[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;27725310]Look at you basing all your facts off this movie alone. Like as if this movie has all the secrets of the movement hidden inside of it. This movement is years old.[/QUOTE]
When one of your first arguments is mocking someone for not having a job or someone using effects in a movie, I feel much less inclined to listen to you, ever.
[QUOTE=Hostel;27725310]I still have an open mind here. This is just a really tough tightrope to walk on. I could block out everything and stay moderate all day but I find it more entertaining to look into what others have to say.[/QUOTE]
Hey look, I said that way before you came in here. Don't blame me for playing the devil's advocate when you make the arguments you're making. I'm challenging you with a movie that I just saw and you you're not holding up well. I could try finding something that is not from the movie, but I'm pretty sure whatever I find is derived from other research.
[QUOTE=Hostel;27725355]When one of your first arguments is mocking someone for not having a job or someone using effects in a movie, I feel much less inclined to listen to you, ever.[/QUOTE]
Define mocking?
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;27725389]Define mocking?[/QUOTE]
Your trying to make someone seem like a bad person so there ideas also seem bad. I could be a 500 pound 5 year old with no friends with the IQ of a soup can and it wouldnt change whether or not the venus project was technically sound or not. I see what your doing though. people try to attack people they think are the ruler of an idea. you see this with conservatives calling Obama a muslim. sure Im not the creator of this idea but since Im the only one you can talk to and know something about it still works for you as a way to not use logic in your argument.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;27725389]Define mocking?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;27725389]Why do you get a job or do something productive with your life? Being poor isn't a disease, and if you really are poor you should stop wasting your time on fp and get a job.[/QUOTE]
And if mocking doesn't fit the bill, you were being harsh and the whole thing was rather unrelated. You might as well take mocking, because you were either doing that or presuming something, which you make you look more idiotic.
Thanks for the images from the movie with your take on them. I'm really thrilled that you managed to watch 4 minutes. This whole thing would be much smoother if you could watch the movie.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27725317]and that's when you stopped watching I see. Yea its trying to say rich people eat more and use resources they don't need while poor people don't because they don't have money. Its a documentary thats trying to make a point. You still have not gave a reason why the main point of the movie would not work (that is if you know what the main point is)
[editline]28th January 2011[/editline]
Like I said I want to make sure I have the time to do my work. this could interfere and 2nd Im getting a job in the summer. what does this have to do with anything?
that is a horrible excuse and a blanket statement that if worked we would still be having a king rule over us.
[editline]28th January 2011[/editline]
2 years old so what?[/QUOTE]
If I made a documentary about crime and I exclusively showed over exaggerated footage of black people doing the robbing would I be correct in making a point?
and the years old statement was a reply to "you cant understand the movement with only watching the first 2 minutes of the video blah blah blah."
[editline]29th January 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Hostel;27725439]And if mocking doesn't fit the bill, you were being harsh and the whole thing was rather unrelated.[/QUOTE]
Taking things out of context, you will fit in fine with the rest of the zeitgeist fanatics.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;27725446]If I made a documentary about crime and I exclusively showed over exaggerated footage of black people doing the robbing would I be correct in making a point?
and the years old statement was a reply to "you cant understand the movement with only watching the first 2 minutes of the video blah blah blah."
[/QUOTE]
Are you really just admitting that you have no idea what your talking about?
You keep on trying to avoid giving a real answer of why this would not work and try to find weird ways of trying to seem like you are right without giving any real point.
why is it so hard for you? just go I dont believe the venus project would work because blah blah blah. its not that hard
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27725481]Are you really just admitting that you have no idea what your talking about?[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about what the hell i dont even. I was replying to your comment about the "it was just making a point". No point arguing about you and your beliefs because they won't change.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;27725505]What are you talking about what the hell i dont even.[/QUOTE]
No what are you talking about? your posts are pointless.
[editline]28th January 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;27725505]What are you talking about what the hell i dont even. I was replying to your comment about the "it was just making a point". No point arguing about you and your beliefs because they won't change.[/QUOTE]
Thats the worst reason you have said this whole post. Its a nice blanket statement that anyone could say. You are saying this: there is a reason why your beliefs are false and you should believe what I say but im not going to give you proof and instead call you names.
The "zeitgeist movement" is literally communism with a new, environmentalist paint job.
Problem 1: It's impossible
Problem 2: Creating a world-wide resource based economy requires one world government with infinite power. ...Wait, isn't that exactly what these NWO nutjobs are worried about?
Problem 3: Money only represents property. As long as there are people with more stuff than other people, there will be monetary discrepancies, and thus an economy.
Problem 4: We don't have the resources or technology necessary to achieve post-scarcity, a vital component of the movement (see problem 1.)
[QUOTE=Sector 7;27725582]The "zeitgeist movement" is literally communism with a new, environmentalist paint job.[/QUOTE]
This is only true if you call every system that doesnt use money communist. thats the only thing they really have a like. Just because you were able to define it as a form of communism doesnt make it any less able to work if you didnt define it as such. in other words give a real reason why it will not work.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;27725210]It won't work because its radical and change of that magnitude will never occur on this planet for as long as humans exist. Not to mention they make today's current situation 20 times worse than it actually is.[/QUOTE]
How is it making it out to be 20 time worse than it really is?
It states that we are using resources faster than we can replace them and using simple logic we can see that the current system is unsustainable.
Then it goes onto give us a solution, one based on the goal to create the [i]most[/i] sustainable society. You might not agree with it but you must see that there is an fundamental problem with the monetary system and change needs to happen.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27725605]This is only true if you call every system that doesnt use money communist. thats the only thing they really have a like. Just because you were able to define it as a form of communism doesnt make it any less able to work if you didnt define it as such. in other words give a real reason why it will not work.[/QUOTE]
read the rest of my post
[quote]The "zeitgeist movement" is literally communism with a new, environmentalist paint job.
Problem 1: It's impossible
Problem 2: Creating a world-wide resource based economy requires one world government with infinite power. ...Wait, isn't that exactly what these NWO nutjobs are worried about?
Problem 3: Money only represents property. As long as there are people with more stuff than other people, there will be monetary discrepancies, and thus an economy.
Problem 4: We don't have the resources or technology necessary to achieve post-scarcity, a vital component of the movement (see problem 1.)[/quote]
[QUOTE=Sector 7;27725582]The "zeitgeist movement" is literally communism with a new, environmentalist paint job.
Problem 1: It's impossible
Problem 2: Creating a world-wide resource based economy requires one world government with infinite power. ...Wait, isn't that exactly what these NWO nutjobs are worried about?
Problem 3: Money only represents property. As long as there are people with more stuff than other people, there will be monetary discrepancies, and thus an economy.
Problem 4: We don't have the resources or technology necessary to achieve post-scarcity, a vital component of the movement (see problem 1.)[/QUOTE]
But communism still has banks, money, military, and major police forces. Also, the Venus Project city was capable of being built with the tech they had in the 70s and 80s, let alone now. It's also not clear if Venus would require a one world government, but yes it is what the paranoid NWO guys are worried about. The concept of property without monetary is sort of intangible to me, I'm not sure people in this so called new age of living would have the same definition of ownership. I don't have a counter to all your arguments though. Thanks for actually challenging me.
I sound fed up mostly because there are some who would rather be irritated and say things that you can't form a discussion and learn from. I would also like to clarify that I do not have an opinion of the film yet. I'm trying to rip some answers out people by sitting on one side.
I guess I should say peace and love now that I'm taking a break from this half-shit-storm.
[QUOTE=Sector 7;27725625]Problem 1: It's impossible
Problem 2: Creating a world-wide resource based economy requires one world government with infinite power. ...Wait, isn't that exactly what these NWO nutjobs are worried about?
Problem 3: Money only represents property. As long as there are people with more stuff than other people, there will be monetary discrepancies, and thus an economy.
Problem 4: We don't have the resources or technology necessary to achieve post-scarcity, a vital component of the movemen[/QUOTE] those were all assumptions based on you probably not watching the movie except for 4. well even then the video explains how we can save much more resources to the point were almost all good can be given but since you did not watch the movie I will explain this to you.
1 we will build things to last. most products are build in a way to eventually break down or else the company would never make more money.
2 we can build things to be upgraded. people always have to buy whole new consoles whenever a new one shows up. If you make something to be able to be upgradable then this is hardly a problem.
3 not letting object go to waste. here is an example. people who golf often have to buy there own golf clubs but yet spent probably less then 1 % of the time not using the clubs. by having golf clubs be at golfing places then they could be used much more resource effective meaning that you would have to make 1 gold club for every 100 that we used to have.
4 using energy properly. geothermal heating and the rest of the other ways of making poiwer would be able to replace fossil fuel but sadly there is no money in it.
5 making items to be easily recyclable. I dont have to explain why this is a good idea.
these are just a lot of ways I thought of real quick and I know there are others.
oh and about the communism thing Communism has money, banks, armies, police, prisons, charismatic personalities, social stratification, and is managed by appointed leaders. nothing the venus project has.
Problem 1: It's impossible
- No it's not (see that I'm not explaining myself either.)
Problem 2: Creating a world-wide resource based economy requires one world government with infinite power. ...Wait, isn't that exactly what these NWO nutjobs are worried about?
- You got a point there, but compromises and agreements can be made.
Problem 3: Money only represents property. As long as there are people with more stuff than other people, there will be monetary discrepancies, and thus an economy.
- That's the problem money doesn't represent property anymore.
Problem 4: We don't have the resources or technology necessary to achieve post-scarcity, a vital component of the movement.
- I'm quite sure we do, if all the resources that are currently spent on military are put towards this movement, I am sure that there would be no problem in fulfilling its goals.
[QUOTE=Hostel;27725699]But communism still has banks, money, military, and major police forces. Also, the Venus Project city was capable of being built with the tech they had in the 70s and 80s, let alone now. It's also not clear if Venus would require a one world government, but yes it is what the paranoid NWO guys are worried about.[/QUOTE]
The Soviet Union never achieved pure communism, which is moneyless (in theory.)
As for the venus project -
Jacque Fresco is clearly anti-war. But he wants a central group to be in charge of 100% of the world's resources in order to distribute them effectively.
Guess how you gain control of other people's resources?
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27725721]1 we will build things to last. most products are build in a way to eventually break down or else the company would never make more money.[/QUOTE]
I'd like an example of even one product this is true for (if you google it that's cheating.)
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27725721]3 not letting object go to waste. here is an example. people who golf often have to buy there own golf clubs but yet spent probably less then 1 % of the time not using the clubs. by having golf clubs be at golfing places then they could be used much more resource effective meaning that you would have to make 1 gold club for every 100 that we used to have.[/QUOTE]
State property strips people of their rights on every level.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27725721]4 using energy properly. geothermal heating and the rest of the other ways of making poiwer would be able to replace fossil fuel but sadly there is no money in it.[/QUOTE]
There will be a fuckload of money in it as soon as the price of fossil fuels starts to rise.
[QUOTE=Sector 7;27725741]The Soviet Union never achieved pure communism, which is moneyless (in theory.)
As for the venus project -
Jacque Fresco is clearly anti-war. But he wants a central group to be in charge of 100% of the world's resources in order to distribute them effectively.
Guess how you gain control of other people's resources?[/QUOTE]
By getting people to believe in your idea. and he never said 100% either so no he will not take resources from people. People would naturally want to join if it was better then there current system.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27725775]By getting people to believe in your idea. and he never said 100% either so no he will not take resources from people. People would naturally want to join if it was better then there current system.[/QUOTE]
No, that's wrong. People join a system when they have something to gain from it. There would be absolutely nothing to gain from a system that requires you to sacrifice everything you own in the name of efficiency.
Furthermore, in order to govern a nation, you must have a position of power from which to do so. Any major nation without a military isn't going to last very long on the world stage.
The "Zeitgeist movement" is just another social engineering pipe-dream.
[QUOTE=Sector 7;27725832]There would be absolutely nothing to gain from a system that requires you to sacrifice everything you own in the name of efficiency[/QUOTE]
Good thing you dont. were did you get that from? The venus project doesnt force anything on people.
[quote]Furthermore, in order to govern a nation, you must have a position of power from which to do so[/quote] No you dont. You need someone to govern in order to make laws and to move money. well we dont have money and 2 most crime would be gone since there would be no money.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27725872]Good thing you dont. were did you get that from? The venus project doesnt force anything on people.
No you dont. You need someone to govern in order to make laws and to move money. well we dont have money and 2 most crime would be gone since there would be no money.[/QUOTE]
Hypothetical time.
Lets say you're a moneyless government. How do you build roads? You can't pay people to do it. You can't pay companies to build robots to do it. You couldn't pay people to fix those robots, anyway. You can't build your own robots because your government doesn't have any employees because everyone would rather be living a workless life of leisure. I suppose you could force people to build robots at gunpoint, but that might seem a little counter-productive.
And lets say you solve that problem. Now what do you do when a capitalist nation starts to invade for monetary purposes? You don't have an army. You can't buy tanks. Nobody in your country is going to leave their problem-free lifestyles to get shot at in a ditch for free. If you did have tanks though, you'd have a fuckload of fuel for them at least, thanks to your highly efficient country. ...except you don't, because why would someone start a profitless oil refinery?
And all the while, you have people murdering and assaulting one another, vandalizing property, and committing crimes for reasons other than poverty. You don't have a police force - but it's a moot point, because you don't have any jails anyway.
Meanwhile, your country is dying of disease, because you don't have any doctors, because noone wants to go to med school for ten years just to be a good person. Even if they did, who's teaching them? Robots, again?
And somehow, even if you did have doctors, where are they going to work? Oh right, those hospitals built with tax dol... oh wait. You don't have any tax dollars, because you thought the world ran on giggles and pixie dust.
[QUOTE=Sector 7;27725957]Hypothetical time.
Lets say you're a moneyless government. How do you build roads?[/QUOTE]
Watch the movie and you will have your answer
[quote]You can't build your own robots because your government doesn't have any employees because everyone would rather be living a workless life of leisure.[/quote] First off robots can now build robots and 2nd not everyone will be jobless. many people find robotics fun. especially when science is premoted and people have free time to do as they like.
[quote]And lets say you solve that problem. Now what do you do when a capitalist nation starts to invade for monetary purposes?[/quote] we are trying to show the world these videos so that way many people of many nations could believe in this meaning that more then one country would be a part of the venus project and many to soon fallow. but if we did get invaded well we would be technically stronger them and if there are people willing to fight for there country they would be willing to fight for somethign that takes good care of them.
[quote]you have people murdering and assaulting one another, vandalizing property, and committing crimes for reasons other than poverty.[/quote] watch the movie like I said before it answers that one
[quote]Meanwhile, your country is dying of disease, because you don't have any doctors[/quote] not only would that be not true but it would be the opposite. Like I said before when people are smart and have free time. there will be a lot of people who would like to explore science. again watch the movie. also machines are starting to be able to operate.
[quote]who's teaching them?[/quote] teachers
[quote]where are they going to work? Oh right, those hospitals built with tax dol[/quote] fucking watch the movie. we dont need tax dollars.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27726023]Watch the movie and you will have your answer
First off robots can now build robots and 2nd not everyone will be jobless. many people find robotics fun. especially when science is premoted and people have free time to do as they like.[/QUOTE]
Almost three hours of farcical, biased, propaganda tripe? No thanks. I think I'll save some time and read the communist manifesto instead.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27726023]First off robots can now build robots and 2nd not everyone will be jobless. many people find robotics fun. especially when science is premoted and people have free time to do as they like.[/QUOTE]
Oh, that makes sense.
Except who's working in the steel refinery to produce metal for those robots? I'm pretty sure people don't do that shit for fun. And where does the metal come from in the first place? Are we going to have robots strip mine for us, too?
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27726023]but if we did get invaded well we would be technically stronger them and if there are people willing to fight for there country they would be willing to fight for somethign that takes good care of them.[/QUOTE]
Technically stronger? How so? Oh, right, engineers are going to get together, organize themselves, and develop cruise missiles just for fun.
The US has the most capable military on the planet thanks to the monetary system.
[QUOTE=Sector 7;27726055]Almost three hours of farcical, biased, propaganda tripe? No thanks. I think I'll save some time and read the communist manifesto instead.[/QUOTE]
So basically you are arguing without any knowledge of the subject matter? Please come back when you have watched the video.
[QUOTE=Sector 7;27726055]The US has the most capable military on the planet thanks to the monetary system.[/QUOTE]
This is the only point you made that was a good one and doesnt involve you learning what your arguing about. The same way that blowing people up allows us to find ways to help people. helping people could teach us how to blow stuff up. But like I said before we probably wouldnt need a military.
[QUOTE=SirQuacks;27726071]So basically you are arguing without any knowledge of the subject matter? Please come back when you have watched the video.[/QUOTE]
I've watched sections of the video, I've done plenty of reading on the subject, and I've discussed it at length with other supporters of the movement. And to be honest, I haven't met anyone who can actually defend their position without resorting to "just watch it, dude."
And beyond all arguments of practicality, the movement still involves taking power out of the hands of people and giving it to a massive, centralized government. I'm pretty sure we realized this was a bad thing centuries ago.
[QUOTE=Sector 7;27726055]Almost three hours of farcical, biased, propaganda tripe? No thanks. I think I'll save some time and read the communist manifesto instead.
[/QUOTE]
You automatically know its communist without watching it. Im sorry but I think you should just leave this thread. If you are not willing to learn what we are talking about what makes you think you are qualified to talk about it?
[editline]29th January 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sector 7;27726142]I've watched sections of the video, I've done plenty of reading on the subject, and I've discussed it at length with other supporters of the movement. And to be honest, I haven't met anyone who can actually defend their position without resorting to "just watch it, dude."[/QUOTE]
With the question you asked I dont believe you. The reason why we tell you to watch it is because the movie explains it. why should we explain something that is already out there for you to see? the same time being ignorant on this thread could have been used to watch the film.
[quote]And beyond all arguments of practicality, the movement still involves taking power out of the hands of people and giving it to a massive, centralized government. I'm pretty sure we realized this was a bad thing centuries ago. [/quote] no it doesnt but how would you know if your making assumption based on something you dont know.
[QUOTE=Sector 7;27726142]I've watched sections of the video, I've done plenty of reading on the subject, and I've discussed it at length with other supporters of the movement. And to be honest, I haven't met anyone who can actually defend their position without resorting to "just watch it, dude."
And beyond all arguments of practicality, the movement still involves taking power out of the hands of people and giving it to a massive, centralized government. I'm pretty sure we realized this was a bad thing centuries ago.[/QUOTE]
Sorry for the misunderstanding then, I was under the impression you didn't watch the video at all. And I think it is perfectly reasonable to want someone to have had a look at the subject matter if you are arguing with them about it.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27726152]You automatically know its communist without watching it. Im sorry but I think you should just leave this thread. If you are not willing to learn what we are talking about what makes you think you are qualified to talk about it?[/QUOTE]
Alright then. If you can direct me to the part in the film where they explain how their new model government works, I'd watch that. I'd like to skip the ridiculous drawn-out overemotional parts.
Because as Jacque describes his society, the government controls the world's resources in order to minimize waste. But you've stated otherwise.
...And that's my biggest problem with Zeitgeist, anyway. They spend so long bombarding you with sob stories and somber, disillusioning quotes and imagery that by the time they actually present an idea you're prepared to accept it as the single, universal truth. Like most propaganda.
[QUOTE=Sector 7;27726276]Alright then. If you can direct me to the part in the film where they explain how their new model government works, I'd watch that. I'd like to skip the ridiculous drawn-out overemotional parts.
Because as Jacque describes his society, the government controls the world's resources in order to minimize waste. But you've stated otherwise.
...And that's my biggest problem with Zeitgeist, anyway. They spend so long bombarding you with sob stories and somber, disillusioning quotes and imagery that by the time they actually present an idea you're prepared to accept it as the single, universal truth. Like most propaganda.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=17&setLang=en-GB&Itemid=50[/url] go to what is the zeitgeist movement? and for the video go to 1:30:6
I could give better ones tomorrow when Im not so sleepy. so good night tell then oh technically the venus project would be a form of anarchism since there would be no one ruling anyone.
[QUOTE=SirQuacks;27725607]How is it making it out to be 20 time worse than it really is?
It states that we are using resources faster than we can replace them and using simple logic we can see that the current system is unsustainable.
Then it goes onto give us a solution, one based on the goal to create the [i]most[/i] sustainable society. You might not agree with it but you must see that there is an fundamental problem with the monetary system and change needs to happen.[/QUOTE]
My estimates put things at at least 911 times worse than people think the situation really is.
I spent the past few hours going through the video again to make a point-by-point assessment of the inconsistencies and brazen misinformation put forth in some sections.
As a note, I don't see anything precluding the proposed system from succeeding, at first. However, it is capitalist in nature with a centralized governing entity that thereby gives it a socialist control system. They're trying to call a chicken a horse.
A major danger is that a very small percentage of the population maintains the centralized control system and could easily abuse that access to create a potentially devastating oligarchic technocracy. The implications of that could be staggeringly worse than anything currently imaginable.
Also, overuse of natural resources has occurred [i]many[/i] times throughout history. There is precedent. The only difference is that each time the magnitude grows. See [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse:_How_Societies_Choose_to_Fail_or_Succeed]Jared Diamond's [i]Collapse[/i][/url].
Businesses have incorporated all of the concepts suggested in the video. Some of these concepts have been around since [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer]Sumerian[/url] times. There is nothing original - these people are blowhards with a nice goal that's too late to help until the western world collapses and takes most of humanity with it.
Hey, IBM has been ahead of the curve for ages. There are thousands more companies competing to succeed and thrive, developing ideas that are far more revolutionary than the ones espoused by the Zionist movement. Or was it Zeitgeist?
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39jtNUGgmd4[/media]
Lastly for now, capitalism really describes a natural phenomenon more than it can be called a system in itself. It outlines a naturally self-correcting system (which also naturally enforces individual responsibility) which, when left to its own devices sans government interference, has benefited humanity during several brief stages of development. Whatever you want to call it, it has persevered for millennia and has almost universally been accompanied by gold as a currency basis (it hasn't always been available in certain regions, hence seashells and the like).
Get ready for the analysis, due sometime later today.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
