality is above equality. If you want equality AND compensation, then it's not really equality is it?[/quote]
i don't think it's ok to treat men worse though. that's your own pretense and that outlook is not at all rooted in reality.
and equality comes through compensation. that compensation can take the form of many different ideas. compensating women could be an affirmative action approach. it could also be a radical approach that seeks to create organizations that fight cultural attitudes that leave women unequal.
but compensation comes from men. it's a man realizing that he is a privileged member of society and taking action to erode his own privilege for the benefit of women.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;43075918]Well gee it's a good thing no one said that then![/QUOTE]
Except they did, which is why I said that. But I'm not going to argue semantics with you.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43082218]
but compensation comes from men. it's a man realizing that he is a privileged member of society and taking action to erode his own privilege for the benefit of women.[/QUOTE]
Privilege of giving women money. Or work places. Giving. Women. Compensation. Because they're women.
That's some hardcore gender equality and privilege erosion right there.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43081745]about through some form of compensation. the argument is over what forms of compensation are effective to achieve your goals.[/QUOTE]
I have hardly benefited from male privilege. If anything I have alot of disadvantages.
[QUOTE=gudman;43082325]Privilege of giving women money. Or work places. Giving. Women. Compensation. Because they're women.
That's some hardcore gender equality and privilege erosion right there.[/QUOTE]
you could give compensation by not automatically assuming your wife or partner is the one who will do the housework.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43082368]you could give compensation by not automatically assuming your wife or partner is the one who will do the housework.[/QUOTE]
Should women compensate men for assuming that men will do all the breadwinning?
Those men on the feminist side have bigger vaginas than the women.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43082392]Should women compensate men for assuming that men will do all the breadwinning?[/QUOTE]
that is hardly compensation, that is empowerment.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43082368]you could give compensation by not automatically assuming your wife or partner is the one who will do the housework.[/QUOTE]
That's not compensation and you know it perfectly well. That's the default behaviour of a smart person.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43082218]well there is a different name. you call radical feminists radical feminists. there are liberal feminists too.[/QUOTE]
Just a moment ago you've said that all those people are feminist and that you don't want division.
The fact of the matter is, there are radical feminists and liberal feminists all called feminists. And that, plus the portrayal of the feminism throws people off the idea gender equality. A movement with a different name with a stricter definition and which advocates gender equality is beneficial to the cause.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43082218]depends on the frame of the situation. it might not be cultural oppression. when you are talking about cultural oppression, you are talking in broad, collective terms. it's looking at trends and general attitudes. [/QUOTE]
i never said it's ok. i'm saying it's not really a cultural problem separate from misogyny in general. i'm saying that male oppression and female oppression stem from the same patriarchal attitudes that expect power from men and subjugation from women.
it hurts everyone, although one side gets disproportionate privilege from it.
also i didn't say anything about individual discrimination. individual discrimination of men is not a cultural problem. there are ways that men are culturally oppressed, and ways men can be individually discriminated, but these are actually very separate ideas that come from different sources. cultural oppression is broad and often subtle. it's attitudes that are prevalent in a culture. individual discrimination can be caused by cultural attitudes, but since they are specific events, they can have specific causes that are unique to the oppressor.[/QUOTE]
Why does it have to be institutionalized to be a problem? It makes discrimination one sided. Awesome equality you've got there. "You can only discriminate women".
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43082218]i don't think it's ok to treat men worse though. that's your own pretense and that outlook is not at all rooted in reality.[/QUOTE]
How is it not rooted in reality when you have people generalizing all men and saying shit like "you can't discriminate men"?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43082218]and equality comes through compensation. that compensation can take the form of many different ideas. compensating women could be an affirmative action approach. it could also be a radical approach that seeks to create organizations that fight cultural attitudes that leave women unequal.
but compensation comes from men. it's a man realizing that he is a privileged member of society and taking action to erode his own privilege for the benefit of women.[/QUOTE]
Equality means the same standards for both genders. Every time you go men this, women that, you oppose the very nature of equality. Equality is completely gender-neutral.
actually the idea of compensation is flawed in principle since it assumes that gender equality is something that can and should come from men.
instead of compensation, men should comply with equality.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43082447]Equality means the same standards for both genders. Every time you go men this, women that, you oppose the very nature of equality. Equality is completely gender-neutral.[/QUOTE]
If a class in a video game was underpowered, and then the devs gave that class a buff to compensate, would you say "Dude, if you want all the classes to be balanced why are you buffing only one class? Treat them all equally, you hypocrites!"
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