Discussion about the "Uncrackable" DRM Denuvo, claimed to kill SSDs due to write cycles
240 replies, posted
Fifa 15 was supposedly cracked about an hour ago on a private torrenting site.
I've now seen this discussed on at least one other forum and they're systematically saying that the initial report from rpgcodex is wrong or otherwise fake. Tellingly one guy posted this screenshot,
[t]http://i.imgur.com/zTmyAoT.jpg[/t]
Which appears shows the game reading an average amount to the SSD during play. Admittedly that is only one screenshot. But right now until someone else posts more photographic proof or further analysis I'm going with, "the game/DRM probably isn't going to kill your SSD".
Also, since I tend to enjoy discussions and intelligent analysis, please, someone prove me wrong and provide evidence.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46516477]idk the usual drm on most games doesn't really do shit to me and usually delays the cracking of a game by a few days, giving the publisher/dev decent sales coverage
anyone remember world of goo being announced drm free and having nearly a 90% piracy rate?[/QUOTE]
am i the only one who remembers how sins of a solar empire was released completely without DRM of any kind, and sold 200.000 units in a month, with a very small budget of 1 million dollars?
[QUOTE]Sales
In September 2008, Stardock's CEO, Brad Wardell, stated that Sins of a Solar Empire had sold over 500,000 units, with 100,000 of those being download sales, on a development budget of less than $1,000,000.[7] The game sold 200,000 copies in its first month of release alone.[29] The 2012 Rebellion expansion sold over 100,000 copies in its first month of release, setting a Stardock sales record for digital retail.[30][/QUOTE]
turns out you don't need DRM to make money, as long as your game is actually good, and you're asking for a reasonable price.
[QUOTE=Dear_Matt;46516354]How can you distinguish writes/read from DRM to Game code? It would mean somebody has actually reverse engineered it. Maybe the game is using lots of I/O, there is no technical proof and yet another rumor about this Denuvo thing.[/QUOTE]
My guess is that the Denuvo libraries used by the leave a footprint when you inspect the executable while it's running.
Here I created a memory leak in a project of mine, and I caught the leak.
[code]---------- Block 16 at 0x054ABA98: 8 bytes ----------
Leak Hash: 0x00D64958, Count: 1, Total 8 bytes
Call Stack (TID 9844):
0x006FC260 (File and line number not available): MSVCR120D.dll!operator new
f:\nhtv\personal\year 2\spinner\game.cpp (146): Template.exe!Tmpl8::Game::Tick + 0x7 bytes
f:\nhtv\personal\year 2\spinner\template.cpp (127): Template.exe!SDL_main
x:\projects\sdl\src\main\windows\sdl_windows_main.c (140): Template.exe!main + 0xD bytes
x:\projects\sdl\src\main\windows\sdl_windows_main.c (177): Template.exe!WinMain + 0xD bytes
f:\dd\vctools\crt\crtw32\dllstuff\crtexe.c (618): Template.exe!__tmainCRTStartup + 0x15 bytes
f:\dd\vctools\crt\crtw32\dllstuff\crtexe.c (466): Template.exe!WinMainCRTStartup
0x7577495D (File and line number not available): KERNEL32.DLL!BaseThreadInitThunk + 0xE bytes
0x774298EE (File and line number not available): ntdll.dll!RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 0x84 bytes
0x774298C4 (File and line number not available): ntdll.dll!RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 0x5A bytes
Data:
02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........ ........
[/code]
You can see how after it tells you what file and line number the leak is at, it tells you the path that led up to the memory leak.
I have no idea how DRM operates though, so I'm probably wrong.
[img]http://puu.sh/cVKje/558fa5d228.png[/img]
You can also see what programs are talking to what files with the windows resource monitor.
Excessive reads and writes to and from Denuvo files would give it away.
Look how easy Minecraft is to pirate, and has been from day 1. Most successful game ever, just about. CD Projekt Red, the guys behind the Witcher series. They say fuck DRM, and look how well they not only do, but are received in the gaming community.
I just can't name a single instance where DRM negatively affected those it was trying to stop, and positively affected those who it didn't need to
Another example of DRM fucking over legit people
[QUOTE=TheTalon;46517392]Look how easy Minecraft is to pirate, and has been from day 1. Most successful game ever, just about. CD Projekt Red, the guys behind the Witcher series. They say fuck DRM, and look how well they not only do, but are received in the gaming community.
I just can't name a single instance where DRM negatively affected those it was trying to stop, and positively affected those who it didn't need to[/QUOTE]
The whole point of DRM is to buy time for those release day sales. Everyone knows within a week almost every game is cracked and easily installed but having to wait for it is why most people like myself pull the trigger instead of waiting. Sadly after reading this I'm considering waiting for the crack and bypassing Denuvo on my legit copy because I use a SSD and don't want to risk any damage.
That's what I get for paying into this whole DRM bullshit.. More SecuROM surprises.
Use this DRM and your games will be un-piratable.
And what must we give in return for this power?
[i]Everything.[/i]
[QUOTE=Mitsudigi;46517463]The whole point of DRM is to buy time for those release day sales. Everyone knows within a week almost every game is cracked and easily installed but having to wait for it is why most people like myself pull the trigger instead of waiting. Sadly after reading this I'm considering waiting for the crack and bypassing Denuvo on my legit copy because I use a SSD and don't want to risk any damage.
That's what I get for paying into this whole DRM bullshit.. More SecuROM surprises.[/QUOTE]
Except those who buy it have to deal with disconnects, refusal of launching because you have TWO disc drives, CDs shattering because the disc drive revs to RPMs CDs were not meant to hit, inability to login to the servers, and now the wear and tear of your expensive hardware.
DRM drives people who would other wise buy a game to piracy. The people who the DRM was meant to stop in the first place were probably never going to buy the game at all. It's all a load of shit
[QUOTE=ImperialGuard;46514960]The people who played it think it's great.[/quote]
No, statistically this is [B][I]100% impossible.[/I][/B] There are [I]always[/I] people who don't like a product regardless of its 'objective' quality.
[QUOTE=Amakir;46517350]Honestly they should bring back shareware. Give out the first third or so of the game for free and let people share that around.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately demos and shareware negatively affect mediocre games which is why they've pretty much fallen out of use. It's a lot easier to just dump millions into advertising campaigns to guarantee high sales from people who will fall for the ads rather than making a legitimately great game with a demo that shows that well without coming across as if it were cherry picking.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;46517372]am i the only one who remembers how sins of a solar empire was released completely without DRM of any kind, and sold 200.000 units in a month, with a very small budget of 1 million dollars?[/QUOTE]
And in my case at least introducing drm later on lost them sales when it came to the expansions.
[QUOTE=Mitsudigi;46517463]The whole point of DRM is to buy time for those release day sales. Everyone knows within a week almost every game is cracked and easily installed but having to wait for it is why most people like myself pull the trigger instead of waiting. Sadly after reading this I'm considering waiting for the crack and bypassing Denuvo on my legit copy because I use a SSD and don't want to risk any damage.[/QUOTE]
DRM is the new version of that word-of-mouth cinema rush they pull with bombs: They publicize the fuck out of it in the hopes that people will buy tickets on opening weekend and see it before word of mouth gets around and everyone finds out it's shit. Same happens with DRM and review embargoes.
Denuvo? More like Bend over and let us fuck you in the ass sort of DRM. Why won't game developers have confidence that people won't pirate their games? If publishers just focus on the actual number of sales than piracy, they won't lose actual loyal customers who buy their stuff legitimately.
So RDM has actually become malware at this point?
Ok
[QUOTE=BCell;46517524]Denuvo? More like Bend over and let us fuck you in the ass sort of DRM. Why won't game developers have confidence that people won't pirate their games? If publishers just focus on the actual number of sales than piracy, they won't lose actual loyal customers who buy their stuff legitimately.[/QUOTE]Big companies do not care about loyal customers, they care about sale numbers. Lose some, gain some. It's all about balance.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;46517372]am i the only one who remembers how sins of a solar empire was released completely without DRM of any kind, and sold 200.000 units in a month, with a very small budget of 1 million dollars?[/QUOTE]
That's not exactly true, to install the digital version of the game, install any of the expansions, or update the game (necessary for online play) requires the CD key be registered to Impulse. They figured that the main appeal of the game is multiplayer and put in just enough DRM to discourage casual piracy of it. Contrast to games like World of Goo and Hotline Miami, DRM-free single-player games, that had some pretty absurd rates of piracy.
Nobody's saying a DRM-free game can't sell well, but the stakes are lower and the margins more forgiving for small studios. If you spend a million dollars to develop a game you can take risks that a AAA studio that invested five million in production simply can't.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;46517392]I just can't name a single instance where DRM negatively affected those it was trying to stop, and positively affected those who it didn't need to[/QUOTE]
Because you're the consumer, not the guy whose paycheck is determined by whether or not the game turns a profit. Talk to any studio whose unintrusive DRM went uncracked for the crucial first week of release and they'll probably have a different answer.
The overwhelming trend in the games industry is towards DRM. Companies are going so far as to turn to extremely invasive DRM in the guise of content delivery, like Steam, Origin, or (until recently) GfWL as a means of preventing casual piracy. You can find quotes from AAA developers about how they're focusing on multiplayer, because single-player games are more likely to be pirated.
Most developers, barring some small studios like CD Projekt Red, view DRM as a necessary evil. I don't understand how some people here seem to think that they know the industry better and that all these developers must enjoy writing tedious copy protection instead of spending that time polishing the game itself. It is never going to go away.
And now, because someone else has tried it for themselves:
[QUOTE=Saxon;46516316]Yeah I've played for an hour and some of it seems pretty bullshit based on current write/read counts.
Might be more apparent later
Pretty much can confirm that the update is a massive fucking lie. I've got only around 2gb read/write from the last 2 hours and not 30 in 40 minutes like that one guy.
Either its a problem with an old version of the DRM which isn't present in DA:I or they're lying or it isn't related to the game/drm.[/QUOTE]
It looks like it might be much ado about nothing after all.
You can defend DRM all you want, it drives more people towards piracy than it prevents. Until an official word comes out about this Denuvo shit about how much it actually reads and writes, I'm not giving them money
[QUOTE=1STrandomman;46516718]Is the number of lost "potential sales" regained in that small period of time worth all the trouble?
Also, 90% piracy rate? As in what, they polled players and 90% admitted to piracy?[/QUOTE]
Many games call home and report some identifying data of the user running it (IP being one example, but there are others). For companies that digitally distribute, they can cross-check against the info on users that purchased the game or logged in with a paid account. This gives them reliable data as to what percentage of players are legitimate, and even stuff like how many bought the game after pirating it. With this data they determine whether or not DRM is worth the investment of time and money for future releases. No developer chooses to implement DRM 'just because', they have to make a use case to the publisher to justify their decision, or the publisher may do their own analysis and stipulate a DRM platform.
[editline]18th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=TheTalon;46517794]You can defend DRM all you want, it drives more people towards piracy than it prevents.[/QUOTE]
This is what I'm talking about, gamers make these statements based entirely on assumptions. Meanwhile the companies that have the market research and vested interest in gaining the most profit possible overwhelmingly seem to choose to use DRM. Why do you suppose that is? Do you really think that if an EA number-cruncher came to the conclusion that making their games cripplingly dependent on Origin is more harmful to their profits than beneficial, and that they could make more money by releasing games DRM-free, that they'd stick with DRM out of spite?
Crap, I pre-ordered DA Inquisition, but I don't wanna fuck up my HDD.
Even if this DRM really is uncrackable I don't think it will increase their sales much. Not every pirate is a potential customer.
Catbarf EA would make loads more cash if they just sold their games on steam like everyone else.
It's stupid that I have to have origin, uplay and steam running on my pc.
[editline]18th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Technopath;46518036]Crap, I pre-ordered DA Inquisition, but I don't wanna fuck up my HDD.[/QUOTE]
Shouldn't damage hard disk drives just SSD's
Don't install any games with this Denuvo DRM to an SSD.
I hope this gets cracked within a week to show these morons how futile and pointless DRM is.
steam/origin/desura is a form of drm in itself so it really isn't futile
it just isn't invasive one bit
[QUOTE=Liem;46514226]We now have DRM that actually breaks your computer. What's next? DRM that turns your computer into an active warhead[/QUOTE]
But that would be against the ToS of any IDE
[QUOTE=Ownederd;46518194]steam/origin/desura is a form of drm in itself so it really isn't futile
it just isn't invasive one bit[/QUOTE]
steam is extremely futile, just not massively invasive (still annoying though)
I keep getting amazed at EA's ability to come up with even more ways to make people to not buy their crap.
[QUOTE=Zezibesh;46518365]steam is extremely futile, just not massively invasive (still annoying though)[/QUOTE] I've never been annoyed by Steam. What is annoying is how EA and Ubisoft try to copy steam and put exclusive titles on them so you have to get their software.
I locked it because it broke SH rules, but afterwards I thought it's still something that should be discussed, so I'm moving it here instead, and I added bits to the title.
Should give it more attention as well.
[QUOTE=Prolifica;46518450]I've never been annoyed by Steam. What is annoying is how EA and Ubisoft try to copy steam and put exclusive titles on them so you have to get their software.[/QUOTE]
lmfao you've had several years to get used to origin. it's not that big of a deal to register for it for a few exclusive games
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;46514244]i wanna know what the folks that defended this horrible DRM on the other thread have to say now :v:[/QUOTE]
Considering the source on this is (once again) simply bullshit spread by angry russian pirates who can't pirate the game nothing new
If this does in fact do what the thread suggests, then there is no reason to support it at all. Why would anyone support DRM that actively degrades SSD hardware much quicker than normal if you happen to install the game on one?
Its a shame however it clearly doesn't from the proof that has come up: the claims made by the "source" (lmao as if a dude on a forum quoting nobody is a source) are completely bullshit.
[QUOTE=Ownederd;46518655]lmfao you've had several years to get used to origin. it's not that big of a deal to register for it for a few exclusive games[/QUOTE]
ubi's is pure bullshit though, you shouldn't have to open steam, then open ubi's player in steam, then launch the fucking game. meanwhile people who pirate it just launch the game and they are done. this gets tedious as fuck when you're adjusting the game so its stable for your system, but have to restart every time you change it.
[editline]18th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=KorJax;46518660]Considering the source on this is (once again) simply bullshit spread by angry russian pirates who can't pirate the game nothing new
If this does in fact do what the thread suggests, then there is no reason to support it at all. Why would anyone support DRM that actively degrades SSD hardware much quicker than normal if you happen to install the game on one?
Its a shame however it clearly doesn't from the proof that has come up: the claims made by the "source" (lmao as if a dude on a forum quoting nobody is a source) are completely bullshit.[/QUOTE]
but theres a guy in this very thread that put lords of the fallen on his SSD, and it crapped out shortly after. By just how the DRM works you could easily tell all that processing the SSD has to keep doing will hurt it extremely.
[QUOTE=BCell;46517524]If publishers just focus on the actual number of sales than piracy, they won't lose actual loyal customers who buy their stuff legitimately.[/QUOTE]
With budgets going the way they are, do you REALLY want to count on one of the shakiest and most unreliable factors possible?
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