[QUOTE=wauterboi;49033741]I don't demonize them as apathetic, and in fact I feel bad for them. I don't like the reality of the situation.
[editline]2nd November 2015[/editline]
Care to name a few? I'm open to looking at a counter-argument.[/QUOTE]
The new Tomb Raider games, Portal, that new Detroit game coming out, the upcoming game Horizon: Zero Dawn (the robot dinosaur hunter game), Hellblade (another PS4 exclusive), Recore (the xbox one game with the robot dog), etc.
I just looked through the upcoming exclusives top 10 lists and found all of these, not including Tomb Raider or Portal of course. Ironically, the number of big upcoming games with female leads seems to be way higher than the percent of female gamers.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49033741]Care to name a few? I'm open to looking at a counter-argument.[/QUOTE]
With a prominent or exclusive female lead :
Metroid (11 games in the series, all of which have the same female protagonist at the lead)
Tomb Raider (11 games in the series plus 2 coop spin-offs, all of which have the same female protagonist at the lead)
Mirror's Edge (2 games, one of which isn't out yet)
Bayonetta (2 games)
Portal (2 games)
Life is Strange
Shantae
Until Dawn (Half of the playable cast is female)
Resident Evil (RE1, RE2, RE3, Revelations 1 and Revelations 2, Code Veronica X, RE ZERO all have playable female characters, none of which are optional. I'm probably be forgetting a few)
Silent Hill 3
Alien Isolation
Fatal Frame (5 games)
Transistor
Child of Light
Assassin's Creed Liberation (also AC Chronicles China)
Eternal Darkness (You swap characters a lot but the core protagonist is female)
The Walking Dead Season Two
Remember Me
Bioshock Infinite Burial At Sea Part Two
Lollipop Chainsaw
As a choice of lead (usually through character customization) :
The Elder Scrolls (5 core games)
Fallout (5 core games)
Saints Row (since 2)
Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Bloodborne (total of 5 games)
Mass Effect (3 games)
Star Wars KOTOR (protagonist of the second game is confirmed to be female in the canon)
Dishonored 2
Assassin's Creed Syndicate
Borderlands (3 games)
Just to name a few.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49033741]
Care to name a few? I'm open to looking at a counter-argument.[/QUOTE]
This can't be a legitimate question...
Do you play games?
I would estimate that over 50% of games currently made these days have either a strong female protagonist or female playable characters from a selection of your choice of characters.
There shouldn't have to be a counter argument because there is not argument to stand on in the first place!
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49033741]
Care to name a few? I'm open to looking at a counter-argument.[/QUOTE]
how about 400+ games?
[url]http://pastebin.com/zUnN9DG8[/url]
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49032186]And in general, I don't understand why multiplayer games aren't split half-and-half. Left 4 Dead 1 and 2? 3 guys, 1 girl. Street Fighter V? 10 guys, 5 girls. Super Smash Bros (which epitomizes Nintendo franchises)? 32 guys, 10 girls (not including non-applicable characters). Mario Party 10? 6 guys, 4 girls (not including non-applicable characters). Team Fortress 2? 9 guys, or 8 and one unknown if you want to be pedantic. Call of Duty and Battlefield? For the most part, all dudes up until recently (which is an awesome change). The ones that I feel are becoming more equal from a quick glance are MOBA's, which is cool because it's an ever-growing genre.[/QUOTE]
Your examples or Street Fighter, Super Smash Bros and Team Fortress aren't particularly relevant in my opinion. You choose those characters not because of their gender or because how they look, but how they are mechanically. This to me represents they right way to go; it really doesn't matter what a character looks like, but how they play and how you can accurately embody that play style which resonates with you, rather than how they look. To me, that is one of the beautiful things of these games, you embody a characters mechanics first, and how they look second.
I mean I play JigglyPuff in Smash because I like how the mechanics of that character feel and those mechanics sit well with me. I play the sniper in TF2 because I like taking a step back and getting people from afar. In SF4 I like playing as el fuerte because how he plays really suits my want to be a fast SF character. In multiplayer games which are mechanically tight such as a fighting game and arena shooters, it really doesn't matter what you look like, it's about how a character plays.
Mario Party 6 guys 4 girls is even and not worth mentioning as a "why is it not 50/50", seems unnecessarily picky and makes the argument seem less tight. In L4D the genders are probably handled in the best way possible; they're literally never mentioned (?). Everyone's just a friend and just trying to survive. Gender doesn't play a role because it isn't relevant to these 4 humans trying to survive.
In the more mechanically generic games like Call of Duty and Battlefield, where your customisations matters more to the player to make them more unique then sure, I don't know why it took so long.
[QUOTE=Wii60;49034367]how about 400+ games?
[url]http://pastebin.com/zUnN9DG8[/url][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;49034358]This can't be a legitimate question...
Do you play games?
I would estimate that over 50% of games currently made these days have either a strong female protagonist or female playable characters from a selection of your choice of characters.
There shouldn't have to be a counter argument because there is not argument to stand on in the first place![/QUOTE]
I do play games. I'm probing people's brains to see what they think a good video game is.
Here's what my friend thought:
[quote]Yes, it's a list of 400 games with female protagonists. I wonder how many of them are good representations though? As there's stuff like "Super Princess Peach" on there, wherein Peach in all her pink glory defeats bad guys with her emotions, such as getting sad and crying. Ms.Pac-Man is on this list too, a yellow disc with a bow on it.
The next question I would have is: In how many of these is the female protagonist the only one, and if not, the primary choice / main protagonist? As I see ones where I know that's not the case. They're the secondary option or someone you play as for a small portion of the game, or "can" play as.
Next would be, how many video games are there in existence and what percentage of that is this list? Probably not much, I bet, especially if you prune it down a bit with the aforementioned criteria.
Also, given the nature of this list. It's version 3. It's /v/ - It seems to me like they put in a lot of effort to come up with 400. My final question would be: That's all? Not "wow, so many!"
"JEEZ, when will you guys just be happy with your sliver of pie! I mean, it's a whoooooole sliver! Just look at it! It's not half, but it's like, a lot though, I mean, I can't give you more than that, for all sorts of reasons I like to tell myself to not think about it."
Also on this list I see, there's stuff like Touhou games. LOOK AT THESE COOL FEMALE PROTAGONISTS: [url]http://kiiragames.weebly.com/uploads/2/7/7/2/27724833/3551954_orig.jpg[/url] FUCK, CANT YOU JUST BE HAPPY!?!?[/quote]
He's a lot more vocal about it. I'd also add that Lollipop Chainsaw is a pretty big masculine fantasy. Again - nothing wrong with sex, but when women can't get a fair portrayal in video games it's not really fair. Also think the Bioshock Infinite DLC example kind of sucks because it's DLC - not the main game. And regardless of the number of video games female protagonists appear in, is this then an indication to stop? Is that enough? What's wrong with representation of women in video games, and what's wrong with [I]more[/I] representation in video games? What's wrong with [I]better[/I] representation in video games? Why is it that advocating for this kind of thing is grounds for a lot of moaning and groaning? I don't know why the whole female representation thing is inherently a negative thing for people, because in my mind it's the same as saying, "Hey, let's try to fairly depict black people." "Hey, let's get more black people involved in things." "Hey, let's try to give black people a chance to have a story." "Hey, let's show the world that we can look up to black people." "Hey, let's create a black character that is in league with the other people."
I'm not saying that to completely dumb down the fact that there are some games on that list that are really cool, and some of my favorites. Mirror's Edge for example is a solid game and a solid franchise - I think a lot of people legitimately enjoy the series too. What's wrong for asking for a little more of that over more genres with more companies with more characters? How about a little bit less of this - you know - with some stuff that isn't showing up in that list of 400 games:
[t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/965202/Facepunch/female_representation/DC-morgan.jpg[/t][t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/965202/Facepunch/female_representation/OM-samus.png[/t][t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/965202/Facepunch/female_representation/SC5-elysium.jpg[/t]
How about less tropes? Here's (unfortunately) a meme that explains something that I feel is really lame:
[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/965202/Facepunch/female_representation/rpg_armor_logic.jpg[/img]
Why do things like that have to be unequal? What is the purpose? It's not just that game either, it's a ton of them. [url=http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/]There's an entire Tumblr devoted to analyzing the weird clothing choices in media. (and fixing them)[/url]
[t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/5091f3d0883d124e141f4aee75a7fb0f/tumblr_nr2oe2iBbc1s9p45oo1_500.jpg[/t][t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/ff6f0a3dec8d4649fcc577cc3caaec8e/tumblr_inline_nqns8mLlQJ1rhlhi0_500.png[/t][t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/0094f200c0ed1f1480c782668894a94d/tumblr_nqm25ctIRI1s9p45oo2_500.jpg[/t][t]http://41.media.tumblr.com/10601ffaf90ab4261ac9cd7eef7100c3/tumblr_nqgjo07Icz1s9p45oo1_500.png[/t][t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/bafc6529f14e7dc1c8ebe77126e7ab76/tumblr_nqcno7XlaQ1s9p45oo3_500.jpg[/t][t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8b513e7eac45fa84507a5754c5286f5/tumblr_nq3zrc8CRD1s9p45oo2_500.jpg[/t][t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/d3d930065661b925713d71cfb2547725/tumblr_nq35244VnX1s9p45oo2_500.jpg[/t][t]http://36.media.tumblr.com/58b9d9a4313dfe521a507373533341d4/tumblr_nq1ogekoWy1s9p45oo1_500.jpg[/t][t]http://41.media.tumblr.com/bec58ebef4ce8e656c6448805167f18f/tumblr_nq1k8zaqHr1s9p45oo1_500.jpg[/t][t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/d22ed471b3414b0aaa544f6c703d8890/tumblr_no5xe5P9MN1s9p45oo2_500.jpg[/t][t]http://41.media.tumblr.com/03b5af3a78823a6e4ea42f8cfaf8c81a/tumblr_mz7005VfTn1r34y4ho1_500.png[/t][t]http://41.media.tumblr.com/bfe6bb34a370cb3ddc30f0f611f7f60b/tumblr_mzpi0qeLfu1s9p45oo1_500.jpg[/t]
Compare these choices to actual sensible armor:
[t]http://41.media.tumblr.com/847ac33e3b6adb106afde3eea2814218/tumblr_mn07fybjWv1s9m801o3_1280.jpg[/t]
For every good thing that's happening with women in video games (and every good thing I praise), there's a ton of extra problems. I support the new push to get women into video games, but that doesn't mean it's over. Simply adding women doesn't add anything - they have to be good, important depictions that aren't just for eye-candy or a token side-character. And just because there are people that break the mold doesn't mean no further change is needed, because we need more - we need a better ratio of games that are great with women in them and everything else.
[editline]2nd November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49033457][B]I don't think most stories start from a place of "now what minorities aren't represented in media". And if they do they're probably bad.[/B]
I think inspiration comes from somewhere a bit more ethereal than that. You make what you feel, not what you think you should make. You're bringing social responsibility and self consciousness into a place where they don't belong.
Of course it would seem harmless to you, you aren't the one making things.[/QUOTE]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1454029/]The Help[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2481238/]Pussy Riot: A Punk Prayer[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2024544/]12 Years a Slave[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104694/]A League of Their Own[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056592/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2]To Kill a Mockingbird[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1014759/]Alice in Wonderland (2010)[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443453/?ref_=nv_sr_1]Borat[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097239/]Driving Miss Daisy[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0929632/]Precious[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088939/]The Color Purple[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116410/?ref_=nv_sr_1]Ghosts of Mississipi[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139654/]Training Day[/url]
These movies are totally about minorities without being pandering - they're heartfelt approaches from all kinds of different angles that represents someone's truest thoughts about society. Suggesting that stories that focus on the unheard minorities usually end up bad is something that can very easily be racist. I'm not willing to make that leap for you, obviously, because I think you meant something else and aren't intentionally trying to be mean, but there's plenty of awesome and important stories that focus on the non-represented minority.
And dude, if they're not being represented well in the media, maybe someone should step up and represent them well in the media. Having the mentality that trying to start from the misrepresentation and oppression of people doesn't end well and encouraging an artistic landscape that doesn't investigate things like women's issues and racial tensions creates a cyclical problem.
[editline]2nd November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=icemaz;49034496]In L4D the genders are probably handled in the best way possible; they're literally never mentioned (?). Everyone's just a friend and just trying to survive. Gender doesn't play a role because it isn't relevant to these 4 humans trying to survive.[/QUOTE]
So if gender doesn't matter, why not do two guys and two girls? What is the incentive for going with three guys and one girl if gender doesn't matter?
Quite honestly i don't know what you're really trying to accomplish here.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]
For every good thing that's happening with women in video games (and every good thing I praise), there's a ton of extra problems. I support the new push to get women into video games, but that doesn't mean it's over. Simply adding women doesn't add anything - they have to be good, important depictions that aren't just for eye-candy or a token side-character. And just because there are people that break the mold doesn't mean no further change is needed, because we need more - we need a better ratio of games that are great with women in them and everything else.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49006919]Well no. Sexualizing females for male audiences is not sexist. Sexualizing male characters for female audiences isn't sexist either. Not to mention gay audiences, etc.
Stop demonizing sex in the name of being progressive.[/QUOTE]
Plenty of games without oversexualized female characters exist as previously mentioned in this thread. However, here is something you don't seem to understand.
You don't sexualize men by putting them in a Bikini. Aryan HY Poster children/Korean idols that are strong/professional looking is what gets people interested.
[t]http://archeage-fashion.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2015/01/archeage-exiled-wizard-cloth-armor-set-male-2.jpg[/t][IMG]https://xannziee.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/4tjuvkil.jpg?w=350&h=200&crop=1[/IMG]
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]Why do things like that have to be unequal? What is the purpose? It's not just that game either, it's a ton of them. [url=http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/]There's an entire Tumblr devoted to analyzing the weird clothing choices in media. (and fixing them)[/url][/quote]
Pretty pathetic tbh, going full Puritanism in the name of protecting women from exploitation. Disconnected from reality too when you consider actual real life fashion loves showing off tits and skin.
[quote]For every good thing that's happening with women in video games (and every good thing I praise), there's a ton of extra problems. I support the new push to get women into video games, but that doesn't mean it's over. Simply adding women doesn't add anything - they have to be good, important depictions that aren't just for eye-candy or a token side-character. And just because there are people that break the mold doesn't mean no further change is needed, because we need more - we need a better ratio of games that are great with women in them and everything else.[/quote]
Is that all you got? A bunch of depictions in obvious schlock and that same attitude of female sexuality being a "problem"? If you're expecting Oscar winning performances from every woman in gaming then you're going to find Sturgeon's law is a bitch and there's always going to be more trash out there than things you approve of.
Also it's a pretty shit double standard when you've got men dressed in a loincloth and a few bones just as prominently. Trash will be trash, don't act like women somehow got the short straw.
[quote]These movies are totally about minorities without being pandering - they're heartfelt approaches from all kinds of different angles that represents someone's truest thoughts about society. Suggesting that stories that focus on the unheard minorities usually end up bad is something that can very easily be racist. I'm not willing to make that leap for you, obviously, because I think you meant something else and aren't intentionally trying to be mean, but there's plenty of awesome and important stories that focus on the non-represented minority.
And dude, if they're not being represented well in the media, maybe someone should step up and represent them well in the media. Having the mentality that trying to start from the misrepresentation and oppression of people doesn't end well and encouraging an artistic landscape that doesn't investigate things like women's issues and racial tensions creates a cyclical problem.[/quote]
[url]http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1608383/[/url]
Whoops, so much for all those good movies we've got some "problems" here.
[quote]So if gender doesn't matter, why not do two guys and two girls? What is the incentive for going with three guys and one girl if gender doesn't matter?[/QUOTE]
I've never been able to tell whether this is a contradiction arguing that it doesn't matter either way so it should be your way, or if it's perfectly suited to want something that doesn't matter to align with views that don't matter.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]Lots of stuff[/quote]
Oh boy here we go.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]I'd also add that Lollipop Chainsaw is a pretty big masculine fantasy. Again - nothing wrong with sex, but when women can't get a fair portrayal in video games it's not really fair.[/quote]
Lollipop Chainsaw is a corny, overly cheesy hommage to zombie flicks as seen by a crazy Japanese developer who's done a lot of weird shit in his video games. Calling it a masculine fantasy is idiotic, the girl carries her boyfriend (who's nothing but a head) on her belt and carries around a huge ass chainsaw. Is the character thought out and complex ? No. Does she need to be ? Not even. Also if you're going to mention your friends for help then I may as well do the same and mention that the only person I know IRL that liked Lollipop Chainsaw was a girl - and she loves anything that has to do with fan service, bikinis, women with big breasts and other such things because she finds it fun, not harmful or dangerous.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]Also think the Bioshock Infinite DLC example kind of sucks because it's DLC - not the main game.[/QUOTE]
It's an extension of the main game that follows the most important character of the entire story (counting both main game and DLC). Throughout the course of the main game, Elizabeth drastically evolves as a character. She starts as an innocent, optimistic and daydreaming young woman with no experience of the outside world, and grows up as the game progresses, maturing up and becoming a considerably stronger individual than she was at first - something symbollically represented halfway through by cutting off her hair and wearing a more grown-up outfit after killing a life to save another. In the DLC, that character is mostly accomplished and has now transitioned to being the player-controller protagonist, but it's only a natural extension of the story told in the main game. It being DLC is irrelevant to its importance for the story.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]And regardless of the number of video games female protagonists appear in, is this then an indication to stop? Is that enough? What's wrong with representation of women in video games, and what's wrong with [I]more[/I] representation in video games? What's wrong with [I]better[/I] representation in video games? Why is it that advocating for this kind of thing is grounds for a lot of moaning and groaning? I don't know why the whole female representation thing is inherently a negative thing for people, because in my mind it's the same as saying, "Hey, let's try to fairly depict black people." "Hey, let's get more black people involved in things." "Hey, let's try to give black people a chance to have a story." "Hey, let's show the world that we can look up to black people." "Hey, let's create a black character that is in league with the other people."[/quote]
Nobody argued that there should be less representation or that the representation of women or minorities was sufficient - people simply argued that it wasn't nearly as bad as people like Sarkeesian claimed it was, and that the current natural progression of the medium towards this inclusivity is brought up by competent writers and programmers doing their job rather than a couple of angry feminists groaning on twitter and on videos because they feel like they, as individusl, aren't catered to enough by the industry as a whole.
Moreover, simply throwing more characters of a minority or certain sex within a game does not mean you'll positively influence the industry if the writing doesn't follow - if the writing is bad, then at best that character will have no worthwhile influence on the industry. At worst, you'll cause a ruckus by writing a horrible character that outright brought the quality of your game down. People also argue that a good character isn't good because of their minority or gender, they're good because they're well written and relatable thanks to this writing.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]I'm not saying that to completely dumb down the fact that there are some games on that list that are really cool, and some of my favorites. Mirror's Edge for example is a solid game and a solid franchise - I think a lot of people legitimately enjoy the series too. What's wrong for asking for a little more of that over more genres with more companies with more characters? How about a little bit less of this - you know - with some stuff that isn't showing up in that list of 400 games:
[t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/965202/Facepunch/female_representation/DC-morgan.jpg[/t][t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/965202/Facepunch/female_representation/OM-samus.png[/t][t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/965202/Facepunch/female_representation/SC5-elysium.jpg[/t][/quote]
Ignoring the (pretty stupid) fact that you just tried to summarize a list of 400 games with three cherrypicked pictures, let's talk about Samus.
First of all, that picture is from Other M, a game that not a lot of people liked due to the story being bad and in which Samus also appears in standard military fatigues - not to mention her signature armor, in which she's appeared far more frequently than in her zero suit (which barely ever showed up outside of Other M and the smash bros series, and the smash bros series isn't taken care of by the same people whatsoever and their interpretation of the character within that game is irrelevant), and her usual armor is completely neutral with no actual indication of the wearer's gender - something you will later in this post call a good thing, but right now you're ignoring it for the sake of pointing out that this one outfit she wears under the armor is somehow sexist and a poor representation of women.
Also the dragon's crown artist also draws buff as fuck women and men and even drew an orgy of gay dwarves as a response to people calling his stuff sexist. It's an exaggerated art style, nothing wrong with it.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]How about less tropes? Here's a meme (and shame on me for using one of these) that explains something that I feel is really lame:
[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/965202/Facepunch/female_representation/rpg_armor_logic.jpg[/img]
Why do things like that have to be unequal? What is the purpose? It's not just that game either, it's a ton of them. [url=http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/]There's an entire Tumblr devoted to analyzing the weird clothing choices in media. (and fixing them)[/url]
[i]picspicspics[/i]
Compare these choices to actual sensible armor:
[t]http://41.media.tumblr.com/847ac33e3b6adb106afde3eea2814218/tumblr_mn07fybjWv1s9m801o3_1280.jpg[/t][/quote]
Let's start by pointing out that none of the pictures you've picked are actual suits of armor, except the one you picked as a convenient standard.
Second, an outfit doesn't have to be realistically viable and sensible in order to be interesting or well designed. Most of these are acceptable with only a few being stupid, and even then they're just boring designs - I don't understand why you mixed them up with some genuinely good designs like Tifa or Mileena's MKX outfit which is frankly the best outfit she's had in the entire series.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]For every good thing that's happening with women in video games (and every good thing I praise), there's a ton of extra problems. I support the new push to get women into video games, but that doesn't mean it's over. Simply adding women doesn't add anything - they have to be good, important depictions that aren't just for eye-candy or a token side-character. And just because there are people that break the mold doesn't mean no further change is needed, because we need more - we need a better ratio of games that are great with women in them and everything else.[/quote]
And the inclusion of more well written, well designed characters in video games is something that's been occuring naturally over the last three decades. Video Games are a very recent industry that is still progressing regularly and forcing the inclusion of characters just for the sake of inclusiveness isn't going to help it at all. Writers aren't machines that can just shit out good characters on demand, if a writer doesn't feel like they can write a good character that's a woman then they're not going to be able to to no matter how hard you push them.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1454029/]The Help[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2481238/]Pussy Riot: A Punk Prayer[/url] [B]Literal feminist pandering over two stupid women who did something stupid.[/B
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2024544/]12 Years a Slave[/url] [B]Oscar-bait about the exaggerated struggles of a mary sue type character.[/B]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104694/]A League of Their Own[/url] [B]Generic underdog movie where the small guy wins because fighting the power and conventions is a very good way of making your movie successful.[/B]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056592/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2]To Kill a Mockingbird[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1014759/]Alice in Wonderland (2010)[/url] [B]Since when was Tim Burton any good at representing minorities - and what's the link between his weird ass shitty reboot and minorities ?[/B]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443453/?ref_=nv_sr_1]Borat[/url] [B]Bro you're racist as fuck if you think Borat is representative of anything, it's literally a comedy about a made up character, the use of Kazakhstan as Borat's homeland only serves comedic purpose as a practical joke since most people in the US know jack shit about Kazakhstan. The country and its culture has nothing to do with how it's portrayed in Borat.
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097239/]Driving Miss Daisy[/url] [B]Token black guy meets token white lady, it's generic and was actually criticized quite a lot for being rather racist in its depiction of the token carefree smiling black guy.[/b]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0929632/]Precious[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088939/]The Color Purple[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116410/?ref_=nv_sr_1]Ghosts of Mississipi[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139654/]Training Day[/url]
These movies are totally about minorities without being pandering - they're heartfelt approaches from all kinds of different angles that represents someone's truest thoughts about society. Suggesting that stories that focus on the unheard minorities usually end up bad is something that can very easily be racist. I'm not willing to make that leap for you, obviously, because I think you meant something else and aren't intentionally trying to be mean, but there's plenty of awesome and important stories that focus on the non-represented minority.[/quote]
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]And dude, if they're not being represented well in the media, maybe someone should step up and represent them well in the media. Having the mentality that trying to start from the misrepresentation and oppression of people doesn't end well and encouraging an artistic landscape that doesn't investigate things like women's issues and racial tensions creates a cyclical problem.[/quote]
But they [i]are[/i] well represented and the quality of this representation is growing better every month. And it's improved because writers are progressively feeling more and more comfortable in the writing of these characters, not because people randomly pushed them to include more characters in their games.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]So if gender doesn't matter, why not do two guys and two girls? What is the incentive for going with three guys and one girl if gender doesn't matter?[/QUOTE]
Your focus on gender equality is idiotic at best and harmful at worst. The creative freedom of developers and designers should not be limited by a completely arbitrary limit.
And to conclude, remember that Bayonetta was designed by a woman.
I seriously can't understand people who complain about the female characters in dragon's crown
There are two sensibly dressed and reasonably proportioned characters in the entire game, the elf and the wizard respectively. [I]Everyone[/I] else is a super exaggerated cartoon caricature. That's the fucking style of the game.
if you don't like it that's totally fine but it is in no way shape or form sexist
Hey wauterboi I noticed that huge ass post featured a lot of armor designs from Asian MMO's or mobile games. You gotta understand the market that produces those kinds of games are made from cheap developers who will price gouge all of their customers by any means necessary because those games have a life span of a year at most. They are by no means games that will ever reach a western audience or influence even their own eastern games.
They're literally the clickbait version of games where you download it because you saw tits, think the game is worth investing in and pay 10 bucks for in-game cash and they close down the next year with revenue for a new game.
Also don't forget the Dragon's Crown Dwarves
[img]http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dragons-crown/images/3/34/DC_-_Dwarf_Pile_by_George_Kamitani.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130527024329[/img]
Anyone can cherry pick images and claim the representation between genders is unequal. Might I interest you in some of video game's fine walking refrigerators?
[t]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FhzgSzVf1jY/UAhba8ypXUI/AAAAAAAAA_I/NNSUuclGJ1s/s1600/Gears_of_War_3_Personajes_COG_Marcus_Fenix_V2.png[/t][t]http://www.gametrailers.com/side-mission/files/2012/01/ME3_JamesVega.jpg[/t][t]https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Ma9a4d2909a6d80842ee2f131ba92c4eao0&pid=15.1[/t][t]https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Me3a47d27dc8d56bc6b1619bbf47d1987H0&pid=15.1[/t][t]http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/accimg/1f/c0/1fc080acae6816a6e5ea49e4d30067c4df538c0f.jpg[/t][t]http://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/210357-a-space-marine-could-beat-up-your-favorite-game-hero/Group-620x.jpg[/t]
Of course these cliche characters are always waved away by claiming it's male power fantasy. But I'm not so sure of that, I can't 100% put it into words but it's another one of those things that strikes me as ironically sexist.
Like, women aren't supposed to like being sexy? What if a women wants to feel sexy and play out that fantasy character? Can that not be empowering for some people? Think of Bayoneta. It strikes me as promoting sexuality as a bad thing for women.
[QUOTE=mooman1080;49038767]Anyone can cherry pick images and claim the representation between genders is unequal. Might I interest you in some of video game's fine walking refrigerators?
[t]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FhzgSzVf1jY/UAhba8ypXUI/AAAAAAAAA_I/NNSUuclGJ1s/s1600/Gears_of_War_3_Personajes_COG_Marcus_Fenix_V2.png[/t][t]http://www.gametrailers.com/side-mission/files/2012/01/ME3_JamesVega.jpg[/t][t]https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Ma9a4d2909a6d80842ee2f131ba92c4eao0&pid=15.1[/t][t]https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Me3a47d27dc8d56bc6b1619bbf47d1987H0&pid=15.1[/t][t]http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/accimg/1f/c0/1fc080acae6816a6e5ea49e4d30067c4df538c0f.jpg[/t][t]http://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/210357-a-space-marine-could-beat-up-your-favorite-game-hero/Group-620x.jpg[/t]
Of course these cliche characters are always waved away by claiming it's male power fantasy. But I'm not so sure of that, I can't 100% put it into words but it's another one of those things that strikes me as ironically sexist.
Like, women aren't supposed to like being sexy? What if a women wants to feel sexy and play out that fantasy character? Can that not be empowering for some people? Think of Bayoneta. It strikes me as promoting sexuality as a bad thing for women.[/QUOTE]
Both tropes are bad in the sense that they're both highly cliche (which isn't to say that they're actually harmful in any way, it just means that they're overused and it would be better if they weren't), but the reality is that in both cases neither trope is really overused and the people who argue that they are rely on stereotypes.
If you look at things with the correct perspective, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say that video games have the most diverse characters of any visual medium (compared to Hollywood and television, for example).
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]So if gender doesn't matter, why not do two guys and two girls? What is the incentive for going with three guys and one girl if gender doesn't matter?[/QUOTE]
I don't get why it matters in the first place? You're asking developers of an already well represented game gender wise to change one of the characters for the sake of it? That doesn't sound very progressive to me, and it'd just stifle potential creativity of those folks.
Also you conveniently ignored the rest of my post about the topic and decided to focus on a single part <:(
I should point out that you don't need to be the same species or gender to relate to or like the character. Most of it is done by an interesting personality and background.
Rather then well written females, I prefer well written characters in general.
I dislike people dragging in social issues like feminism and racism to guilt the developer into changing their design just so everyone can play their game.
Though I wouldn't mind playing in a setting where these social issues exist.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]So if gender doesn't matter, why not do two guys and two girls? What is the incentive for going with three guys and one girl if gender doesn't matter?[/QUOTE]
This thought process in particular is more harmful to the game industry than anything right now.
You are trying to introduce a forced quota on creativity. Honestly, try to see how this is a terrible idea, it really doesn't take anything more than common sense. Nobody who doesn't have their own agenda to push and is neutral on this subject would imagine this type of ideology 'progressive' in any right. It's just downright idiotic.
Late, but isn't the reason that there's a 1 girl and 3 guys in L4D.because, lore-wise, less women that were immune then men? Is it sexist that women weren't as immune or what?
[QUOTE=Dantz Bolrew;49040614]Late, but isn't the reason that there's a 1 girl and 3 guys in L4D.because, lore-wise, less women that were immune then men? Is it sexist that women weren't as immune or what?[/QUOTE]
I thought it was just because they wanted to roll with some usual trope characters you find in zombie movies (the biker, the veteran, the black guy, and the teen/nerd) and gave them a twist to make them more interesting.
L4D2 does the same with different tropes.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]
So if gender doesn't matter, why not do two guys and two girls? What is the incentive for going with three guys and one girl if gender doesn't matter?[/QUOTE]
Do you not see what a stupid thing this is to say? You're taking the premise of gender equality not being important and still imposing a quota based on gender. You're literally unable to view the discussion from outside your preconceived ideas.
I'll ask you this: What incentive is there for going with a 50/50 split? Why should a creator contrive a gender balance? What exactly is gained from having exactly as many men as women or vice versa? Why is constraining an artist's freedom to political or social quotas something to be desired?
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49038284]I do play games. I'm probing people's brains to see what they think a good video game is.
Here's what my friend thought:
He's a lot more vocal about it. I'd also add that Lollipop Chainsaw is a pretty big masculine fantasy. Again - nothing wrong with sex, but when women can't get a fair portrayal in video games it's not really fair. Also think the Bioshock Infinite DLC example kind of sucks because it's DLC - not the main game. And regardless of the number of video games female protagonists appear in, is this then an indication to stop? Is that enough? What's wrong with representation of women in video games, and what's wrong with [I]more[/I] representation in video games? What's wrong with [I]better[/I] representation in video games? Why is it that advocating for this kind of thing is grounds for a lot of moaning and groaning? I don't know why the whole female representation thing is inherently a negative thing for people, because in my mind it's the same as saying, "Hey, let's try to fairly depict black people." "Hey, let's get more black people involved in things." "Hey, let's try to give black people a chance to have a story." "Hey, let's show the world that we can look up to black people." "Hey, let's create a black character that is in league with the other people."
I'm not saying that to completely dumb down the fact that there are some games on that list that are really cool, and some of my favorites. Mirror's Edge for example is a solid game and a solid franchise - I think a lot of people legitimately enjoy the series too. What's wrong for asking for a little more of that over more genres with more companies with more characters? How about a little bit less of this - you know - with some stuff that isn't showing up in that list of 400 games:
[t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/965202/Facepunch/female_representation/DC-morgan.jpg[/t][t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/965202/Facepunch/female_representation/OM-samus.png[/t][t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/965202/Facepunch/female_representation/SC5-elysium.jpg[/t]
How about less tropes? Here's (unfortunately) a meme that explains something that I feel is really lame:
[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/965202/Facepunch/female_representation/rpg_armor_logic.jpg[/img]
Why do things like that have to be unequal? What is the purpose? It's not just that game either, it's a ton of them. [url=http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/]There's an entire Tumblr devoted to analyzing the weird clothing choices in media. (and fixing them)[/url]
[t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/5091f3d0883d124e141f4aee75a7fb0f/tumblr_nr2oe2iBbc1s9p45oo1_500.jpg[/t][t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/ff6f0a3dec8d4649fcc577cc3caaec8e/tumblr_inline_nqns8mLlQJ1rhlhi0_500.png[/t][t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/0094f200c0ed1f1480c782668894a94d/tumblr_nqm25ctIRI1s9p45oo2_500.jpg[/t][t]http://41.media.tumblr.com/10601ffaf90ab4261ac9cd7eef7100c3/tumblr_nqgjo07Icz1s9p45oo1_500.png[/t][t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/bafc6529f14e7dc1c8ebe77126e7ab76/tumblr_nqcno7XlaQ1s9p45oo3_500.jpg[/t][t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8b513e7eac45fa84507a5754c5286f5/tumblr_nq3zrc8CRD1s9p45oo2_500.jpg[/t][t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/d3d930065661b925713d71cfb2547725/tumblr_nq35244VnX1s9p45oo2_500.jpg[/t][t]http://36.media.tumblr.com/58b9d9a4313dfe521a507373533341d4/tumblr_nq1ogekoWy1s9p45oo1_500.jpg[/t][t]http://41.media.tumblr.com/bec58ebef4ce8e656c6448805167f18f/tumblr_nq1k8zaqHr1s9p45oo1_500.jpg[/t][t]http://40.media.tumblr.com/d22ed471b3414b0aaa544f6c703d8890/tumblr_no5xe5P9MN1s9p45oo2_500.jpg[/t][t]http://41.media.tumblr.com/03b5af3a78823a6e4ea42f8cfaf8c81a/tumblr_mz7005VfTn1r34y4ho1_500.png[/t][t]http://41.media.tumblr.com/bfe6bb34a370cb3ddc30f0f611f7f60b/tumblr_mzpi0qeLfu1s9p45oo1_500.jpg[/t]
Compare these choices to actual sensible armor:
[t]http://41.media.tumblr.com/847ac33e3b6adb106afde3eea2814218/tumblr_mn07fybjWv1s9m801o3_1280.jpg[/t]
For every good thing that's happening with women in video games (and every good thing I praise), there's a ton of extra problems. I support the new push to get women into video games, but that doesn't mean it's over. Simply adding women doesn't add anything - they have to be good, important depictions that aren't just for eye-candy or a token side-character. And just because there are people that break the mold doesn't mean no further change is needed, because we need more - we need a better ratio of games that are great with women in them and everything else.
[editline]2nd November 2015[/editline]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1454029/]The Help[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2481238/]Pussy Riot: A Punk Prayer[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2024544/]12 Years a Slave[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104694/]A League of Their Own[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056592/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2]To Kill a Mockingbird[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1014759/]Alice in Wonderland (2010)[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443453/?ref_=nv_sr_1]Borat[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097239/]Driving Miss Daisy[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0929632/]Precious[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088939/]The Color Purple[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116410/?ref_=nv_sr_1]Ghosts of Mississipi[/url]
[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139654/]Training Day[/url]
These movies are totally about minorities without being pandering - they're heartfelt approaches from all kinds of different angles that represents someone's truest thoughts about society. Suggesting that stories that focus on the unheard minorities usually end up bad is something that can very easily be racist. I'm not willing to make that leap for you, obviously, because I think you meant something else and aren't intentionally trying to be mean, but there's plenty of awesome and important stories that focus on the non-represented minority.
And dude, if they're not being represented well in the media, maybe someone should step up and represent them well in the media. Having the mentality that trying to start from the misrepresentation and oppression of people doesn't end well and encouraging an artistic landscape that doesn't investigate things like women's issues and racial tensions creates a cyclical problem.
[editline]2nd November 2015[/editline]
So if gender doesn't matter, why not do two guys and two girls? What is the incentive for going with three guys and one girl if gender doesn't matter?[/QUOTE]
this is the only good post in this thread
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Terrible posts. Quit posting in this thread already" - postal))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49040700]this is the only good post in this thread[/QUOTE]
Yeah you sure as hell haven't been making any good ones that's for goddamn sure
*shitpost*
"Yeah I'll admit that last post of mine was trash"
*shitpost mk2*
[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;49040715]*shitpost*
"Yeah I'll admit that last post of mine was trash"
*shitpost mk2*[/QUOTE]
Just because you disagree with me doesn't make it a shitpost
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49040720]Just because you disagree with me doesn't make it a shitpost[/QUOTE]
No because you're shitposting makes it a shitpost
You basically just drive-by the thread, post some dumb shit you [I]know[/I] is dumb just to stir shit up and then leave for another 12 hours
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49040720]Just because you disagree with me doesn't make it a shitpost[/QUOTE]
So we need to protect women from seeing sexualized characters?
Seems a bit sexist.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49040710]Yeah you sure as hell haven't been making any good ones that's for goddamn sure[/QUOTE]
Well yeah his posts constructs ideas better than any of mine do so I have to give him credit y'know
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49040700]this is the only good post in this thread[/QUOTE]
could you at least try
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49040720]Just because you disagree with me doesn't make it a shitpost[/QUOTE]
"Literally every other post is bad, only this one post I agree with is good."
[B][U]*** NOT A SHITPOST ***[/U][/B]
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49040733]So we need to protect women from seeing sexualized characters?
Seems a bit sexist.[/QUOTE]
I don't think seualization is inherently bad, it has to do with the context of it. Doing it for artistic merit and in a way that doesn't cheapen the people involved is good sexualization, making it so that it has a reason to exist. Having a couple of hired prostitutes talking about how bad their client is in a hitman game is okay, it can be used to illustrate how much of a douchebag the guy you're asssassinating is. Having normal female armor in a game like TERA appear as basically having nothing on them is just cheap and purely pandering and reduces the meaning of the people involved. Sex that has a good reason to exist in a game is completely fine; sexualization with no context as to why it's there and is just meant to be "hot girls with big boobs in game :ok: game sells" really cheapens the meaning and character of all involved, and can cheapen a sex's representation in media as a whole.
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