[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;24550723]god doesn't exist and freewill doesn't exist. now did i answer your question?[/QUOTE]
If you aren't going to add to the discussion I would politely ask you to refrain from posting.
[QUOTE=sgman91;24550758]If you aren't going to add to the discussion I would politely ask you to refrain from posting.[/QUOTE]
but i kinda did answer your question. its like saying what color is the dress that the pope wears and i would say but the pope doesnt wear a dress.
now let me explain why freewill doesn't exist.
there are 2 things that control how we act the 1rst one is are genes and these do the basic things like make us like sex, feel pain, like food, have legs ect. now the 2nd is environmental which controls how you act, feel, what you do, what religion you are in, what movies you like, if you are violent, if you cheat, if you are smart, and everything else.
so when someone does something its them reacting to there genes and envirnment
now on to if god would have free will. well he would also have someway of making decisions and that would base on how he acts and what he does so it would not really be free will either
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;24550807]but i kinda did answer your question. its like saying what color is the dress that the pope wears and i would say but the pope doesnt wear a dress[/QUOTE]
This is a philosophical discussion of possibility, not of existence.
It would be like someone asking, "What would happen if the sun exploded?" and you answer, "The sun didn't explode." Its not about whether freewill or God exist, but whether omniscience and freewill are contradictory.
[QUOTE=sgman91;24550841]This is a philosophical discussion of possibility, not of existence.
It would be like someone asking, "What would happen if the sun exploded?" and you answer, "The sun didn't explode." Its not about whether freewill or God exist, but whether omniscience and freewill are contradictory.[/QUOTE]
fine I changed my post and answered your question
I would think it depends on your definition of free will. To me, free will means that there are no forces beyond my comprehension of the physical universe hindering my decision-making process. IE, only physical factors in the universe affect me - there is no supernatural intervention, or anything of the sort.
If this is the definition of free will you work off of, then I can't see why you [b]couldn't[/b] have an omniscient deity and free will coexisting. Omniscient simply means all-[b]knowing[/b]. It doesn't mean you act on it.
I can [b]know[/b] that a friend, in a drunken rage, grabbed a shotgun and went over to his ex's house to kill her. I can [b]know[/b] that a father is raping his daughter every night. I can [b]know[/b] that the homeless man that sits along the highway every day doesn't have a stable house to live in.
Me knowing all of this doesn't affect any of it, though. Likewise, a deity knowing everything I have ever done or will ever do would not affect me in any way, so long as he doesn't act on it.
The way I see it, as long as he doesn't tell me what he sees me doing in the future, my free will does not exist for him and him alone - for me, and everyone else, my free will is absolute.
I'm sure there are a lot of holes in my logic. Truth be told, I don't think on it, because I don't care. If I [b]do[/b] have free will, cool. If I don't, oh well. Either way, I'll never know what would happen if I went down the paths I didn't take. It's kinda like choosing how you get killed instantly: a shotgun blast to the head, or a .50-caliber bullet through the head. Either way, you're dead instantly.
[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;24551151]I would think it depends on your definition of free will. To me, free will means that there are no forces beyond my comprehension of the physical universe hindering my decision-making process. IE, only physical factors in the universe affect me - there is no supernatural intervention, or anything of the sort.
If this is the definition of free will you work off of, then I can't see why you [b]couldn't[/b] have an omniscient deity and free will coexisting. Omniscient simply means all-[b]knowing[/b]. It doesn't mean you act on it.
I can [b]know[/b] that a friend, in a drunken rage, grabbed a shotgun and went over to his ex's house to kill her. I can [b]know[/b] that a father is raping his daughter every night. I can [b]know[/b] that the homeless man that sits along the highway every day doesn't have a stable house to live in.
Me knowing all of this doesn't affect any of it, though. Likewise, a deity knowing everything I have ever done or will ever do would not affect me in any way, so long as he doesn't act on it.
The way I see it, as long as he doesn't tell me what he sees me doing in the future, my free will does not exist for him and him alone - for me, and everyone else, my free will is absolute.[/QUOTE]
that makes god seem like a butt hole
If God is truly completely omniscient, then doesn't that mean he is the past, the present, and the future? So he's always at his beginning and always at his ending (assuming you believe that he will eventually come to an end), which means he wouldn't exist and would exist at the same time.
If God wants to be all good little kiddies and we don't have free will why do we have criminals?
[QUOTE=Mobon1;24551834]If God wants to be all good little kiddies and we have free will why do we have criminals?[/QUOTE]
Free will doesn't necessarily mean you don't get in trouble it just means you can do what you want without a higher power forcing you from doing that, being a criminal, you would still have the free will to commit the crime in the first place.
[QUOTE=Takeout;24552009]Free will doesn't necessarily mean you don't get in trouble it just means you can do what you want without a higher power forcing you from doing that, being a criminal, you would still have the free will to commit the crime in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Whoops I meant "don't have free will."
Just because "god" is all knowing, doesn't remove free will.
It's whether he interferes or not. He knows your going to walk out of your house at 9am but it's still your choice to do it. If he [U]made[/U] you do it, then sure free will wouldn't exist.
Or does this concern a different paradox? Like the idea that if he KNOWS it, he somewho influences it?
[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;24551151]I would think it depends on your definition of free will. To me, free will means that there are no forces beyond my comprehension of the physical universe hindering my decision-making process. IE, only physical factors in the universe affect me - there is no supernatural intervention, or anything of the sort.
If this is the definition of free will you work off of, then I can't see why you [b]couldn't[/b] have an omniscient deity and free will coexisting. Omniscient simply means all-[b]knowing[/b]. It doesn't mean you act on it.
I can [b]know[/b] that a friend, in a drunken rage, grabbed a shotgun and went over to his ex's house to kill her. I can [b]know[/b] that a father is raping his daughter every night. I can [b]know[/b] that the homeless man that sits along the highway every day doesn't have a stable house to live in.
Me knowing all of this doesn't affect any of it, though. Likewise, a deity knowing everything I have ever done or will ever do would not affect me in any way, so long as he doesn't act on it.
The way I see it, as long as he doesn't tell me what he sees me doing in the future, my free will does not exist for him and him alone - for me, and everyone else, my free will is absolute.
I'm sure there are a lot of holes in my logic. Truth be told, I don't think on it, because I don't care. If I [b]do[/b] have free will, cool. If I don't, oh well. Either way, I'll never know what would happen if I went down the paths I didn't take. It's kinda like choosing how you get killed instantly: a shotgun blast to the head, or a .50-caliber bullet through the head. Either way, you're dead instantly.[/QUOTE]
I think the point is that for him to KNOW it, he influences it by knowing. Like, how would he know without it being somehow under his control. Because of course, with knowing and being omnipitent he must be able to see the future, but surely him knowing the future must somehow effect how it would turn out?
Fuck this hurts to try and rationalise it.
[QUOTE=sgman91;24550634]You just made my point, "You're following it by your own free will." You say you can't divert from it... but you also never have the desire to divert from it. The only reason you can't divert is because that isn't your choice, not because your being forced down any path.[/QUOTE]
If I can't divert from the path (as you admitted) my future is set. If my whole life is has already been planned I cannot make a choice that will divert me from the path. Meaning all the choices have already been planned, they are just waiting to be played, like on a tape.
[QUOTE=sgman91;24550634]
Free will is the ability to make whatever choice you desire. (Do you disagree with this definition?)[/QUOTE]
Free will is the ability to choose, you can't choose any other fate than the one planned for you.
Following the path without the ability to divert from it is an illusion of free will.
Example: God didn't have to put Adam and Eve in Eden to see what they're going to do. He already knew that they are going to eat the apple. They did eat it because of the circumstances they were put in. The all-knowing God knew that if he would make different "scenario" in which the outcome of the test would be that they didn't eat the apple, then the choice is up to God which "scenario" (and consequences) to implement.
Think of people as machines programmed to fulfill their destiny not by coercing them to fulfill it but making them want (choose) to fulfill it, while they cannot escape their program. Their "choices" are not up to them, but to the one who's implementing them in a scenario, because all the "choices" will depend on the scenario they are in.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVr_MxNihkc[/media]
A pretty interesting clip on this topic.
"God will guide you!"
"God helps those who help themselves!"
:psyduck:
[QUOTE=rapperkid04;24553775][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVr_MxNihkc[/media]
A pretty interesting clip on this topic.[/QUOTE]
we already have an answer to free will and religion cant solve a question if the answer was in the anus of a child (that was a joke about the preachers)
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;24543930]No, they can't. Neither can a purely scientific universe and free will.
People are gonna have to face it at some point that free will is a comforting delusion.[/QUOTE]
I don't think the common man will ever get smart enough to grasp that concept.
[QUOTE=Dr. Fishtastic;24554078]"God will guide you!"
"God helps those who help themselves!"
:psyduck:[/QUOTE]
I take a theology class. We were supposed to reenact an argument that happened in the Bible using quotes from the Bible as our facts.
You would not BELIEVE the amount of contradictory things that are in the Bible.
think about the matrix, the second specifically. The oracle chick says some thing along the lines of "We already made the choices we are going to make, we just try to understand why we make them."
[sp]so deep[/sp]
[editline]06:29PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rubs10;24554288]
I take a theology class. We were supposed to reenact an argument that happened in the Bible using quotes from the Bible as our facts.
You would not BELIEVE the amount of contradictory things that are in the Bible.[/QUOTE]
I can, which is why i really doubt most of the christian religion.
The way I see it, God having Omniscience doesn't contradict with having free will, if you believe in alternate time lines.
Here's where thing get insane. If for each choice an alternate time line is created for the choices not made, then you've chosen to follow the time line out of the many available to you. And if God is Omniscient, then he would know the result of each choice and the multiple time lines.
This is part of the reason I am Atheist.
[QUOTE=DrBreen;24539754]I thought the Illuminati were just a bunch of scientists and philosophers that opposed church in the inquisition times.
They are heroes.
I don't know about today's Illuminati tho[/QUOTE]
they choose yer job, how many kids you have, and in mid september the UBV-76 dead mans switch will activate and [sp]china[/sp] will detonate nuclear weapons in USA because they want to concor the world
jesus told me this will happen
I don't understand. If I know that someone is going to take the apple off the table I still know that they have the choice to grab the banana instead. They're just plain going to take the apple.
Well I suppose that if time were not linear, then yes, it is possible.
I don't think god and democracy can co-exist. Why should all men be controlled by a greater man? Isn't that the reason why Americans had a revolution? So that they wouldn't be controlled by a king?
Can god create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?
[QUOTE=cqbcat;24560650]I don't think god and democracy can co-exist. Why should all men be controlled by a greater man? Isn't that the reason why Americans had a revolution? So that they wouldn't be controlled by a king?[/QUOTE]
yea we should go kill god and make a democracy about the the universe should be run
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;24560738]yea we should go kill god and make a democracy about the the universe should be run[/QUOTE]
Well since the God of the bible doesnt exist and most likely no god exists, id say that leaves the Universe pretty much open for whoever has the technology to take over.
[QUOTE=superdinoman;24560758]Well since the God of the bible doesnt exist and most likely no god exists, id say that leaves the Universe pretty much open for whoever has the technology to take over.[/QUOTE]
i would agree and i would also say that because god doesnt exist this thread is kinda pointless
[QUOTE=Nerdrage;24539390]It does
google
google knows all
google is everywhere
and sooner or later, google will think for itself.[/QUOTE]
Google owns so many servers. Imagine if the google engine became omniscient and refused to serve people. There goes the internet.
[QUOTE=Nerdrage;24539390]It does
google
google knows all
google is everywhere
and sooner or later, google will think for itself.[/QUOTE]
Google is our new Lord and Master. Whoever does not follow the laws of Google shall be eliminated.
ITT: People don't understand anything about Christianity or an all-powerful, all-knowing God.
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