• Discussion about the "Uncrackable" DRM Denuvo, claimed to kill SSDs due to write cycles
    240 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Dear_Matt;46516354]How can you distinguish writes/read from DRM to Game code? It would mean somebody has actually reverse engineered it. Maybe the game is using lots of I/O, there is no technical proof and yet another rumor about this Denuvo thing.[/QUOTE] it seems extremely weird for a game pushing out 60~ gb of writing in an hour, and people have noticed that games associated with the program have extremely bad optimization issues due to how the DRM works.
Not sure if it was posted, but I'm quickly throwing this down here because I have to rush. If you used to have multiple DVD drives back in the day, the DRM would fuck something up, rev up your copy of a purchased game so hard that it would shatter, and ruin the disc drive.
DRM should be illegal. It harms no one but the consumer.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46516477]idk the usual drm on most games doesn't really do shit to me and usually delays the cracking of a game by a few days, giving the publisher/dev decent sales coverage anyone remember world of goo being announced drm free and having nearly a 90% piracy rate?[/QUOTE] Tbf world of goo looked like a flash game and had the content of one. So its not that surprising people wouldn't pay money for it.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46516477]idk the usual drm on most games doesn't really do shit to me and usually delays the cracking of a game by a few days, giving the publisher/dev decent sales coverage anyone remember world of goo being announced drm free and having nearly a 90% piracy rate?[/QUOTE] Iirc they went bankrupt because of that. I could be wrong though.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46516559]so that makes it ok to steal from the devs? because really at that point its not even just copying or trying out, especially when its 9/10 people doing it[/QUOTE] Pretty sure he pulled the 90% figure out of his ass - they sold the game quite well and participated in one of the first "pay what you want" campaigns; Basically created the concept of what would later become the Humble indie bundle. They released the game on iOS and Android as well and it sold quite well there too.
[QUOTE=Saxon;46516316]Yeah I've played for an hour and some of it seems pretty bullshit based on current write/read counts. Might be more apparent later Pretty much can confirm that the update is a massive fucking lie. I've got only around 2gb read/write from the last 2 hours and not 30 in 40 minutes like that one guy. Either its a problem with an old version of the DRM which isn't present in DA:I or they're lying or it isn't related to the game/drm.[/QUOTE] Who could have guessed
I[QUOTE=Liem;46514226]We now have DRM that actually breaks your computer. What's next? DRM that turns your computer into an active warhead[/QUOTE] DRM. Has changed.
DRM is pointless. It always gets cracked and all it does is screw the customers over. If people want automatic updates, multiplayer and no viruses they will buy the game. Most people who pirate can't really afford the game in the first place.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46516477]idk the usual drm on most games doesn't really do shit to me and usually delays the cracking of a game by a [b]few days[/b], giving the publisher/dev decent sales coverage anyone remember world of goo being announced drm free and having nearly a 90% piracy rate?[/QUOTE] Is the number of lost "potential sales" regained in that small period of time worth all the trouble? Also, 90% piracy rate? As in what, they polled players and 90% admitted to piracy?
[QUOTE=Prolifica;46516687]DRM is pointless. It always gets cracked and all it does is screw the customers over. If people want automatic updates, multiplayer and no viruses they will buy the game. Most people who pirate can't really afford the game in the first place.[/QUOTE] Yeah. Why risk getting viruses if you can buy the game and know that you're getting one for sure.
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;46516718]Is the number of lost "potential sales" regained in that small period of time worth all the trouble? Also, 90% piracy rate? As in what, they polled players and 90% admitted to piracy?[/QUOTE] Out of 100 random people they found on the street only 10(!) bought it. Piracy is indeed rampant.
[QUOTE=villa;46516546]Iirc they went bankrupt because of that. I could be wrong though.[/QUOTE] Yes you're wrong. World Of Goo was a success and is now on every platform ever.
[QUOTE=villa;46516546]Iirc they went bankrupt because of that. I could be wrong though.[/QUOTE]They didn't go bankrupt. They even kinda bragged about having a piracy rate over 90% on their own site, and about how they found that most people had no desire to buy the game whatsoever, and about how in spite of such a high number they still made a lot of money. [editline]18th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=1STrandomman;46516718]Is the number of lost "potential sales" regained in that small period of time worth all the trouble? Also, 90% piracy rate? As in what, they polled players and 90% admitted to piracy?[/QUOTE]Actually, the used the leaderboard system. Basically, they had many more times unique copies of World of Goo submitting scores to the leaderboard than were actually sold total. There were roughly nine times more copies of the game submitting scores than had been sold.
[QUOTE=Merijnwitje;46516428]Not sure if it was posted, but I'm quickly throwing this down here because I have to rush. If you used to have multiple DVD drives back in the day, the DRM would fuck something up, rev up your copy of a purchased game so hard that it would shatter, and ruin the disc drive.[/QUOTE] It's not possible to "overspin" an optical drive from software, or even a driver. You'd need access to the drive's firmware to do that. And writing several thousand different sets of bad firmware for the range of drives on the market at any given time is extremely impractical, assuming the firmware can even be modified on said drives. The more likely cause is a defective optical disc that loses tensile strength when rotated past a certain RPM that's still in the normal range of the optical drive. Unbalanced optical discs from defects or incorrect insertion can also cause them to explode. But an exploded optical disc is not the end of the drive in most cases since the fragments are flung outwards in a spiral pattern, not down. I've cleaned more than a few optical drives out that had exploded discs in them and the drive worked just fine afterwards, minus some scrapes and scratches here and there.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;46514239]Hello lawsuits. People need to make the sacrifice and run games with this long and hard just for the express purpose of having a reason to take them to task for it.[/QUOTE] If they can prove you did it knowingly, then.. ?
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;46516950]If they can prove you did it knowingly, then.. ?[/QUOTE]It doesn't have to be knowingly. They can be sued for negligence, failure to properly test their product. Or if they did know, failure to disclose the hazards of their products. If it could be proven that not only were they aware, but they actively tried to keep people from knowing, then yes it would be knowingly malicious.
[QUOTE=SuperHoboMan;46514719]Is this why my fucking SSD died on me? Because I installed Lords of the Fallen onto it? Are you [I]fucking kidding me[/I]? SSD's are fucking expensive and a fucking $40 game just cost me over $200. I don't want to sound like a typical american douchebag but I really want to sue someone right now.[/QUOTE] Do it, seriously.
I hope Anandtech (yeah, maybe not really their focus) or some reputable site will do research into this - two forum posts aren't really enough for me. [editline]18th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=SuperHoboMan;46514719]Is this why my fucking SSD died on me? Because I installed Lords of the Fallen onto it? Are you [I]fucking kidding me[/I]? SSD's are fucking expensive and a fucking $40 game just cost me over $200. I don't want to sound like a typical american douchebag but I really want to sue someone right now.[/QUOTE] Definitely look into it, but the degradation should be gradual. What generation SSD were you using?
The awkward moment that DRM makes paying customers resort to piracy. I was going to by the new dragon age in a hope it is more like origins...
I wonder how much it costs the publishers to implement this DRM to a game. Like, they're PAYING another company to degrade the user experience of their game. If I would be making a game, I would neither announce that my game doesn't have DRM nor would I announce that I'm using this cool new Denuvo uncrackable pirates get rekt DRM. If I say I don't use DRM, the piracy rates are going to increase, if I say I use DRM the piracy rates are going to increase possibly even more.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;46514934]During the first few weeks of a games release, especially with new, novel DRM implementations? Sure it does, it slows the [B]massive[/B] amounts of piracy unprotected games see. Obviously it doesn't last long, but it lasts long enough to generate a decent amount of money.[/QUOTE] if they are confident about their game a demo should convince people that are on the fence and pirate it
[QUOTE=Winded;46517052]I wonder how much it costs the publishers to implement this DRM to a game. Like, they're PAYING another company to degrade the user experience of their game. If I would be making a game, I would neither announce that my game doesn't have DRM nor would I announce that I'm using this cool new Denuvo uncrackable pirates get rekt DRM. If I say I don't use DRM, the piracy rates are going to increase, if I say I use DRM the piracy rates are going to increase possibly even more.[/QUOTE] I think the best case scenario is to utilize the most effective drm that affects the least amount of legitimate users then after the first 2-4 weeks or so just completely patch out the drm altogether. You protect your first week sales that way without completely screwing over legitimate customers even if the drm scheme you chose is utter trash.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;46515882]Even if you're right I can't help but read this post with an overwhelming sense of "Yeah my brother works at Nintendo so I get all the games early. No you can't come play them I'm under NDA"[/QUOTE] More like, "If I say anything Imma be banned for Warez"
[QUOTE=hexpunK;46514934]During the first few weeks of a games release, especially with new, novel DRM implementations? Sure it does, it slows the [B]massive[/B] amounts of piracy unprotected games see. Obviously it doesn't last long, but it lasts long enough to generate a decent amount of money.[/QUOTE] You need to develop a whole new DRM method, like this one, to make it last that long. And look what this new drm got us, damaged hardware. Most drm is cracked before the game is even released, thats why they only just decided to crack denuvo, a new high profile title using it is about to come out.
Now blackhats are releasing fake torrents for Dragon Age: Inquisition to install malware on peoples computers. Congrats, your creating unnecessary IO overhead for your legit customers and giving blackhats huge botnets to play with.
[QUOTE=Korova;46514237]I've heard rumors that is what SecuROM used to do back in the day :v:[/QUOTE] Starforce did some gnarly shit to people's disc drives, including mine. Ever see a disc fly across the room like a frisbee at 1000 RPM? Not only did it ruin my copy of Jedi Academy, which you can't buy anywhere unless you're lucky, when the disc flew out it scuffed up the optical reader as well, and so it couldn't read discs, either. Had to get a new one. Luckily they're only $20-30 bucks. But a Solid State drive? Those are fucking expensive. Surely SOMEONE who worked on this DRM thought Hey, this reads and writes constantly to the Hard Drive, what would that do to SSD's? It's just SUCH an oversight I have a hard time believing that this is as bad as people say. As far as DRM goes, even if it does 1 Gig an Hour, that's still fucking bullshit. I own the game, I launched it through Origin which you guys yourselves said was its DRM, Why are you running this bullshit in the background, causing increased wear on our hardware, and impacting performance? Gabe said it best, to battle piracy is basically like $60 vs Free. So to win, you have to offer better experience to those who pay over those who don't. What part of ANY DRM has done that? Ever?
Please tell me GTA V doesn't have this shit or I'll have to pirate it instead of buying it LOL I love my ssd and killing it is not what i want.
[QUOTE=Akuma_lektro;46517114]if they are confident about their game a demo should convince people that are on the fence and pirate it[/QUOTE] Honestly they should bring back shareware. Give out the first third or so of the game for free and let people share that around.
[QUOTE=Prolifica;46517304]Now blackhats are releasing fake torrents for Dragon Age: Inquisition to install malware on peoples computers. Congrats, your creating unnecessary IO overhead for your legit customers and giving blackhats huge botnets to play with.[/QUOTE] I wasn't aware the people torrenting people's games were the legit customers, or that EA is responsible for the actions of blackhats.
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