[QUOTE=Vasili;17811860]Open boarders destroy culture and radically change it very fast.[/QUOTE]
Define what "destroy" means in this context and elaborate why the change is bad.
Europe hopefully will never become like the United States.
I pray the EU falls and Europe retakes the sovereingty it lost to that bloody excuse for a government.
[QUOTE=KillerTV;17811881]I'd love to see a united europe.
I find rejecting the idea out of being patriotic to be entirely ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
And because patriotism isn't a valid reason for not wanting a megastate, a megastate can't be bad for any other reason?
The bad thing about this is it's replacing the european system with the USA's system, and the system at the moment (especialy the UK's) is a lot better than the american system.
[QUOTE=TheAnarchist;17811921]Define what "destroy" means in this context and elaborate why the change is bad.[/QUOTE]
Explain to me why change is good.
[QUOTE=Kingy_who;17811954]The bad thing about this is it's replacing the european system with the USA's system, and the system at the moment (especialy the UK's) is a lot better than the american system.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
If any nation tried to model themselves after the US, it'd be a downgrading. The most hated nation and one of the worst nations in the world shouldn't be what you should want to be modeled as.
[QUOTE=Vasili;17811959]Explain to me why change is good.[/QUOTE]
I'm not the one proposing violent enforcement of borders.
Damn Anarchist is one cool kid I wish I could be that pro
[QUOTE=TheAnarchist;17812013]I'm not the one proposing violent enforcement of borders.[/QUOTE]
I'm not the one taking things out of context, violent enforcement of borders? What the fuck, seriously.
[QUOTE=TheAnarchist;17811938]And because patriotism isn't a valid reason for not wanting a megastate, a megastate can't be bad for any other reason?[/QUOTE]
I didn't say that.
I do however, consider it to be better than stiicking with the current system of many different nation states.
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;17811985]If any nation tried to model themselves after the US, it'd be a downgrading. The most hated nation and one of the worst nations in the world shouldn't be what you should want to be modeled as.[/QUOTE]
Come on now, that's just being fucking ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Vasili;17812025]I'm not the one taking things out of context, violent enforcement of borders? What the fuck, seriously.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, what the fuck, srsly, what did I take out of what context?
And if borders aren't enforced by the threat of violence, what kind of candy world do you live in?
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;17811934]Europe hopefully will never become like the United States.
I pray the EU falls and Europe retakes the sovereingty it lost to that bloody excuse for a government.[/QUOTE]
So a large union of countries working together is a... bad thing?
[QUOTE=KillerTV;17812041]I didn't say that.
I do however, consider it to be better than stiicking with the current system of many different nation states.[/QUOTE]
You're right, you didn't, and I didn't mean to say that either, but you didn't state any reason for why you would love to see a "United Europe." What is your argument?
[QUOTE=Trotsky;17812091]So a large union of countries working together is a... bad thing?[/QUOTE]
A large union of countries who have lost all national sovereingty that is practicing laws akin to the United States is a bad thing.
[QUOTE=TheAnarchist;17812068]Yeah, what the fuck, srsly, what did I take out out what context?[/quote]
Somehow you took from me arguing boarders are good that we should shoot everyone who tries to get into said country, which is nonsense. Putting words into my mouth.
[quote]And if borders aren't enforced by the threat of violence, what kind of candy world do you live in?[/QUOTE]
You don't need violence to control boarders, I don't know where you got that idea from.
Probably not going to happen, we can't even all agree to use the same currency, let alone become one single nation.
Different languages, different cultures.
Especially smaller countries will have less to say about what happens in their country when it becomes one single nation.
And weed won't stay legal in The Netherlands, so it's a no go.
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;17812127]A large union of countries who have lost all national sovereingty that is practicing laws akin to the United States is a bad thing.[/QUOTE]
not really.
[QUOTE=Trotsky;17812091]So a large union of countries working together is a... bad thing?[/QUOTE]
They're not exactly working together, because indirect democracy to the power of 2 is a [i]really[/i] shitty incentive.
[QUOTE=Vasili;17811959]Explain to me why change is good.[/QUOTE]
Change isn't good or bad by definition.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17812161]Change isn't good or bad by definition.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;17812127]A large union of countries who have [B]lost all national sovereingty[/B] that is [B]practicing laws akin to the United States[/B] is a bad thing.[/QUOTE]
What's so bad about losing national sovereignty?
What's so bad about the USA laws? Sure they aren't perfect at the moment, (the whole gay marrige thing need to get fixed, and maybe less death penalty and more legalized drugs).
[editline]12:44PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Vasili;17812173]Exactly.[/QUOTE]
Meaning that the unification of Europe isn't a bad thing, and more then likely will have a positive outcome.
[QUOTE=TheAnarchist;17812115]You're right, you didn't, and I didn't mean to say that either, but you didn't state any reason for why you would love to see a "United Europe." What is your argument?[/QUOTE]
I love civil people in an internet debate, it's so rare.
I sort of consider a megaeurope would be us carrying on to the next stage of civilization. We started off with small tribes, which became larger countries. Now however, we're looking at the USA/China/India. All massive countries, two of which have ridiculous growth and one of which with ridiculous power already. I think it's necessary for the the seperate countries of units to combine to keep Europe relative on the world scene.
I'm also a bit of a romantic when it comes to space, and genuinely believe that humans will colonise other planets, this will become far easier with larger power blocks.
Downside to my argument is that I am a ridiculous idealist, I know there are problems along the way, but a unified Europe is what I would ideally like to see.
[QUOTE=Vasili;17812139]Somehow you took from me arguing boarders are good that we should shoot everyone who tries to get into said country, which is nonsense. Putting words into my mouth.[/QUOTE]
Mmmm no, I'm not, state borders and state laws within those borders are always enforced by the threat violence. I went from A to B, I didn't strawman you.
[QUOTE=Vasili;17812139]You don't need violence to control boarders, I don't know where you got that idea from.[/QUOTE]
LOL. Great. Give policemen the authority to cuss at people and see how that works.
[QUOTE=TheAnarchist;17812157]They're not exactly working together, because indirect democracy to the power of 2 is a [i]really[/i] shitty incentive.[/QUOTE]
It's the same anywhere
[QUOTE=Kybalt;17812180]
Meaning that the unification of Europe isn't a bad thing, and more then likely will have a positive outcome.[/QUOTE]
Cultures change all the time, I'm not exactly dumb to that. But to change it so radically through the means of open boarder immigration or the such is not something I would like to see, it was one of Stalin's goals to wipe out all cultural identity of the old Russia and bring in this new one that completely revolved around Communism, I think it will be the same with European union, not exactly tossing out patriotism and culture, but changing it to something that revolves around the greatness of European Federation.
I like the European Union, but I am also skeptical about it, I don't like the idea of giving the union to much power, some points of the Lisbon treaty (more human rights for example) I agree with but with others I don't (such as not being able to simply fire MP members for doing a bad job), because they are hidden in the huge 147 pages of bullshit.
[editline]05:52PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=TheAnarchist;17812200]
LOL. Great. Give policemen the authority to cuss at people and see how that works.[/QUOTE]
In Britain we just ship them back to were they came from if proven to be illegal immigrants, that's [b]really[/b] violent, we also give them money to support them back in their original country.
[QUOTE=Kingy_who;17811954]The bad thing about this is it's replacing the european system with the USA's system, and the system at the moment (especialy the UK's) is a lot better than the american system.[/QUOTE]
It's ironic because the American system is modeled on the UK system.
[QUOTE=toxicpiano;17812287]It's ironic because the American system is modeled on the UK system.[/QUOTE]
They also modeled to a Roman styled system, like the senate.
I doubt the diversity of cultures etc. could function as one.
ugh fucking stupid idea even though it won't happen anyway.
ukip ftw
[editline]06:00PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=toxicpiano;17811601]I'm not sure where you get the idea that there could ever be 'one culture' in Europe. Considering that it could be argued that the north and south of england are culturally different, or even [B]Yorkshire having it's own[/B], it would be extremely difficult to erase these or mash them together. As for one language, there are 23 official languages and hundreds if not thousands of seperate dialects and regional languages. You can't erase these things easily, the general population wouldn't allow it. I can't see a European superstate working at all because it is so different. Unlike the United States for example which shares a common history, European nations are all extremely different and diverse. The only advantages that an EU state would have are that we would be the richest and probably the most powerful country in the world.[/QUOTE]
haha we wish
[QUOTE=Karlos;17812306]I doubt the diversity of cultures etc. could function as one.[/QUOTE]
Boarders are really none existence in Europe anymore (besides the United Kingdom), you can just go anywhere and you rarely have to show your passport, I went to Prague recently and no one ever bothered to ask me for a passport. If we decided to just 'delete' boarders then I doubt much would change, people would keep into their areas and a imaginary boarder system would just would be created, its a natural human thing to do.
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