• Creation of the United States of Europe?
    296 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Athelus;17897318]Also, no, the EU is not as powerful as the US. It is as powerful as the US in its immediate region, but doesn't have nearly the same global reach.[/QUOTE] Yes it is. Or rather, it certainly has the potential to be as powerful, if not more so. Economically, the EU is already more powerful than the US. The EU contains some of the richest countries in the world. Militarily, if a combined military was formed then to be honest the EU could easily surpass the USA (a number of EU countries currently have some of the best forces in the world, e.g. UK, France, Germany, etc). In terms of global reach, that's rather an irrelevant point at this stage. The EU isn't fully formed enough to start exerting influence on the rest of the world; at this stage it's still concerned with internal issues. Regardless, if/when the EU develops into a fully formed state it could easily start getting involved with global affairs if it wants to. Another thing that you have to consider is that just because a state doesn't get involved with global affairs doesn't mean it isn't capable of it; that's called isolationism and that's the same route the USA initially went down. In short, once the EU/USE is fully up and running it wil be the new leading power.
Actually, no, it isn't, and it would take a long time for it to get anywhere close. I am a huge supporter of the EU, and consider myself 'patriotic' towards it. I'm not exactly the USA's biggest fan, but I still understand that militarily the US has a force that cannot be outmatched in terms of technical superiority. You also fail to understand that political influence is supremeley important in modern politics. Russia essentially has a stranglehold over the EU in terms of fuel and its political relationship with Eastern European countries. The EU has a degree of soft power which the USA lacks, but itself lacks of any real sphere of influence further outside of its borders. You might claim that isolationism is viable, but you disregard the increasing power of globalisation in International Relations. The international system is entireley different to the period in which countries such as the US could have power whilst following such a policy. Also, being economically driven, the EU has no choice but to deal with external powers, and it is rareley the partner of choice. Also the EU relies heavily on continuing good relations with the United States. The EU has a fair amount of power, yes, if it was further integrated it would have more. However, to assume that the EU could supplant the USA is a daydream. The best that could be hoped for is to keep up with countries such as Russia or China.
[QUOTE=Athelus;17900143]I'm not exactly the USA's biggest fan, but I still understand that militarily the US has a force that cannot be outmatched in terms of technical superiority. [/QUOTE] Well that's wrong for starters. When it comes to technology Europe is just as good, if not better, than the US. For example, there is the Eurofighter, which is ranked one of the best aircraft in the world, the Challenger II, Leopard II and Le Clerc are all either on par or superior to the M1A2 and both France and the UK are in the process of building a number of state-of-th-art aircraft carriers. Also, re-read what I said about political influence. I understand the EU isn't in a position to do much at the moment because, as I said, it's still in it's infancy. Once the EU is a fully formed super-state (which I hope it isn't), it will have huge amounts of influence. Russia is only a temporary issue; the fuel problem can be resolved and the eastern European states will drift over to our side, as they are already doing. Besides, Russia is a rather irrelevant point anyway as we are talking about the EU v the US not the EU v Russia. If the EU ever becomes a unified state, it will surpass the US. I can assure you of that.
[QUOTE=Athelus;17897318]There was also the bit where Ireland got a signed declaration that the treaty would not infringe upon national sovereignty. Also, the EU is wideley seen as the most capitalist political block. And it has free and fair elections. Hell, you haven't read anything on the subject have you? Do you even know what communism is? Bankers and communism don't go hand in hand. But well done somehow mixing all the media hate figures into one big mess. Also, no, the EU is not as powerful as the US. It is as powerful as the US in its immediate region, but doesn't have nearly the same global reach.[/QUOTE] I think you misunderstand me. We are about as free as monkeys at the zoo. Go and read about the Rothschild family. It's Capitalism for the Bankers, Communism for the Proletarait. Do you realize that a central bank prints money out of thin air and lends it to the government at interest? It is not secured by oil or gold, but simply the ability of the taxpayers to repay it. Even if they could tax us 100% of the money in the society in order to repay the central banks of the world for this "service", the interest has to then come from somewhere. And it can't. So they print more, devaluing everyone's money while they have more of it. However, when you control the money printing presses, money isn't enough. You want power. Global government. So how do you achieve this? Simple. Loan money to nations that need it due to artificially created booms and busts. When they can't pay, impose IMF conditionality as part of the loan terms. You give us your jungle, we'll give you a couple billion. Before long, the banks own everything and THEY make the rules. Try placing your vote then, and see what it gets you.
[QUOTE=philxyz;17904945]I think you misunderstand me. We are about as free as monkeys at the zoo. Go and read about the Rothschild family. It's Capitalism for the Bankers, Communism for the Proletarait. Do you realize that a central bank prints money out of thin air and lends it to the government at interest? It is not secured by oil or gold, but simply the ability of the taxpayers to repay it. Even if they could tax us 100% of the money in the society in order to repay the central banks of the world for this "service", the interest has to then come from somewhere. And it can't. So they print more, devaluing everyone's money while they have more of it. However, when you control the money printing presses, money isn't enough. You want power. Global government. So how do you achieve this? Simple. Loan money to nations that need it due to artificially created booms and busts. When they can't pay, impose IMF conditionality as part of the loan terms. You give us your jungle, we'll give you a couple billion. Before long, the banks own everything and THEY make the rules. Try placing your vote then, and see what it gets you.[/QUOTE] You know what, even if this is the case.. then have at it. If people want to create a one world order and own everything then so be it. It's not like a bunch of fuktards like us enhabiting a forum can do anything about it, infact we'll prolly all be dead. So why don't you chill the fuck out and enjoy life rather than stumbling through life being paranoid the illuminati is gonna take your shit. Life goes on, doesn't matter what governments do to fuck this place up, life will go on.
[QUOTE=Beafman;17809790]With the Lisbon Treaty being approved in Ireland (and hopefully the cezch Republic and Poland) then we are definately seeing a trend of toward giving the European Union more power, while giving up national power instead. The Lisbon Treaty also makes the president of the European Union be a more permanent position, since instead of just being 6 months at a time on rotation, it will now be voted by the Council of Europe who would be president for a 2.5 year term.[/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNg6FXsVFug[/media]
Well, its late where I am, so i'm not goint to answer things in full, but the first guy to reply to me- look at US military spending and personell numbers, compare it to all EU states. Next guy, none of the western countries has followed the gold standard for decades (failiure of washington consensus). It's about time you read some books before making some statements about economics.
Scotland and Ireland don't mix. This will never work.
Personally I think it will happen some day. The United States is a spitting image of what the world will be some day. I dont mean Government wise, I mean each country like the states, will be Governed by a central government run by representatives from their respective countries. You can disagree all you want, but this is the only way I see the countries of the world actually working together rather than fighting over everything.
[QUOTE=Orsenfelt;17905788]You know what, even if this is the case.. then have at it. If people want to create a one world order and own everything then so be it. It's not like a bunch of fuktards like us enhabiting a forum can do anything about it, infact we'll prolly all be dead. So why don't you chill the fuck out and enjoy life rather than stumbling through life being paranoid the illuminati is gonna take your shit. Life goes on, doesn't matter what governments do to fuck this place up, life will go on.[/QUOTE] Because if people didn't complain and speak out then others could do evil upon the world and no one would stop them.
[QUOTE=Athelus;17909032]Well, its late where I am, so i'm not goint to answer things in full, but the first guy to reply to me- look at US military spending and personell numbers, compare it to all EU states. Next guy, none of the western countries has followed the gold standard for decades (failiure of washington consensus). It's about time you read some books before making some statements about economics.[/QUOTE] "Read some books" is how I know.
Europeans will never be organised and in agreement of everything enough to be united into one nation. Let's see, we have France, Italy, all of the Balkan states and Greece who will never give up their independence to some outlanders. It's in their genes.
There will ALWAYS be at least 2 opposing camps.
[QUOTE=philxyz;17912270]"Read some books" is how I know.[/QUOTE] Sorry, I was being snappy last night, that was a bit troll-ish. Anyway, I am right that the abolition of the gold-standard has little to do with the EU and alot to do with the USA. Again, the IMF is essentially contolled by the USA. As for the Rothschild family, dynasties of socially elite families are not uncommon, they're hardly a European phenomenon. Anyway, what have you read on the subject? If its something i've got through I might be able to better respond to your argument- it's difficult to make a sensible point on any forums let alone Facepunch. Anyway, I would reccomend you read more about the Bretton Woods system and the Washington Consensus. [QUOTE=Ziji;17912576]There will ALWAYS be at least 2 opposing camps.[/QUOTE] Well, the USA has an army estimated at least 3 times more powerful than its closest neighbour- so bipolarity is usually an unpopular concept at the moment. I would side more with the 'One plus four' neo-realist theory that the USA is the hegemon, but that in their individual regions countries such as China or, (despite not being a country) the EU, have as much if not more power. [QUOTE=Virtanen;17912568]Europeans will never be organised and in agreement of everything enough to be united into one nation. Let's see, we have France, Italy, all of the Balkan states and Greece who will never give up their independence to some outlanders. It's in their genes.[/QUOTE] You're pretty much wrong about France, even a couple of years ago there was talks of a French-German superstate. The United Kingdom and the new member states are a better example though.
[QUOTE=Beafman;17810126] Wonder what they would call that? Oceania?[/QUOTE] Haven't read the whole 8 pages but not gonna lie, I think living in a country called Oceania would be pretty cool.
[QUOTE=Athelus;17912995]You're pretty much wrong about France, even a couple of years ago there was talks of a French-German superstate. The United Kingdom and the new member states are a better example though.[/QUOTE] Country policy =/= the will of the people, ESPECIALLY in France. There would have been extensive riots until they broke it off.
[QUOTE=Beafman;17810126]NAFTA still exists. Some leading parlimentary figures in Europe are going together to write about a possible economical and military alliance between the EU and the North American countries. Wonder what they would call that? Oceania?[/QUOTE] There already is a military alliance, it's called NATO.
[QUOTE=Virtanen;17914589]Country policy =/= the will of the people, ESPECIALLY in France. There would have been extensive riots until they broke it off.[/QUOTE] Well, having lived in France for a fair amount of time, I would say that the French are pretty pro-European integration. It's generally seen as the best vehicle for foreign policy- much in the same way Germany uses the EU to further its economic policy. Also saying that state policy is the opposite of the people's will in a democracy is a bit odd. Do you have a justification? Also, guy above raises a valid point, but yeah, NATO is solely military. And having not previously noticed the quoted comment, I have to say I never heard about such a proposal.
talking about how a country is powerful just because of its military spending is stupid. sure you can spend tonnes of money on a military, but now the US is in a shitload of debt, and the US is also in a conflict, so spending money on the military is in their best interests, also, the US is not well liked so that is another reason for their high spending. now since the EU is economically superior, there is more money to be spent on the military if the need comes
[QUOTE=Sgt_Rock;17914131]Haven't read the whole 8 pages but not gonna lie, I think living in a country called Oceania would be pretty cool.[/QUOTE] You do understand what i hinted to, right? :P
[QUOTE=Anteep2;17914913]talking about how a country is powerful just because of its military spending is stupid. sure you can spend tonnes of money on a military, but now the US is in a shitload of debt, and the US is also in a conflict, so spending money on the military is in their best interests, also, the US is not well liked so that is another reason for their high spending. now since the EU is economically superior, there is more money to be spent on the military if the need comes[/QUOTE] Europe is in debt too- and if you're talking about international relations, then followers of the realist school of thought argue that hard power such as military is the only real method of gaining power, as they believe the international system is essentially anarchic. For example, there is no real body above a state that can enforce a law. The UN tries, but due to any real military power has often been unsuccesful. And whilst political alliances such as the EU might try to mantain stability amongst each state, they only do so as long as they are gaining the most from the alliance. If it turned against their best interests, then they would resort to military means. I'm playing devils advocate here, but it's a school of thought you shouldn't dismiss too quickly. Robert Jervis wrote a good article on the subject in 1999, I forget which journal. Actually, I notice you have a German flag as your avatar- German foreign policy largeley dismisses the above view in favour of a more liberal approach, mainly due to it's past history. Nonetheless, it can be said that the French support of the EU is almost entireley due to its fear of the revival of German military strength. That was basically the reason for the Coal & Steel community, which pretty much started of European Integration.
[QUOTE=Vasili;17911026]Because if people didn't complain and speak out then others could do evil upon the world and no one would stop them.[/QUOTE] When was the last time a protest stopped the 'power' doing what they wanted? Exactly. Protest all you like, but it's futile. The people in power get what they want, wether you like it or not. So you may aswell make the most of it and go along for the ride.. =/
America will go so far. *Index finger wipes tear away.*
i would love to see one gigantic supercountry made of asskicking, tea, and fireworks.
[QUOTE=Beafman;17914944]You do understand what i hinted to, right? :P[/QUOTE] I assume you were talking about 1984. Dunno, but at first the name reminded me of Ace Combat and its fictional countries. I always thought the names sounded pretty cool.
[QUOTE=Orsenfelt;17921058]When was the last time a protest stopped the 'power' doing what they wanted? Exactly. Protest all you like, but it's futile. The people in power get what they want, wether you like it or not. So you may aswell make the most of it and go along for the ride.. =/[/QUOTE] Civil rights in America?
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;17923252]Civil rights in America?[/QUOTE] Civil rights... everywhere...
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