[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42172233]you don't have to remind yourself how white you are, all you have to is just be empathetic in general, recognize that other groups lack a benefit that we may take for granted, etc. that's what "privilege" is all about.
i know that as individuals there's not a lot we can do about bigotry recognizing these little things helps a lot. it's not about collective guilt, it's about empathy, simple as that.[/QUOTE]
The woman in the video said that not being a bigot wasn't enough. I'm not arguing against the social justice movement, I'm arguing against these idiots in particular.
It's pretty much an established tenet within anti-racist discourse that white people (as a collective) are ultimately to blame, which kinda makes sense because the only other explanation for widespread racism is that people of color are entirely responsible for their own problems, or they've just been consistently unlucky throughout history. Neither of those sound plausible.
Whether or not you think widespread racism exists is another matter (it does), but don't go diluting ideology just to make it more palatable to outsiders.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42171956]nah you dummy they are saying that white people need to use their position in order to bring all people, white or otherwise, up on the same level.[/QUOTE]
So white folks have a moral obligation to help people of color out. I can agree with that. But that counts as a responsibility, and a failure to fulfill a responsibility naturally entails blame, especially if the issue at hand is something as grave as oppression. Maybe all this time I've been espousing a strawman version of anti-racism and progressivism, but I don't buy that a significant component of the effort of compelling the public to combat institutional inequity doesn't center around guilt.
And aren't you supposed to be a cynic anyway? Cynical people don't think that the average person will just get up and commit him or herself to activism after reading about injustice; the natural human response is to default on guilt, largely because it's the easier thing to do.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;42172328]The woman in the video said that not being a bigot wasn't enough. I'm not arguing against the social justice movement, I'm arguing against these idiots in particular.[/QUOTE]
Well she's right. If there's a problem then merely not being a bigot isn't enough to combat it.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42172307]well there are plenty of canadians that would dispute that but ok
and white people benefit strongly from these opportunities.
i dont know why you are more worried about the concept of fault, i don't really see why its important who's fault it is[/QUOTE]
It wouldn't be important whose fault it was, if it weren't for the fact that it is all being placed on one race in particular. I would have no problem working together with all races to further advance... get this, all races, but you cannot expect one race to do this alone. We only make up between one quarter and one third of all people in the world afterall.
[QUOTE=God's Pimp Hand;42172393]
And aren't you supposed to be a cynic anyway?[/QUOTE]
depends on my mood
sometimes im all tsun and no dere
[editline]12th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;42172394]It wouldn't be important whose fault it was, if it weren't for the fact that it is all being placed on one race in particular.[/QUOTE]
it would be very ignorant to say that white people arent treated different from everyone else in at least american, canadian, and european society. why is it placing fault when you point that out?
[QUOTE=God's Pimp Hand;42172393]
Well she's right. If there's a problem then merely not being a bigot isn't enough to combat it.[/QUOTE]
Just because I'm white doesn't make it my job to combat it, I didn't create the problem and other ethnicities are no longer legally unequal, thus I am not under any kind of obligation to do anything about it other than not be a bigot.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42171778]1:10
how is that bad
she's telling people to help others[/QUOTE]
She's saying that you hate black people if you don't complain about how much you hate white people
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42172315]there is truth to that, i totally understand that not all people are super privileged, but that's not what the concept of privilege deals with. sure, some black people are successful and some white people live in squalor, but in the grand scheme of things (specifically in western society), white people hold much more power than other races. look at statistics and you'll find that most western governments are overwhelmingly white, that most corporate executives are white, etc. that's because there's a cultural bias that remains from the highly racist beliefs that were commonplace and institutionalized back in the day.
white people aren't to blame for this, the generations who came before us and created this cultural bias are. i know that getting yelled at for something you didn't do is irritating and i know a lot of the people who spouse my views can also be irritating but really, don't take it personally and don't take it as an insult, just take it as criticism that will help you be a better person.[/QUOTE]
Well, at least you have been reasonable, unlike a good portion of those I have seen defending the idea which is commendable. I can't say that I can fully embrace the idea [I]in its current form[/I], but I can certainly attempt to make an effort to look into it further and try to pick apart what I do and don't agree with.
The only part I have a problem with is
[QUOTE=Dr.Gestapo]look at statistics and you'll find that most western governments are overwhelmingly white[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree with this statistic at all because it's obviously true, but to be fair, I don't think most countries with a predominant race have people in government that are of a minority race. For example, I doubt there are very many white people in positions of power throughout Africa, or Asia.
I'm all for going against racism and being nice to people of other races and stuff, but totally not this mindset of "All white people suck unless you're one of us"
[QUOTE=thisispain;42172412]
it would be very ignorant to say that [B]white people arent treated different from everyone else in at least american, canadian, and european society[/B]. why is it placing fault when you point that out?[/QUOTE]
Ok well I can tell you with near certainty that white people are not welcomed with open arms in much of African society, and parts of Asia(mostly southeast). No doubt you will come back with an argument about the now roughly 150 or so year old colonialism of Africa though, and why they are allowed to be racist because of it.
[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;42172464]Well, at least you have been reasonable, unlike a good portion of those I have seen defending the idea which is commendable. [/QUOTE]
hey why dont i get the begrudgingly given compliment too wtf
[editline]12th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;42172502]Ok well I can tell you with near certainty that white people are not welcomed with open arms in much of African society, and parts of Asia(mostly southeast). No doubt you will come back with an argument about the now roughly 150 or so year old colonialism of Africa though, and why they are allowed to be racist because of it.[/QUOTE]
what is the relevance of african society in our conversation
[QUOTE=thisispain;42172507]hey why dont i get the begrudgingly given compliment too wtf
[editline]12th September 2013[/editline]
what is the relevance of african society in our conversation[/QUOTE]
I can't really say you have been entirely reasonable, but you have certainly shown that you care about your side enough to argue to the end, so that is a good quality in some ways.
[editline]12th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;42172507]
what is the relevance of african society in our conversation[/QUOTE]
You were saying that white people are treated better than other races in predominately white countries. So I said that African people are treated better in predominantly African countries than other races.
[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;42172548]I can't really say you have been entirely reasonable, but you have certainly shown that you care about your side enough to argue to the end, so that is a good quality in some ways.[/QUOTE]
bah i havent even called for white genocide, shows what i get for arguing for sympathy
[editline]12th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Atlascore;42172545]wtf are you smoking poles and many other white eastern europeans are met with loads of bigotry in places like britain and france[/QUOTE]
once again white people is short-hand, im totally aware of that considering i said that i was treated different even tho i was white because i was a different ethnic group
[editline]12th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;42172548]
You were saying that white people are treated better than other races in predominately white countries. So I said that African people are treated better in predominantly African countries than other races.[/QUOTE]
i dont think so, theres hardly any institutions in africa even
a better example would be china, or japan
[QUOTE=thisispain;42172576]
i dont think so, theres hardly any institutions in africa even
a better example would be china, or japan[/QUOTE]
Here hold on:
You were saying that white people are treated better than other races in predominately white countries. So I said that [del]African[/del] Asian people are treated better in predominantly [del]African[/del] Asian countries than other races.
But seriously, just because the many of the Africans living in African countries live in poverty, doesn't mean that any White people living there are not. They can still face discrimination on top of poverty, despite having the natural magical abilities that come with being white.
i think i made it overtly clear that its myopic to say that because were talking about a greatly impersonal thing
just because someone is living in poverty due to things completely out of their control doesnt mean that the institution itself doesnt favour a certain skin colour
Putting down white people for just being white isn't going to help anything. You're just going to create more problems.
Stop seeing colors if you want to make some progress. This goes for all races.
Aside from all the insufferable shit she said in that video I want to know a few things.
How the fuck are shootings, racism, and bombings natural disasters?
Wouldnt racism be a social issue exclusive to mankind?
And since when were guns and bombings natural disasters? If they were natural then why didnt they occur all throughout history?
If shootings and bombings are natural disasters then war must be a natural disaster right? I mean if guns and bombs are natural occurrences then the nuclear bomb must be natural as well?
Do stabbings also fall under "Natural Disasters" because sometimes you can have a knife on your gun, or is that excluded?
What makes shootings and bombings natural? Where in nature did they come from?
Why havent scientists figured out a way to track such natural disasters before they occur, like they do with hurricanes?
[sp]Holy fuck this women is retarded, racism, shootings, and bombings are not fucking natural disasters.[/sp]
what's "some" progress?
how do you end de facto segregation by not seeing colours that doesnt make sense
[QUOTE=thisispain;42172781]what's "some" progress?
how do you end de facto segregation by not seeing colours that doesnt make sense[/QUOTE]
If people stopped grouping people into racial category and everyone was viewed the same then it would be impossible to segregate races because none would exist anymore.
Also you dont need to pretend to sound smart by using words like "de facto segregation " you can just say fucking segregation, you arent being graded.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42172706]i think i made it overtly clear that its myopic to say that because were talking about a greatly impersonal thing
just because someone is living in poverty due to things completely out of their control doesnt mean that the institution itself doesnt favour a certain skin colour[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree that in some way in most countries, whatever institution is in place is being more favourable to a certain race. The problem here is that this isn't necessarily a problem that can be fixed, as it is done in every country in some form.
In reality, it's just logical. If you are trying to appease the majority of your population, you are not going to favour a minority over them, because that is how you create unrest within your country.
In a perfect reality, everyone should be equal, but in [I]our[/I] reality, nobody would want [B]true[/B] equality. I would argue that more or less everyone has some form of an inferiority complex, so to be treated exactly like everyone else could be difficult to bear for many people. There is a reason beyond just money, that people seek positions of power. Human beings are naturally born competitive, just like nearly every other mammalian species.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;42172830]
Also you dont need to pretend to sound smart by using words like "de facto segregation " you can just say fucking segregation, you arent being graded.[/QUOTE]
de facto segregation isnt a word
[QUOTE=thisispain;42172841]de facto segregation isnt a word[/QUOTE]
I said words, look you even quoted it.
its still not a word though
who cares
[editline]a[/editline]
can we all just like, chill or something, this is a no-hate zone
[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;42172838]
In a perfect reality, everyone should be equal, but in [I]our[/I] reality, nobody would want [B]true[/B] equality. I would argue that more or less everyone has some form of an inferiority complex, so to be treated exactly like everyone else could be difficult to bear for many people. There is a reason beyond just money, that people seek positions of power. Human beings are naturally born competitive, just like nearly every other mammalian species.[/QUOTE]
so you say that institutional biases are a form of mammalian supremacy?
i dont agree with that view point because i think that competitiveness is a trait socially acquired, not a natural one. that's just two really different perspectives. even then i still think that tearing down the institution and replacing it with one that has equal participation and equal care towards people of different goals is something worth doing, regardless of nature or nurture specifics
[editline]12th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42172892]who cares
[editline]a[/editline]
can we all just like, chill or something, this is a no-hate zone[/QUOTE]
idk if hoodedsniper cant figure out how words work then im afraid there wont be any chilling so far
[QUOTE=thisispain;42172885]its still not a word though[/QUOTE]
No one said it was a word.
I said words, plural, meaning multiple, jesus dude relax, you win some you lose some.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;42172927]No one said it was a word.
I said words, plural, meaning multiple, jesus dude relax, you win some you lose some.[/QUOTE]
this is exactly what im talking about, if we can't agree on words and a word then there's no reason to even continue its a shame
[QUOTE=thisispain;42172915]so you say that institutional biases are a form of mammalian supremacy?
i dont agree with that view point because i think that competitiveness is a trait socially acquired, not a natural one. that's just two really different perspectives. even then i still think that tearing down the institution and replacing it with one that has equal participation and equal care towards people of different goals is something worth doing, regardless of nature or nurture specifics[/QUOTE]
honestly i think bringing up biological determinism in social issues is a cop-out. we all know nature isn't fair, but there's no reason why we shouldn't be, we are already as "unnatural" as an species can be, we shouldn't be using nature as the framework for our society.
equality is not an easy thing but nothing worth achieving is!
I'm Irish and Polish.
British and Russian check your privilege.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42172935]this is exactly what im talking about, if we can't agree on words and a word then there's no reason to even continue its a shame[/QUOTE]
Its like you gotta be right or something, I said words, how is this so complicated.
You even quoted it, it has the S at the end so I didn't edit it.
Here ill say it in a better way without even using the word "words" so you dont get confused.
You don't need to use an online thesaurus too try and sound smarter on an internet forum when saying segregation, you can just say segregation, it works just as well without the de facto and its less to type.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42172915]so you say that institutional biases are a form of mammalian supremacy?
i dont agree with that view point because i think that [B]competitiveness is a trait socially acquired, not a natural one.[/B] that's just two really different perspectives. even then i still think that tearing down the institution and replacing it with one that has equal participation and equal care towards people of different goals is something worth doing, regardless of nature or nurture specifics[/QUOTE]
I can't say that I necessarily agree with that, just based on my observations of various other animals, the most obvious being Lions, but I agree with Dr. Gestapo that we should [I]chill out[/I]. Otherwise we will be arguing forever.
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