Discussion about the "Uncrackable" DRM Denuvo, claimed to kill SSDs due to write cycles
240 replies, posted
[QUOTE=codemaster85;46518698]but theres a guy in this very thread that put lords of the fallen on his SSD, and it crapped out shortly after. By just how the DRM works you could easily tell all that processing the SSD has to keep doing will hurt it extremely.[/QUOTE]
That could be completely coincidental
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;46518744]That could be completely coincidental[/QUOTE]
I can believe that the game could be causing extreme numbers of read/write cycles. I would sooner attribute it to an unforeseen bug in the game than a design feature of the DRM, especially when other people are not reporting the same behavior.
[QUOTE=codemaster85;46518698]ubi's is pure bullshit though, you shouldn't have to open steam, then open ubi's player in steam, then launch the fucking game. meanwhile people who pirate it just launch the game and they are done. this gets tedious as fuck when you're adjusting the game so its stable for your system, but have to restart every time you change it.
[editline]18th November 2014[/editline]
but theres a guy in this very thread that put lords of the fallen on his SSD, and it crapped out shortly after. By just how the DRM works you could easily tell all that processing the SSD has to keep doing will hurt it extremely.[/QUOTE]
Thats not how SSD's work. Its pure coincidence that the SSD crapped out when he started playing LotF
[url]http://www.anandtech.com/show/4159/ocz-vertex-3-pro-preview-the-first-sf2500-ssd/2[/url]
[quote]If I never install another application and just go about my business, my drive has 203.4GB of space to spread out those [B]7GB of writes per day[/B]. That means in roughly 29 days my SSD, if it wear levels perfectly, I will have written to every single available flash block on my drive. Tack on another 7 days if the drive is smart enough to move my static data around to wear level even more properly. So we're at approximately 36 days before I exhaust one out of my ~10,000 write cycles. [B]Multiply that out and it would take 360,000 days of using my machine for all of my NAND to wear out; once again, assuming perfect wear leveling. That's 986 years. Your NAND flash cells will actually lose their charge well before that time comes, in about 10 years.[/B][/quote]
[url]http://thessdguy.com/what-happens-when-ssds-fail/[/url]
[quote]Even so, today’s controllers take steps that help the IT manager to manage wear and avoid potential outages. [B] First, since the wear mechanism is well understood, the controller can keep track of each block and can report back to the user when the SSD is approaching the end of its useful life. [/B]This information is available through ANSI’s standard ATA SMART commands (Self-Monitoring, Analysis and Reporting Technology). The only drawback is that current storage management software doesn’t proactively put this information in front of the operator, so it is up to the operator to interrogate each SSD to determine when it should be replaced.
[B]Eventually this task will be automated and an alarm will warn the operator when an SSD is approaching its limit.[/B]
Second, when an SSD is allowed to run right to the end of its useful life,[B] most controllers put the SSD into a “Read-Only” state that allows the operator to remove the SSD, copy its contents onto another device, then re-start operations in the shortest amount of time.[/B] This is a far cry from the total loss of an HDD. The SSD could even be replicated as an alternative to performing a slower RAID rebuild.[/quote]
Lets assume that this DRM even does this anyways. Say you play for 2 hours every day, making it take up 80GB of write data. It would take on a drive like the above, [B]109 years of 80GB worth of r/w data being put onto the SSD every day before the SSD gets worn out.[/B]
The undeniable proof is that his SSD was already about to crap itself from faulty firmware/hardware if it died from LotF, AND we also already have proof from the last page that LotF doesn't read/write any more than any other typical program anyways even if it did do that.
If it is within warranty, he should get his SSD replaced for free on warranty.
[QUOTE=KorJax;46518987]Thats not how SSD's work. Its pure coincidence that the SSD crapped out when he started playing LotF
[URL]http://www.anandtech.com/show/4159/ocz-vertex-3-pro-preview-the-first-sf2500-ssd/2[/URL]
[URL]http://thessdguy.com/what-happens-when-ssds-fail/[/URL]
Lets assume that this DRM even does this anyways. Say you play for 2 hours every day, making it take up 80GB of write data. It would take on a drive like the above, [B]109 years of 80GB worth of r/w data being put onto the SSD every day before the SSD gets worn out.[/B]
The undeniable proof is that his SSD was already about to crap itself from faulty firmware/hardware if it died from LotF, AND we also already have proof from the last page that LotF doesn't read/write any more than any other typical program anyways even if it did do that.
If it is within warranty, he should get his SSD replaced for free on warranty.[/QUOTE]
There's a chance that it was just a very, very, [I]very[/I] awful coincidence that my SSD stopped working while playing Lords of the Fallen, but there's still a chance that it was the DRMs fault as well. The performance issues were ripe with the game. It was maxing out my CPU, overheating my GPU, and crashing on a constant basis even on the lowest settings. Even if it wasn't fucking with my SSD, the game was still a completely unoptimized mess of code with serious issues that people have claimed are being caused by the DRM, and my SSD did just happen to crash in the middle of playing it, and was even slowing down before the crash.
[editline]18th November 2014[/editline]
And my SSD was working in top condition days before it crashed. I played a lot of Lords of the Fallen. A LOT. I wanted to like it because it was a pretty decent game that was plagued by severe stability issues. I would try for hours to adjust graphical settings in hopes that the game would stop crashing.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46516477]
anyone remember world of goo being announced drm free and having nearly a 90% piracy rate?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=villa;46516546]Iirc they went bankrupt because of that. I could be wrong though.[/QUOTE]
I actually pirated WoG back in 2009, I'm afraid that I was part of the problem here
in the following years I bought it on like three different platforms to compensate, but I guess the damage was already done
I hope that the ban that I'll receive from mods for warez will purify me from sin
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Warez and knew the rules" - Orkel))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Radley;46517466]Use this DRM and your games will be un-piratable.
And what must we give in return for this power?
[i]Everything.[/i][/QUOTE]
On the off-topic, where did that quote come from?
I'm honestly sad that people don't care enough to actually use critical thinking for stuff like this, just gotta leave my comment showing that I hate shit DRM and I'll never buy GTA V because I heard some guy on a russian forum say they were using this same DRM on it that literally sets your computer on fire
[QUOTE=WhyNott;46519526]I actually pirated WoG back in 2009, I'm afraid that I was part of the problem here
in the following years I bought it on like three different platforms to compensate, but I guess the damage was already done
I hope that the ban that I'll receive from mods for warez will purify me from sin[/QUOTE]
Dude, fucking chill, a lot on previous page said that those claims are bullshit and they actually turned out really profitable with World of Goo.
[QUOTE=Stopper;46516584]Pretty sure he pulled the 90% figure out of his ass - they sold the game quite well and participated in one of the first "pay what you want" campaigns; Basically created the concept of what would later become the Humble indie bundle. They released the game on iOS and Android as well and it sold quite well there too.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Killuah;46516777]Yes you're wrong.
World Of Goo was a success and is now on every platform ever.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;46516798]They didn't go bankrupt. They even kinda bragged about having a piracy rate over 90% on their own site, and about how they found that most people had no desire to buy the game whatsoever, and about how in spite of such a high number they still made a lot of money.
[/QUOTE]
Okay mods, can you not ban me then I made up my mind
[QUOTE=SuperHoboMan;46519364]Even if it wasn't fucking with my SSD, the game was still a completely unoptimized mess of code with serious issues that people have claimed are being caused by the DRM[/QUOTE]
Who's claiming this? How do they know? FIFA as far as I've heard has had no problems and that has the same DRM. So what would lead people to conclude that it's the DRM and not the game itself?
I've heard that Lord of the Fallens is just a shit PC port
[QUOTE=catbarf;46520331]Who's claiming this? How do they know? FIFA as far as I've heard has had no problems and that has the same DRM. So what would lead people to conclude that it's the DRM and not the game itself?[/QUOTE]
It's just what people are saying. I've read a bunch of random shit. Maybe it's not the DRM, but it's still a terrible port with terrible performance that's been fucking with my PC.
At least it was a terrible port fucking with my PC, until my SSD crashed with the game still on it.
Guess who's not reinstalling Lords of the Fallen? :v:
[QUOTE=BCell;46517524]Denuvo? More like Bend over and let us fuck you in the ass sort of DRM. Why won't game developers have confidence that people won't pirate their games? If publishers just focus on the actual number of sales than piracy, they won't lose actual loyal customers who buy their stuff legitimately.[/QUOTE]
people WILL pirate the game 100% of the time, but you'll probably get more sales without DRM anyways, so fuck it.
[QUOTE=SuperHoboMan;46519364]There's a chance that it was just a very, very, [I]very[/I] awful coincidence that my SSD stopped working while playing Lords of the Fallen, but there's still a chance that it was the DRMs fault as well. The performance issues were ripe with the game. It was maxing out my CPU, overheating my GPU, and crashing on a constant basis even on the lowest settings. Even if it wasn't fucking with my SSD, the game was still a completely unoptimized mess of code with serious issues that people have claimed are being caused by the DRM, and my SSD did just happen to crash in the middle of playing it, and was even slowing down before the crash.
[editline]18th November 2014[/editline]
[B]And my SSD was working in top condition days before it crashed. [/B]I played a lot of Lords of the Fallen. A LOT. I wanted to like it because it was a pretty decent game that was plagued by severe stability issues. I would try for hours to adjust graphical settings in hopes that the game would stop crashing.[/QUOTE]
That means its was faulty hardware/firmware
When you did you get SSD? SSD's have a very high chance of failure in their first year of ownership since that is when any flaws in manufacturing for an SSD is most likely to come up. If you don't have failure within the first year then the chance of failure happening goes way down.
Lords of the fallen might have been the thing to trigger the failure at the moment it happened but if it wasn't faulty to begin with then an SSD will never just "fail" on you from a specific action or a game or a physical force, like a hard drive might. You would have had degrading performance, warnings, and eventually an inability to read/write to the SSD (but still recover data from it) if the claims in the OP are true.
[QUOTE=Elecbullet;46514911]I say piracy is bad.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://puu.sh/cWkhV/f32e550bee.png[/img]
Fucking wow.
Maybe I'm just surprised as someone who's seen piracy rehabilitation happen and know people that used to torrent shit but now buy everything.
[editline]a[/editline]
Like I'm fucking pumped for GTAV on PC but if I don't have the money to get it when it comes out, I'll just keep saving up because they deserve the money for their product that I want.
[QUOTE=gk99;46521046]
Fucking wow.
Maybe I'm just surprised as someone who's seen piracy rehabilitation happen and know people that used to torrent shit but now buy everything.[/QUOTE]
People pirate less now because the marketplace is better. We can get our games on steam, our music on a handful of different streaming sites, and our movies/tv on Netflix. There's very little reason to pirate at all anymore, it's actually easy to buy stuff now.
DRM that breaks computers is going to reverse this trend.
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;46520384]I've heard that Lord of the Fallens is just a shit PC port[/QUOTE]
From what I've been able to find, it is. The game apparently runs something like The Evil Within PC port did on launch, as in it does not use relevant hardware to its fullest and people are getting significantly lower FPS than they should be. Conversely, when looking for anecdotes on FIFA 15 for PC I have yet to track down many proper performance issues or instabilities that have not been linked to the user having crap hardware or similar issues on their end. If there were truly such massive issues with the DRM destroying SSDs, then reports of it would have likely cropped up in the ~35 days between the release of Fifa and Lords of the Fallen. Yet, there has been absolutely nothing on this topic from those handful of Fifa PC players. This could be a disparity between the amount of people who bought each game, but no one can really say for sure. Since there don't appear to accurate numbers in the wild you can't claim that Fifa PC just sold less than Lords of the Fallen.
From where I'm standing it really looks like any technical or harddrive issues encountered with Lords of the Fallen stem from poor coding on the part of the developers, not the DRM they used in the game.
[QUOTE=Ownederd;46518194]steam/origin/[B]desura [/B]is a form of drm in itself[/QUOTE]
Desura isn't even a form of drm at all. It's simply a store and a download/update manager and nothing else. You can install a game, close Desura, then go play it with Desura closed.
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;46519848]Dude, fucking chill, a lot on previous page said that those claims are bullshit and they actually turned out really profitable with World of Goo.[/QUOTE]
It still looks to be selling well too. I just bought it the other day on Android and the Google Play store says it has 500,000-1,000,000 installs. And that at like $5 as well. If I recall correctly the guys who made World of Goo are a two man team so a minimum of $2,500,000 just off Android is still quite a lot.
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;46519837]On the off-topic, where did that quote come from?[/QUOTE]
WoW: Warlords of Draenor trailer.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;46522022]
DRM that breaks computers is going to reverse this trend.[/QUOTE]
It might very well. When it comes to Ubisoft games, I always buy them, download and [b]use a crack[/b] to get rid of Uplay. Yeah I have to repeat the process to get updates, but that's a small price for not having to deal with a piece of fucking shit, is it? Since this new system kind of prevents me from doing just that, in order to get rid of DRM and stuff I'll have to download whole repacks from Torrents. I will still buy the game though, just won't download it with steam.
But how many other people who hate DRM will do that?
[QUOTE=Alice3173;46522242]Desura isn't even a form of drm at all. It's simply a store and a download/update manager and nothing else. You can install a game, close Desura, then go play it with Desura closed.
[/QUOTE]
On that note, Steam isn't even always DRM, i can be just distribution. KSP can be launched without opening steam for example, having it on there just makes patching easier
On piracy: Before Spotify, i got all my music through LimeWire (The good old eminen.without.me.exe.mp3 days) and paid fuck all. When Spotify started up i started using the free version. Not paying much, but ad money and such. Now i pay for premium and don't pirate music. Anecdotal and all, but at least my habits changed due to just having a better distribution available.
I've had FIFA 15 installed on my SSD since release day and have played 98 hours, should I be worried or is this just hyperbole spread by huge nerds that are scared their SSD might have its lifespan shortened by a day?
[editline]19th November 2014[/editline]
I've just read through the thread a bit, I was right it's just people over exaggerating
back to FIFA for me then
[QUOTE=zerosix;46526198]
I've just read through the thread a bit, I was right it's just people over exaggerating...
[/QUOTE]
Last words before SSD dies.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;46524354]WoW: Warlords of Draenor trailer.[/QUOTE]
Damnit, of course! :(
allegedly the Chinese just cracked into fifa 15
the crack is being spreaded privately via email so far. no leaks
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/rSS3sIS.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Jackald;46526601]It's downloading shit for free, not a fucking coke addiction.[/QUOTE]
Are you sure? The last game I pirated was chock full of heroine.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;46530589]Are you sure? The last game I pirated was chock full of heroine.[/QUOTE]
Thats what you get for pirating Assassin's Creed: Unity. Pirate something better next time.
[QUOTE=Elecbullet;46514911]I say piracy is bad.[/QUOTE]
not as bad as DRM
which screws over legitimate customers
you're in a thread that explains why its bad
Shitty and intrusive DRM just makes my want to pirate a game more so I dont have to deal with said bullshit.
Why cant companies that deal with millions of dollars think logically for a second? Ill buy your fucking game if it runs good and doesnt make me sign in 4 times and play SP online.
[QUOTE=J!NX;46532978]not as bad as DRM
which screws over legitimate customers
you're in a thread that explains why its bad[/QUOTE]
Piracy is inherently bad, and always will be.
DRM is periodically bad, usually when someone is trying a new idea out.
Pull your head out of your ass. DRM isn't some anti-consumer conspiracy.
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