• Can An Omniscient God and Free Will Co-Exist?
    104 replies, posted
No, they can't. Neither can a purely scientific universe and free will. People are gonna have to face it at some point that free will is a comforting delusion.
Yes, they can easily exist together. If I know what you are going to do today, that still doesn't change the fact that you are still making the choices. He just simply knows what your choices are going to be.
All this thread is going to do is start another flame war on religion.
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[QUOTE=sgman91;24544803]Yes, they can easily exist together. If I know what you are going to do today, that still doesn't change the fact that you are still making the choices. He just simply knows what your choices are going to be.[/QUOTE] If it's already been determined what you're going to choose before even you know it how is it your choice?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;24540036]Almost right however, if the god knows exactly what you're going to do in your entire life (by your own choices) whatever you do you'll always follow the path the god has foreseen. Example: It's like walking in darkness and no matter how many times you change the direction you always follow the path as it's been laid exactly where you're going walk. If the god knows what you're going to do despite of your choices it means the future is set and you're not going to avoid it. (Unless you could see a point of the road somehow, then you'd be able to change and avoid the former road since that point)[/QUOTE] In the darkness YOU are still making the choices by yourself and therefore have freewill. Freewill: made or done freely or of one's own accord; voluntary: a freewill contribution to a political fund. The direction that you would go in the darkness was completely of your own accord and was completely voluntary. [editline]09:48AM[/editline] [QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;24544858]If it's already been determined what you're going to choose before even you know it how is it your choice?[/QUOTE] If I give you two doors, but I already know which one your going to choose. So I lock the one you aren't going to choose. This makes it so you really only have one choice, but you don't know that. I let you into the room and tell you to choose a door. You of course choose the unlocked one. I would say that you had complete freewill because there was no compelling force making you pick that door. I just knew beforehand.
[QUOTE=sgman91;24544894]If I give you two doors, but I already know which one your going to choice. So I lock the one you aren't going to choose. This makes it so you really only have one choice, but you don't know that. I let you into the room and tell you to choose a door. You of course choose the unlocked one. I would say that you had complete freewill because there was no compelling force making you pick that door. I just knew beforehand.[/QUOTE] The compelling force is there, it's just not as obvious as gravity or someone pushing you through the correct door. The human mind is nothing but a complex biological stimulus-response mechanism. You take in information, your brain interprets it based on its physical state, and controls your muscles into doing something, e.g. opening the door. Nothing but physical laws come into play.
If we are going to have a discussion about freewill I would think that we would have to have the axiom of freewill being possible in the first place... if you going to just say that we might as well stop here. The point is to see if omniscience and freewill can exist at the same time... not to argue consciousness.
[QUOTE=sgman91;24545084]If we are going to have a discussion about freewill I would think that we would have to have the axiom of freewill being possible in the first place... if you going to just say that we might as well stop here. The point is to see if omniscience and freewill can exist at the same time... not to argue consciousness.[/QUOTE] That doesn't make sense. We have to accept that free will can exist so that we can argue if it can exist?
We have to accept that its possible in a biological/physical sense in order to find out if its compatible with omniscience. I didn't say that we have to accept that it exists... but that its possible.
Omniscience implies a deterministic future and no free will. Arguing that they're compatible is basically arguing that free will and fate are compatible. They're complete opposites.
But free will is impossible/non-existent, surely? If you have the same initial conditions and the same laws of physics, the same thing will happen.
Yes, but apparently we have have to assume it exists so we can argue if it's compatible with another likely impossible thing. This is like arguing if a chimera or a manticore would win in a fight.
Free will is existent if there is an omniscient God, because you aren't being forced to do anything. I have the power to post this reply, or not post it. I'm not being forced to post it. Just think about it like this: God knows you and your personality so well, that whenever you have to make a choice, he knows which choice you're going to make.
[QUOTE=sgman91;24544894]In the darkness YOU are still making the choices by yourself and therefore have freewill. Freewill: made or done freely or of one's own accord; voluntary: a freewill contribution to a political fund. The direction that you would go in the darkness was completely of your own accord and was completely voluntary. [/QUOTE] You've just repeated a part of what I've said and didn't understand the rest.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;24545265]Omniscience implies a deterministic future and no free will. Arguing that they're compatible is basically arguing that free will and fate are compatible. They're complete opposites.[/QUOTE] If I know what choice your going to make... you still have to MAKE that choice. I don't see how they aren't compatible. So far your argument is, "No, they can't be compatible because they can't." You haven't given any reasoning behind it at all. Can you explain it a bit better or at least respond to my statements instead of just ignoring them.
I'm going to ignore the god part, and say this, only if quantum laws apply to the human brain (which is quite plausible) does free will exist.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;24545466]You've just repeated a part of what I've said and didn't understand the rest.[/QUOTE] Are you trying to sounds smart? If you think I didn't understand it than tell me what I didn't understand. It doesn't help anything to just throw out a statement like that.
[QUOTE=sgman91;24545502]If I know what choice your going to make... you still have to MAKE that choice. I don't see how they aren't compatible. So far your argument is, "No, they can't be compatible because they can't." You haven't given any reasoning behind it at all. Can you explain it a bit better or at least respond to my statements instead of just ignoring them.[/QUOTE] You're not making a choice if it's already determined what you're going to do. [editline]01:36PM[/editline] I see what you're arguing but it's incorrect. Choice and free will imply an ability to affect the outcome of things outside of any sort of influence but if it's already known what you're going to do, you can't escape it. It's predetermined and you have no say in the matter.
[QUOTE=MegaJohnny;24545361]If you have the same initial conditions and the same laws of physics, the same thing will happen.[/QUOTE] Nope. Like I posted earlier, based on quantum mechanics, some small scale events are truly random. For example, when waiting for an unstable atom to decay, we don't know the time it takes for it to decay. We can predict the probability for it to decay for a given time. So, if we have two of these atoms (same initial conditions), they can still decay at different times (different results).
You can think "Well you still have to choose it" but there is no choice anymore. As soon as someone knows all "choices" that will be made what will happen is predestined. The choice you seem to have is an illusion.
[QUOTE=Alcapwne;24545415]Free will is existent if there is an omniscient God, because you aren't being forced to do anything. I have the power to post this reply, or not post it. I'm not being forced to post it. Just think about it like this: God knows you and your personality so well, that whenever you have to make a choice, he knows which choice you're going to make.[/QUOTE] But God knew you posted it before you posted it. Therefore you cannot choose any other option or God would not be omniscient, as he got it wrong.
Not to mention that god is also omnipotent. He made everything with full knowledge of what would happen and claims you have free will. Ultimate contradiction.
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[QUOTE=sgman91;24544894]In the darkness YOU are still making the choices by yourself and therefore have freewill. Freewill: made or done freely or of one's own accord; voluntary: a freewill contribution to a political fund. The direction that you would go in the darkness was completely of your own accord and was completely voluntary. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=sgman91;24545549]Are you trying to sounds smart? If you think I didn't understand it than tell me what I didn't understand. It doesn't help anything to just throw out a statement like that.[/QUOTE] You are going to choose where you are going but anywhere you go, you will still follow the path. That is because the god knows all the decisions you're going to make. The path is set. You're following it by your own free will, yes, but you cannot divert from it. You're going to go along the road the god has foreseen. Illusion of free will.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;24546093]Not to mention that god is also omnipotent. He made everything with full knowledge of what would happen and claims you have free will. Ultimate contradiction.[/QUOTE] The ultimate asshole too, creating a place of everlasting torture and designing the universe specifically so billions of people are sent to it simply because they didn't accept his son (who is also himself somehow) as their savior!
(i'm trying to view it by a religious point of view, tho i'm not religious nor believer) Most of the times, if we fail we're "walking away from the path that leads to him" That actually HAS a logic. it's like.. He draws a destiny for everyone of us (that could be the most correct one, by the christian point of view) but then it's up to us to follow that path.. or not. Some path could still lead to Him, and some may not. This logic is still a failure, as i can't explain then WHY punish with eternal damnation the ones who decides to write their own path.. Meh, christian logic is always contradictory.
i say sure
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;24546601]You are going to choose where you are going but anywhere you go, you will still follow the path. That is because the god knows all the decisions you're going to make. The path is set. You're following it by your own free will, yes, but you cannot divert from it. You're going to go along the road the god has foreseen. Illusion of free will.[/QUOTE] You just made my point, "You're following it by your own free will." You say you can't divert from it... but you also never have the desire to divert from it. The only reason you can't divert is because that isn't your choice, not because your being forced down any path. Free will is the ability to make whatever choice you desire. (Do you disagree with this definition?)
god doesn't exist and freewill doesn't exist. now did i answer your question?
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